<p>Thanks, cathymee, for such an informative and detailed response. The services offered to your daughter seem to have real value as opposed to being window dressing. My child (a high school junior) has been drawn to large state U's as we shop around and I'm concerned by the size and anonymity of these campuses. My older child gets such immediate responsiveness from faculty and administrators at a much smaller research U that I'm concerned about what the alternative offers.</p>
<p>Thanks DStark and Jack.
We never thought when we started the search for D's college that she'd wind up where she did.First she decided conservatories were too confining ,then NMF came along.We found out about Honor's Colleges along the way and over the years became converts.
I happen to like ASU and the model of what they offer in an Honors College very much.
S is now going to follow that model in a different Honors College at a different State U .
I just happen to like large U's and all the opportunities they can afford.Something for everyone,so to speak</p>
<p>I am also an advocate of well-crafted honors colleges at large state universities for students who find them the "right fit". Cathymee's description of her daughter's experience in her state university's honor's college sounded so close to my college sophomore son's that I was left to speculate whether they were one and the same. (They aren't.) I am so positive on state university honors colleges partly because my son's academic and extra-curricular experience thus far has been first rate. A couple years ago. Dr. Gary Bell, dean of the honors college at Texas Tech, participated in a "peer review" of the honors program at the University of North Texas (UNT) Dr. Bell's critique of UNT's honors program includes a number of references and recommendations as to what a solid "honors college" should offer (with Cathymee's post does a fine job of summarizing in her post). Here is the UNT report which has major sections on Dean Bell's impressions and recommendations..</p>
<p>web2.unt.edu/ira/sacsr/static/docs/pdf/5-2.5/honors.pdf -</p>
<p>Here is a second try at the website address for Texas Tech Honors College Dean Gary Bell's comments/recommendations on the University of North Texas' Honors Program:</p>
<p>cathymee: My daughter is at UNC-CH and absolutely loves it. Really is a perfect fit for her, and I agree about all the opportunities available at a large school. She just thrives on the energy of a big campus, too. Something for everyone, and she also very much likes the diversity aspects that you mentioned earlier. She has had some very small classes, partly because of honors, but small class size has been true of non-honors courses as well. Definitely depends on the course selection, I guess. Her only large classes (200+) have been intro courses to her major(s) that she needed to take. But there were small recitations with those, but she didn't mind the larger classes. They weren't the sort of courses that called for small group/seminar style discussion, anyway. But she has never felt anonymous at all; then again, a large campus can allow you to be anonymous, if that's what you feel like for a while :) I can't tell you how many times she has said she is so glad she did not go to a smaller school. I think, too, for kids who are self-motivated and independent, who really don't need a lot of hand-holding, and who like the opportunities offered at a large school, and go after them, it's terrific.</p>
<p>S was NMF last year and chose to attend our flagship state, Berkeley. Chose it over a higher ranked private and over two top-tier safety schools with decent merit money. He'd also applied to the two ivies that he liked but was waitlisted and ultimately rejected. To answer the OP's questions, he is extremely happy with his university, as I've written in other threads this year. There's no honors college at Cal but he's been very challenged by his classes and by his peers and has sought out many amazing opportunities. (For example, last week he was able to attend a major political conference in DC, expenses paid for.) He has absolutely no regrets about his choice.</p>
<p>Tarheels!</p>
<p>:)</p>
<p>Some public universities are great. Some offer special areas of study. Many have a greater amount of diversity as sensibly understood. A few, but less than some think, have honors programs that are an adequate substitute for the concentration (not numerical quantity) of high-achieving, intellectually-interested students that higher-ranked schools are more likely to have. The more money they throw at NMSFs, the more I would tread carefully.</p>
<p>You will find loads of high achieving kids at state schools, not every child wants or is able to go Ivy or private, not every parent can or is able to justify spending the amount of monies needed for such an education. My son has nice stats but has chosen a smaller non prestigous state school over his initial first choice private. We toured the campus and he simply fell in love with it and felt immediately at home. Perfect fit for him.</p>
<p>"The more money they throw at NMSFs, the more I would tread carefully."</p>
<p>That was our impression last year, too. S could be going to a number of places for free, but geographic preferences aside, we were a little worried.</p>
<p>In terms of some unspecified "quality score" for students, every college population will be a bell curve, with more exclusive schools having a smaller variance with a higher mean. Students generally move within some fixed distance from their position in the curve (in other words, because of classes, interests, and friendships, students associate with people like themselves). So in a smaller, higher ranked school, they will generally associate with X people, each within a larger (though high) range of that bell curve, centered around their own "ranking." In a larger (e.g., state flagship school), they will associate with X people (generally the same number) in a smaller percentage of the bell curve, centered around their own "ranking."</p>
<p>This is a complicated way of saying they'll be around the higher "ranked" people to associate with, all near their own abilities and intellect (even the same number of associates), no matter whether they go to Harvard or U. Mich.</p>
<p>Plus, if they are toward the right-hand side of that bell-curve (vs in the middle), they will get the best scholarships, assistantships, personal attention, internships, etc... </p>
<p>Looking back on this post, it doesn't really make much sense, but you might still know what I'm trying to get at.</p>
<p>My biggest concern, for those who care about such things (certainly not everyone), is that the overall college atmosphere is what it is. If you are a music major in a school with a great department, that may not matter. If you are in an honors college at a school with low median academic talent and interest, what is your experience? I'm sure it varies.</p>
<p>Oh God forbid the highly exalted kid associates with someone of less than their own academic level...how real world is this?
Consider that an Honors college at a large campus might have the same population number as the entire 4 year classes at a small LAC..does that give them less esteemed students to interact with?
I'm out of this arguement.There are those for whom only a small elite institution will do.The rest of us will populate Honors Colleges and deal with the great unwashed masses.To each their own and thats why all types of colleges exist.</p>
<p>Daderoo, at a large state university, there really is no such thing as an "overall college atmosphere". There might be a rough time the first year if the student makes a mistaken choice for housing -- and if possible, I woud highly advise visiting the college in the spring before making a housing selection, to get a real sense of what the "feel" is of various dorms. There really can be significant differences -- I think I was lucky that I essentialy found out that I had signed up for the "wrong" place during a summer orientation session. A quick trip to the housing office solved that problem. I'm sure my mom thought I was nuts - but I had found my people on campus, and they told me where I needed to live. </p>
<p>Beyond that, students naturally tend to congregate around common interests. You are going to find students of all stripes, both in terms of social leanings and academic interests. </p>
<p>Also, the numbers simply dictate that there are MORE highly able students at any large university flagship than at private colleges - simply because of the overall numbers. MOST students can't afford private colleges; MOST students opt for their in-state schools. It is only a very small percentage of students that opt for private education. </p>
<p>Yes, the private college has a higher concentration of high-achieving, high-performing students -- you won't run into very many slackers at Princeton, while the public universities are full of them. But the publics still win on the numbers game. I doubt that there are any private colleges that have as many NM Finalists as ASU, for example -- yes, it is true that ASU has bribed every last one of them to come to their campus, but the net result is the same: if your son wants to be sure that everyone in his dorm shares his NM status, Barrett Honors at ASU is the place to be. (I do think that an argument can be made that anyone with half a brain would choose a full ride over paying $160K over 4 years for a college education; ergo: all the smartest NM Finalists should logically end up at the schools that give them full tuition scholarships)</p>
<p>cathymee ... you crack me up. Could not have said it better.
Calmom you make some great points - I think if I was hiring I'd hire the fiscally sound one . LOL
Unless you are talking about attending a school with admission stats really far below yours you will have plenty of highly intelligent people to chill with.</p>
<p>"(I do think that an argument can be made that anyone with half a brain would choose a full ride over paying $160K over 4 years for a college education; ergo: all the smartest NM Finalists should logically end up at the schools that give them full tuition scholarships)"</p>
<p>Any argument "can be made", and I am a bit insulted that calmom seems to think she has a larger fractional brain than I have. I know I have more experience than she has with NMSF's being bribed to go to a college that has a lot of them, diluted by not so academic types, who hate their "overall college atmosphere", consider it a huge mistake, and scramble to transfer out at their earliest opportunity. Your mileage may vary, especially if you are considering UCB or U. Mich. as opposed to certain other schools.</p>
<p>One good argument for a state school vs. an ivy is that some of the state schools will admit the high achieving kid directly into the state med. school after state school undergrad assuming the kid meets certain requirements. Then the savings can be doubled or more. And MDs don't get paid more for procedures if they had undergrads that cost a lot. Mercenary perhaps but real.</p>
<p>Along with other advantages of at least certain state schools that I and others have referred to above, I think a straight-though admission to med school would be an outstanding reason to move a school to the top of one's list. I know of only a few such programs. Can you name some?</p>
<p>PA Mom
Thanks...
I'm waiting to be flamed,or banned,or both!</p>
<p>Daderoo: East Carolina University offers (4) Early Assurance Awards scholarships each year that guarantee admittance to ECU's Brody School of Medicine upon successful completion of the undergrad degree at ECU.</p>