No Acceptances: One Kid's Story - A year later...

Parents Forum
141

Gloaming, I am sure it was stressful with lots of waitlists. I do not know your list of schools enough to comment or if the list wasn’t balanced enough or not. However, I must say, that I consider Rice to be an “elite” or highly selective school. I don’t know what your definition is of a top school or if you just mean Ivies and the top few LACs or MIT/Stanford, but my view of “top schools” encompasses more than that. Rice’s admit rate is quite low and is in the realm of what many would consider a reach school. So, congrats because in my book, you have done very well. I realize there may be several rejections and waitlists but it is not a contest to get into a LOT of schools but you only can go to one. You are going to a top school and I congratulate you and wish you the very best. I am sure you have worked hard toward your goals. I hope you can see that you are indeed going to a highly regarded university. Enjoy and celebrate! The rest is behind you. Now the fun begins. The college admissions process will be a distant memory, trust me. It takes on a life of its own during senior year, but come next fall, none of that will matter. You’ll be at a terrific school and your goals can be realized.

Best wishes,
Susan

142

Joeman, I can’t tell you how moving your story is. Thank you for sharing it. The amount of growth you have experienced in these past few months must have been phenomenal - and UNC (a VERY fine school, too!) is indeed lucky to have you.

143

Gloaming, I echo Susan’s remarks. Rice is indeed a top-ranked school. In some parts of the country, its name carries even more prestige than the Ivies’. I remember reading a Dartmouth v. Rice? thread where about half of the CC posters said that Rice was a better school than Dartmouth.

144

“I have decided that I’m going to work my butt off (1000 times more than what others call my current “overachieving”) all throughout college not only to let the elite colleges know that they made a mistake, but to show UNC that they made the right choice.”

To show elite colleges that they made a mistake–bad karma, waste of time and psychic energy. When they accept you for grad school (if you apply), that should be good enough.

To show UNC that they made the right choice–good karma!

145

joeman - one more member of your fan club here. UNC-CH is indeed fortunate to have someone with the insight, appreciation and humor you show. Their really, really wanting you and you really, really appreciating it is the stuff of which a great experience will be made.

gloaming - good on you, as well.

You three - joeman, gloaming, and andison - have all ended up at truly wonderful universities. And you have all three walked through the dark side. So you truly know how fortunate you are.

146

The lessons your son learned will help him his entire life, and you all might look back on the experience as the best possible thing that could have happened. Thanks for sharing it with us.

147

Loads of warm congrats to joeman, gloaming and of course andison! The dark sides of the odds game is indeed sobering and helps us all “get a grip” and get more real. Bless you every one for sharing with us and for helping us to think more clearly about this process and its pitfalls. Rice is a great institution and Chapel Hill is a great institution. Joeman, you will love living at UNC-Chapel Hill…you really had my heart in a vise grip there till the outcome of your story. So this Duke Mom sends you the very best…and by the way your young basketball team is looking really exciting…see you on the court and on Franklin Street.

148

This reminds me of my friend; he’s ranked 2nd at his school, had decent stats, so he only applied to: Yale (early), Harvard, Penn, Princeton, Columbia, and Rutgers. He thought that he’d definitely snag a spot at one of these Ivies.

He was accepted by Rutgers, waitlisted at Columbia (later rejected), and rejected by the rest.

He’s going to Rutgers next year, but he’s not happy with this turn of events. Furthermore, he’s already made enemies with a dean by telling him how bad a university Rutgers is (or so I hear).

I wonder how he’d have felt if he hadn’t applied to Rutgers? How he’d have felt it he hadn’t been accepted anywhere?

149

Envelopes…that kid’s safety was one he “tacked on” so he would have some place to go next year. I see that time and again. All reaches and one safety (often state U) and nothing in between. And the safety is not a school the student wants to attend. It is added as an after thought, in case nothing else works out. Every student, no matter how spectacular needs a range of schools on a continuim. As well, the safeties should not be an after thought. There is nothing wrong with State U IF, IF, IF you would truly consider attending. But if it is more like “I have to add state U so I am not left with no where to go next fall,” it makes no sense because you just might have to attend your safety (as your friend is doing) and in that case, it makes no sense to attend a school you have NO interest in. A safety needs to be a school that may not be your favorite or ideal school but is one you WOULD be happy to attend and that you like enough to attend because you MIGHT be going there. No reason to tack on a safety “just because” or that you do not like. Why bother at all? If you don’t wanna go there, why go? Why even spend the money? A student of the calibur who can apply to the likes of Harvard, Princeton or Columbia, can pick a safety that is not an “easy” school to get into but merely is a “likely” for that person. For top students, a safety can still be somewhat selective. But there needs to be two safeties. And surely, there need to be ballpark/reasonable/match schools between the reaches (Ivies are reaches for anyone due to their very low admit rates) and the likelies.

You asked: “I wonder how he’d have felt if he hadn’t applied to Rutgers? How he’d have felt it he hadn’t been accepted anywhere?”

While Rutgers is a fine school, in my opinion he may as well NOT have gotten in. It is not as if he remotely wants to attend. So, yeah, he didn’t get closed out but he didn’t choose schools wisely and if he had, I bet he’d have had a choice and the choice didn’t have to include Rutgers (nothing wrong with that school overall but clearly is not of interest to this student).

150

ellemenope

While I certainly understand that it’s stupid to feel bitter about my rejections, I do feel like I have something to prove.

It’s as if I am the kid who gets picked last for a game of football or basketball and would love an opportunity to make the opposing captain regret passing him up.

I’m going to do my best to put myself in contention for prestigious job offerings and/or postgraduate scholarships but I won’t dedicate my life to blasting HYPSM, etc.

If I write a novel in my later years, however, I may take a tiny subliminal shot at those schools.

151

Susan, Especially in view of the lessons of this thread, I have to disagree that a top student should use a selective school as a safety. The main CC site defines a safety school as one where you are virtually guaranteed admission. To me, any school with an under 50% acceptance rate does not meet that requirement even for someone of andison’s or your D’s unquestionably high calibur.

I believe that each safety should stand on its own, IMO they should EACH be sure things, and not combined for statistical effect. Or stated another way, two matches do not one safety make! Hasn’t this thread taught us that the unexpected can and does sometimes happen? Andison never believed for a moment that he would not get into Oberlin, but it happened. Oberlin does not admit strictly by the numbers, and it is likely that for any school with an acceptance rate lower than around 50% that is the case. Institutional goals can shift from year to year and in some cases, the year to year differences in acceptance rates is significant. Why gamble? There are MANY excellent schools that can be considered safe and are not state universities.

In fact, Andison had two of these on his new and improved list, Worcester(75% acceptance rate )and Case Western (71% acceptance rate). They were both fine schools but safeties for Andison. On the other hand, I would be concerned about someone who chose Connecticut College with its 34% acceptance rate as a safety (subtract ED, legacy, athletes and it’s significantly less than 34%) and I really am concerned about guiding people in that direction. Susan, I respect and value your opinions and agree with 99% of what you say, but I think this is too important to let this go without a comment. Am I really being too conservative here?

152

Roshke, a lot of what you wrote, I agree with. But I have to say that “safeties/likelies” are relative to INDIVIDUAL students.

By the way, I do not believe Oberlin is a safety school and didn’t see it that way on Andison’s list. His list appeared to be all reaches and two matches (WashU and Oberlin) though i can’t say for sure because I truthfully don’t have nearly enough information about him to make an assessment. His list did not seem balanced to me and didn’t have a RANGE or continuium of reach to match to safeties. His list would have made me very nervous if my own child.

While I agree that looking at the rate of acceptance is a crucial piece in weighing someone’s odds at a school, it is not the ONLY piece. One has to look at the SAT range of accepted students, GPA, class rank, and so forth for accepted students. So, for instance, someone who is a val, like my D was, may fit into a higher rate of acceptance for a school, along with the SAT range, and GPA than the admit rate overall. A school that has a 34% admit rate overall, may have a higher admit rate for someone’s whose stats are a a certain level in the range of admitted students for that particular school. Let’s look at something like val alone. A school may admit at a rate of 34% overall but has accepted 52% of vals who apply. If the SATs of the applicant exceed the 75%tile and the avg. GPA and so forth, the selectivity or the admit rate would differ.

Also, while my D had Conn College as a relatively “likely” school on her list, she also had Lehigh which has an admit rate of 48%. It would seem that between the two, she was likely to get in. And truth be told, while her list was made up without the state school, she was offered a free ride and Honors College and free app there and so she truly HAD that going into it but we didn’t consider that school because it was not one she would have applied to otherwise but she COULD attend and it is considered a very good school (has more out of state students than in state students). At Smith, she was getting some very positive vibes from many at the school and while it was a match school, she felt that at Smith, she had better than a typical 50-50 chance at a match school. As well, she had schools on a continuium of selectivity, which is not the case that Andison had.

Her list was:
Yale
Princeton
Brown
Penn
Tufts
Smith
Conn College
Lehigh
UVM’s offer of free ride and Honors College

As well, discussing safeties is just very very relative to each person. I don’t think of certain schools out there as matches or safeties in themselves but ONLY in relation to specific students. It is too difficult to discuss which schools another kid considered safeties in relation to my own kid. I don’t know much about Andison other than he had high SATs, higher I think than my own D, was accomplished on piano, and came from a Boston suburb with a fine public school. That is the only information I am aware of, not to say that is all that is in his profile! (HE LIKELY HAS MANY POSITIVE THINGS ON HIS APP AND SUCH BUT I JUST DON’T KNOW ABOUT THEM, SO AM NOT PASSING ANY JUDGEMENT BECAUSE I HONESTLY DO NOT KNOW ENOUGH ABOUT HIS PROFILE TO EVEN BEGIN TO SAY.)

I had to evaluate what my own kid had which was a very different profile (NOT BETTER but just different kids with different lists of attributes). I don’t post their “numbers”…but an overall profile would include straight A’s (4.0) in hardest curriculum available and went beyond the HS curriculum and also accelerated, several indep. studies, strong in all subjects but particularly noteworthy in math/science (girl), strong SATs and particularly very high in math, val, accomplished on two instruments (piano - 11 yrs., and clarinet - 9 yrs. including on state level and other achievements in music), band and jazz band with achievements, 13 years of dance and in a select troupe, 13 musical theater productions over many years, three varsity sports that she had played her entire life and was accomplished on the state level in them all, one of her sports she also competed in outside of school (training programs and events including on state level), student Senate, Class Council, French club/trips, had initiated two school policies that were adopted by school board, had done indep. studies and an internship in her intended major, held a job serving dinners at a country inn for two years part time, had been a youth coach in one of her sports, had been a paid teacher in tap dance at her studio for children, assistant taught in the elem. school, public high school in rural VT, several significant academic awards, well rounded type but nothing unique, and so on and so forth. There are intangibles like essays and it is not like I have seen the essays of other students to be able to truly say what their chances might be. I had to take my D’s profile and then look at her chances at each school.

She also did an in depth visit at each school, overnights at many, second visits to favorites, and did individual apps to each school and tailored them to specifics for each school in terms of articulating her interest in the school. The same amount of investigation, contacts, and specific interest was shown to each school, not just favorite schools. She interviewed for most schools as well (and does interview well). She had very good recs (some were of the sort of best in 25 years sort of thing) and supplemental recs related to her ECs and also her potential major (internship).

I think her results bore out that her list was appropriate and balanced. Here is what happened:

Yale EA (deferred, then rejected)
Princeton - waitlisted
Brown - accepted
Penn - accepeted and one of 100 Ben Franklin Scholars
Tufts - accepted (double legacy)
Smith - accepted as a Stride Scholar (paid internship, 1 of 50), merit award
Conn College- accepted
Lehigh - accepted, Asa Parker Scholar (substantial merit award)
University of Vermont -accepted, full ride, Honors College (1 of 100)

I never felt she was going to end up with no acceptances. We knew the reaches could not be counted on but felt that between the matches and safeties, she sure was to get into at least one. This list only makes sense in terms of HER odds, not someone else’s.

Andison is not only a terrific kid (though has his own profile which differs from my kid), but his second round of applications was a much more balanced list than his first year’s list and in fact, his results seem to demonstrate that (though we don’t know the affects that came with new information of a GAP year) but overall, he had reaches, matches, and safeties this time and his results were much more positive. I think that had something to do with it. He also chose different schools for the majority of the list.

So, while I agree with the general school of thought on what constitutes a safety, a list is fine tuned on an individual basis. There are no schools that are automatically safeties or matches, for example due to their selectivity rate alone. For instance, I have some clients with very very low stats. Andison’s safeties and my D’s safeties are reaches for these students. I cannot say, oh, they have an acceptance rate over 50%, so they are safeties. Far from it. Way more goes into my evaluation of whether a school is a reach, match, or safety for each student. The acceptance rate is a PART of that evaluation but not the ONLY part. Many factors go into it.

I only shared her case here to explain that evaluating which school is a safety is relative to each student and while the acceptance rate of over 50% is a guideline, the rating of each school involves many factors. Also, my D did have a safety with close to a 50% acceptance rate (not counting her state U which she also had). But she didn’t tack on one safety to a list of reaches. One must look at the whole picture…the whole list and also the whole profile of the student in relation to each school on the list. The acceptance rate for a school varies depending on one’s stats/profile as well.

I think Andison’s story demonstrates many positive things and ONE of these things is how his list on the second round was WAY better and thus, I am not surprised that a student of his level did end up with better results overall with his new list compared to his old list.

Remember, too, that it is too hard to say what is a match or safety for some other person without viewing much more information about that person. As I said, Lehigh was safety for my child (her merit award, which we had no idea they even gave there, shows she did stand out in that pile nad she also got a likely email in early winter from them) but Lehigh, even if it has a 48% admit rate, would be a FAR REACH for some kids I have counseled.

This post is not meant as a comparison whatsoever but is answering roshke’s question about what is a safety and specifically the safeties on my child’s list and how those were chosen. No school gets the stamp of “safety” from me all by itself (nor just by admit rate alone) but ONLY in relation to a particular student. Even then, a very strong student should not have all reaches and one safety. He/she should have two safeties and also should have relatively 40% reaches, 40% matches, and 20% safeties and an overall continuim of range of schools.

Susan

153

I agree with Roshke. I also disagree with the formula of 40% reach/40% match/ 20% safety – I think it reflects a mistake that people continually make in ranking college preference by degree of selectivity, and/or applying to some colleges primarily for prestige value.

While the match/reach analysis is somewhat useful in arriving at a list, the fact remains that acceptance is guaranteed at neither. Furthermore, colleges which high-achieving students designate as “match” colleges are also the one ones that are very likely to be concerned with yield, and thus vulnerable to Tufts-syndrome, and therefore likely to reject or waitlist high-stat students who they perceive to be using them as safeties.

The bottom line is that if a college turns away more than half of its applicants, you have to assume that they are turning away some over-qualified applicants as well as many under-qualified applicants. In fact, it may be that at a “match” school, one’s odds of admission could be greater if the stats fall within the 25-75% range rather than above it, because from an enrollment management point of view, that student is more likely to attend. Other reasons could also come into play – for example, most colleges are NOT need-blind, so we really don’t know how many well qualified students get turned away from their match schools each year because the college has taken finances into consideration.

So I think the best strategy is one or more safeties that the student is willing to attend – and every other college chosen on the basis of fit, with as many applications as the student fills comfortable with. Yes, the odds of getting into a “match” school are better than a reach – but that is small comfort if the reach is the preferred school – and no matter how you cut it, there is no guarantee of admission at the match school. (If there is, then it is a safety and not a match).

Now a college that would not ordinarily be a safety can be converted into one through rolling admissions or early action – once the student has already been accepted, it’s in the bag.

I think its a fallacy to assume that applying to more colleges increases “odds”. If I flip a coin, the odds of it coming up heads are 50%. If I flip a coin again, the odds are still 50%. No matter how many times I flip the coin, for each individual toss are 50%. Now, the odds that I can flip the coin 10 times and have it come up heads every single time are astronomically small – but since every college application goes to a different college, different committee, with different factors, you have to look at each one as a separate application. The odds of getting into Harvard don’t increase when the student also applies to Princeton and Yale; and the odds of getting into Cornell aren’t any better because the student also applied to Dartmouth.

So if a given student has 2 safeties and 10 reaches – and another student has 8 matches and no safeties… the student with the 2 safeties is the one who is assured of a place in the fall.

I can see how the viewpoint of the college counselor is different from the individual student – then “odds” start to matter. The counselor who makes sure her client has a good range not only tends to have a better track record among her many clients, but she also ends up with happier clients: more who got admitted to selective colleges, even if not to their top choice.

But from the standpoint of the individual student, it makes little sense to apply to a match college he doesn’t want to attend, simply because the counselor recommended it. So I think that once the safeties have been selected, the student really should focus the rest of the search on those colleges he or she most wants to attend. If there is a good range, fine… but if not, I don’t think that the student is any better off attending a match he never wanted than attending a safety.

154

It’s funny to hear someone post about Conn. College as a safety, because that was my daughter’s 6 years ago. Like soozievt’s d., my daughter was val with high test scores and with lots of other strong stuff (though not as varied as soozievt’s d.)—her interest from early on was psychology and she had some unusual ec’s including a significant amount of work with autistic children and leadership roles in community organizations relating to psycho-social issues. Additionally, (and undoubtedly, pivitol to the outcome), she did summer research between jr. and senior year in her interest area under a professor at Brown —no personal connections–got this on her own merits. The prof. got to know her extremely well, and wrote what I beleive weas an impassioned rec. for her. Anyway, at the time, we thought she had a well balanced list:
Brown, Yale, Columbia, Williams, Wesleyan, Johns Hopkins, Connecticut Coll, and SUNY Binghamton (tacked on at the end due to pressure from dad–double legacy–had no interest in attending and truthfully did not visit. I know, this goes against all CC wisdowm, but it was long before I discovered this site). Results: accepted to all (early write by Williams), except waitlisted at Columbia (didn’t persue) and rejected by Yale.

Now, bear in mind that this was 6 years ago, so things were not quite as bad as they are now. At the time, we viewed the three ivies as reaches of course, but viewed Williams as a reachy match, Wesleyan and JHU as matches, and Conn Coll and SUNY Bing as safeties. And the results seemed to dovetail with this thinking to a tee. Still, perhaps in the current climate, this list may be viewed as lacking in range, even for a top student.

155

It’s funny to hear someone post about Conn. College as a safety, because that was my daughter’s 6 years ago. Like soozievt’s d., my daughter was val with high test scores, the most challenging curriculum, and with lots of other strong stuff (though not as varied as soozievt’s d.)—her passion from early on was psychology and she had some unusual ec’s including a significant amount of work with autistic children and leadership roles in community organizations relating to psycho-social issues. Additionally, (and undoubtedly, pivitol to the outcome), she did summer research between jr. and senior year in her interest area under a professor at Brown —no personal connections–got this on her own merits. The prof. got to know her extremely well, and wrote what I beleive was an impassioned rec. for her. Anyway, at the time, we thought she had a well balanced list:
Brown, Yale, Columbia, Williams, Wesleyan, Johns Hopkins, Connecticut Coll, and SUNY Binghamton (tacked on at the end due to pressure from dad–double legacy–had no interest in attending and truthfully did not visit.) We did visit Conn. Coll, and my d. did not like it because of its lack of diversity, but could not seem to identify a desired safety that had all the attibutes she was looking for, particularly a very clinical psych program in a school with a diverse student body and that was in driving distance from home. I know that not having a “loved” safety goes against all CC wisdom, but it was long before I discovered this site. Results: accepted to all (early write by Williams), except waitlisted at Columbia (didn’t persue) and rejected by Yale.

Now, bear in mind that this was 6 years ago, so things were not quite as bad as they are now. At the time, we viewed the three ivies as reaches of course, but viewed Williams as a reachy match, Wesleyan (her second choice after Brown) and JHU as matches, and Conn Coll and SUNY Bing as safeties. And the results seemed to dovetail with this thinking to a tee. Still, perhaps in the current climate, this list may be viewed as lacking in range, even for a top student.

156

Things have changed a lot in 6 years. For example, 5 years ago when my son applied to Reed, we were looking at 75% admit rate – now its half of that, about 47%. (And of course then, as now, we would be looking at 2-year old stats while making current application decisions). Even so, he didn’t view Reed as a sure thing – but the point is that the college application process is far more competitive these days.

I’d almost like to add a refinement: a safety is a place where you have already been guaranteed admission, either because you are entitled to it based on firm admission criteria, or you have already been offered a spot. That would be pushing things, but in today’s climate it may be the only thing you can be sure of.

157

Donemom:

S also had Conn Coll as a safety, also 6 years ago! That was a suggestion from his GC. My S was by no means as accomplished as your D, nor did he have any connection with Conn Coll. We visited and S did not like it quite as much as others on his list, but could not articulate why exactly. When the acceptances came in, it was the first to drop off his list.

158

Interesting, Marite, and both our older kids loved Wesleyan (well before April, she knew that she liked it better than all the other schools besides Brown). So, I guess we’ve got both kids of the same age with the same tastes in colleges!

159

There is no so thing as a safety! My d’s gc started changing the term to “likely” about three years ago when admissions started tightening. It’s kinda amazing to see how many safety schools waitlist their top applicants. Also, too many people here on CC seem to regard matches as safeties, and I think that’s a set-up for disaster. Even if you might be good enough to get into Princeton, you still cannot call Haverford a safety.

I disagree that safeties have to have, say, a 75% acceptance rate. It all depends on how the student lines up with the applicant pool. In my d’s case, Smith, with its close to 50% acceptance rate, was a match while Dickinson, with a similar acceptance rate, was a safety/likely. In fact, we knew that she was morely likely to be accepted at Bucknell and Lehigh, with their lower acceptance rates, than at Smith simply because of the KIND of students these colleges admit. Her gc was extremely helpful by subtlely indicating whether my d. met, exceeded, or fell short of previous successful applications from the hs. I realize that not all students have this kind of personalized attention, but they truly deserve it, given how stressful the application process is. Parents and students should ask blunt questions in gc meetings.

The continuum is essential when drawing up a final list of colleges. Anyone applying to the Ivies should consider them extreme reaches, no matter what, simply because of the statistics. The very top LACs and universities (Stanford, Amherst, Pomona, MIT, etc.) should also be considered reaches for the purpose of creating the list. I don’t advocate percentages (40% reach, 40% match, 20% likely), but I do believe that everything needs to be balanced around the match schools. If a kid wants to apply to all the Ivies, that’s great, as long as the match list doesn’t get cut to keep applications down. If a student can’t afford to apply to that many schools, then the reaches should be selected more carefully.

We’re talking here mostly about applying to the top schools, but the wisdom Andi brings with her son’s story is relevant to all levels. If Connecticut College is a reach, then make sure the list is populated by enough matches to balance out the very possible rejection from Connecticut.

One other lesson from Andi’s story seems to be lost after the first few posts: select for geographic diversity if going to a “top school” is paramount. East Coasters qualified for Amherst should apply to Reed and Pomona. West Coasters in the Pomona league should apply to top Northeastern and Southern schools. Southerners should apply to non-Southern schools. And so on. The competition becomes stiffer when one concentrates solely on one’s own region of the country. Of course, that’s not to say that if a Northeast student really wants to go to school in New England that he should go elsewhere. It just means that the student should be aware that the competition is stiffer for him than it may be for others who live far away.

Another mistake I see often on CC is using a school’s reported SAT scores as a means of judging safety/match/reach. While those stats can be helpful, they can also be misleading. For example, most schools show a bottom SAT score that does not reflect the average admit. Schools that admit many internationals might have artificially lower CR scores because those students took the test in their non-native language and therefore were allowed greater leeway. Or disadvantaged students were admitted with lower scores because, for them, to get a 650 on math was a major achievement, the equivalent of an 750 from a highly regarded suburban school, because of their educational environment. An applicant from South Dakota applying to Columbia might not need as high SATs as one would from New York. Someone who published a novel while in high school (ahem!) might not need as high math scores because the achievement itself shows committment and talent. Students need to look beyond stats when applying to the best schools.

160

Momwaitingfornew:

Many good points in your post! I think our GC talked in terms of very likely, likely, and reaches. Some of it was based not just on S’s stats or schools selectivity but on history of our school’s own students’ success or lack thereof. For example, one GC was shaking his head at a student with perfect SATs who got into Swarthmore but not into Emory. If a high school has sent students to a college, it creates a context against which to judge new applicants. Our school apparently had sent many students to Wesleyan, Brown and Yale; but not to Emory. By the way, ours is a public school with a very mixed profile (the average SAT is lower than the national average) and not to be considered a feeder school to anywhere.