<p>
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documented cognitive benefits
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<p>Citations please?</p>
<p>"but a hobby does not mean that someone is forgoing everything else in life."</p>
<p>Hey Jessie, I thought the OP made it abundantly clear that the S is indeed foregoing everything else in life. Did I miss something?</p>
<p>tokenadult:</p>
<p>The original paper is here:</p>
<p>NewHope33: I was complaining about cheers' statements about gaming in general, not addressing the OP. And I still haven't heard any evidence that the OP's son's lack of motivation is in any way caused by the gaming, or that it stems from the son wanting to spend all his time on gaming.</p>
<p>Ok, I get it. Gaming is a good, productive force in this kids life. Gaming gives him focus, a reason to get up in the morning, a way of connecting with like minded individuals around the world.</p>
<p>Gosh, I bet the OP is glad there are so many open minded and supportive people on this board. Just what the kid needs-- being enabled by a bunch of strangers!</p>
<p>How does this Man eat, who pays for his internet, etc.</p>
<p>Love how gamers seem to need to defend it no matter what</p>
<p>lets see, jessie, he quit college, he isn't working and all he is doing is gaming...hmmmmm....chicken and egg perhaps....but what difference does it make which let to what....</p>
<p>the OPs son seems to be doing littl ewith his life, and it is time for parental units to get tougher</p>
<p>Um, that's a pretty narrow "cognitive benefit." I was hoping for a citation to something other than that study, which I was already aware of. </p>
<p>Back to the OP's concerns, yes, the boy is not working at a job, not taking challenging school courses, apparently not reading many books to expand his mind, and not doing any hands-on challenging hobbies. In other words, the video games are crowding out other productive activities in his life. That's quite a bit different a profile of behavior from a student making adequate progress toward graduation at an elite university who happens to play video games to unwind. This is the College Confidential website, after all, so presumably one of the OP's concerns is her son getting into a decent college. Can a boy get into a decent college with the OP's son's current profile of day-by-day activities? How?</p>
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Love how gamers seem to need to defend it no matter what
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<p>Not a video gamer, sorry.</p>
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the OPs son seems to be doing littl ewith his life, and it is time for parental units to get tougher
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<p>I don't remember saying otherwise. That's a separate problem from whether to demonize gaming for his woes.</p>
<p>If I had been eating luch during this thread, I would have spewed sweet tea out my nose. "Mind dimmed by gaming"?????!!!! I am not a gamer. But I have been happily married to one for 23 years. Back in the day, most of H's friends played D&D together on a regular basis. They were the school nerds. They wer also some of the brightest students on campus. Gaming was the center of their social lives, and a great outlet for their creativity. To this day, H sometime leaves the house carrying D&D manuals and a bag of multisided dice, eager to see his friends and slay some dragons. And yes, he has an excellent job and willingly spends time with his family. Over the years, he has discovered electronic gaming, and spends much of his former TV time playing things like "Civilization" and "Heroes of Might and Magic." I have never known a stupid, inarticulate person who enjoys gaming. As for girls not liking gamers, H and all his friends are now prosperous married folks. Nerds make really good husbands:-)
I offer the above so the OP knows that gaming can be a part of a full life. I also offer a warning though: most of the gamers I know refer to WOW as "World of Warcrack." My husband and brother both consider it hideously addictive. I am NOT saying OP's son is addicted, but I would strongly encourage her to take some of the excellent suggestions above. Gaming needs to be balanced with human contact and real-world activities like paying your own bills. Don't let this boy take up residence on your couch. Limit his gaming and help him formulate a goal. Good Luck!!!</p>
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most of the gamers I know refer to WOW as "World of Warcrack.
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<p>Wow! (in both senses of that word :) ). If that's what gamers think about World of Warcraft, what are the rest of us to think? </p>
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Gaming needs to be balanced with human contact and real-world activities like paying your own bills. Don't let this boy take up residence on your couch.
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<p>That's where I was coming from in this thread. I don't happen to play online games myself (unless posting in CC threads is considered an online game ;) ), but the people I know who do like online games also like to read, play sports, meet friends in person, and do more challenging hobbies than online game-playing. Oh, yes, and they are preparing to enter or already in or graduated from challenging college programs.</p>
<p>msreadalot--best comment yet!</p>
<p>Thanks, mommusic. I felt like I had to stick up for all the gamers, But because I'm not one, I did make one mistake. H corrected me last night at dinner. It's a game called "Everquest" that gets nicknamed "Evercrack," not WOW. I was close, though; both games are MMORPGs (Massive Multiplayer Online Role Playing Games,) which means the OP's son is playing with real people in real time. The key, H says, is to play with a group of people who have similar ideas about how much time gaming should take out of your life. Some actual addicts spend more time in their virtual world than the real one. I've had friends like this kid; very bright but lacking direction. I'm pulling for him--I know he can make it.</p>
<p>Thanks so much for all your comments and suggestions. It's hard to believe that for folks who don't even KNOW my DS, to make such bold comments and accusations, especially about the "addiction" part of the whole gaming gig.
Not to bore you too much, here's a little background; it might help with future comments (and accusations). This kid walked at 9 months, talked at 16 months, and had a 200 word vocabulary at 20 months. By age 2, you could hold an intellectual conversation with him. By age 4, he was using my Macintosh; we had a friend who worked for a software Co in Seattle, and he sent us various "educational" type games, appropriate for a four year old (ABC's, counting, etc.). DS was bored with (or mastered) these games by day three, and moved on to the adult "role playing" games we had installed for hubby (anyone remember Lode Runner and Prince of Persia??). Anyway, by day two he had figured out how to create his own characters and levels in these games. </p>
<p>So, you can imagine that we were more than excited for Kindergarten to start; we thought he would do great, teachers would love him, and he would end up in the "gifted" class, go onto Standford or MIT!
During the first week of Kindergarten, teacher said that "DS doesn't like to sit with the group and sing songs". "DS doesn't like to sit and do his worksheets, or read books about Brown Bear, blah blah." </p>
<p>Well of course, this kid would rather be rummaging through the junk box, building stuff with his Legos, building levels in his computer games. The first word out of his first grade teacher's mouth was "ADD".
So began a 9-year battle with school teachers and administration. This included various assessments for ADD/ADHD, behaviorial issues, depression, IQ tests, family counseling, the full gamet. Sure, all "tests" confirmed that this kid's ability was much much higher than his achievement. This typically spells "learning disability", and qualifies a kid for (special ed) resource. Perhaps; but NOTHING worked.</p>
<p>This kid basically just was used to failure, and had given up by age 9 to perform in the classroom setting. To this day, he's never had to write more than a one page essay. He squeaked by high school geometry, the highest math he's taken.
Two elementary schools, two middle schools, and one high school later, DS enrolled in an independent study program, and graduated HS a year early. Go figure.</p>
<p>Am I making any sense here? This kid needs something to make him realize that he his smart, and has potential NOT to become some slacker loser who sits around and plays video games all day. Something needs to spark.
Hubby thinks it needs to come to DS on his own. We can no longer "assist" him; we cannot take away the computer and free broadband DSL, because over the past 17 years, punishment has NEVER worked for this kid. We cannot walk him to the city college counselor. We cannot force him to sign up for classes. HELP. I'm married to someone who thinks he knows everything. I'm married to someone who thinks that there are too many helicopter parents (well, my hubby's parents were NOT around when he was 17, he discovered stuff on his own, and decided to move out at age 18 and go to Art school, with my help, another long story.)
OK back to my DS. We know he has the smarts for music. We know he has the smarts for computers. We know he has the smarts for "social networking" (AKA, the online community, there's a nitch there someplace).
BUT we also know he needs to enroll in some basic GE type college courses (English, math) so he can transfer to someplace for his "specialty" that he's going to somehow come up with on his own.?</p>
<p>It's tough if your H and you aren't on the same page at all irt to S's current lack of ambition. Perhaps you should at least agree on a deadline of some sort --- a time by which S has to either find an educational program to attend or a job that gets him out of the house. It's not being a helicopter parent to help him find some program along the music and technology lines that would get his attention, perhaps get him excited about learning with other students again as opposed to trying to teach himself. </p>
<p>You do remind me of my friend's situation, though. Gifted S drops out of h.s. at 16, almost 17. There was some time before cc started when he really did nothing, slept late, helped cook a bit, played video games. Parents told him to get a part-time job and register at the cc, which he did. Dropped out of cc just shy of AA, with mostly Bs and Cs. Taught himself programming from manuals, helped with the film-school projects of friends who did go to college, got a job at a video game store, where he quickly rose to some sort of asst manager and then, a few months later, quit because they wanted him to move to a more distant store. Mom in despair. By 20, he had moved in with a GF attending college. She pushed him into finishing the AA. (Mom loves this GF.) S gets another job doing something he learned in h.s. --- video film editing, and again, practically ends up running the business for the frequently absent owners. But gets shafted on raises and quits. Finally, at 21, starts looking at websites for colleges where he could complete the four-year degree and will start in the spring. GF, who has already graduated from a UC, will follow. Mom is pleased. </p>
<p>Interestingly, the dad was always more relaxed about the son's slackerdom than mom was. She tried hard to get him to see a private college counselor to initiate some discussion about colleges or at least some effort to finish the AA degree when he was in cc. S refused and dad wouldn't push. "He'll be okay. He's intelligent. He's going to figure it out," was his position. He was willing to give him a lot of time, living at home, to find his way. The S, though, was always at least taking a class or two or working at a part-time job, later a full-time job, while figuring it out. Obviously, he would not have met the highly influential GF had he not been out in the world, stopping in at the Starbucks near the college, where they met. So, I can understand being patient while he finds himself, but I would work whatever motherly wiles I could to get him "out amongst the humans" at a job or some kind of interesting class.</p>
<p>Gaming can be relaxing, just like reading CC and doing sudoku. College kids can get together AND play. I would be concerned with someone in HS or college staying up all night and not attending to business.</p>
<p>OP
I'd encourage your S to apply to gaming companies. Either work will make use of his skills, or he'll grow bored.</p>
<p>KeenOne, I wanted to post yesterday, but I didn’t have the time. The first thing that came to mind when I read your post was that your son does act on his interests. He does learn, albeit unconventionally. Your story is not unique among the gifted community. Goal setting, persistence, and effort are common developmental hurdles for many students, but they can be pronounced among the gifted whose abilities to learn quickly can shortchange their development. My thought is that your S is a young man who needs respectful coaching and positive problem solving to help him find his direction. </p>
<p>It’s not always easy. Our younger S is a wildly creative, precocious, independent learner. He is the kind of kid that never wants lessons in anything because he feels he can do it better and faster on his own. He taught himself piano, guitar, can draw anything, is a wildly creative writer, and a great actor and comedian. He has an incredible memory and a great ear for music and languages. At once, he can be impulsive and undisciplined, then terribly focused and efficient when engaged. </p>
<p>Sounds all too familiar…when he was young, ADD was bandied about by well-intentioned teachers. He would not sit still long enough to listen to a story, yet he could read at 2. Fortunately we discovered a Montessori pre-school where there was a tolerance for his movement and the ability to act on his interests within a set structure. We were blessed with skilled teachers experienced with bright kids. Without this, we feared he would be an endless hodgepodge of talents with no focus or extended development and a huge challenge in the classroom. </p>
<p>I’ll get off the Montessori bandwagon, but I cannot express my gratitude for their independent learning model that worked unbelievably well for both our sons despite completely different learning types (older S is one of those driven, hyper-focused, intense overachievers with its own set of worries). As parents, we embraced the Montessori model of respect and viewed our parenting style as facilitators in helping our children develop the life skills necessary to pursue their own interests. It’s not always been smooth, especially as they transitioned into public schools, but by focusing on life skills our kids have become disciplined scholars and skilled advocates for their own needs.</p>
<p>There’s my positive parenting two cents—switch your role to advisor or coach and sit down with your son to try to gain an understanding of how he views the problem. Questions: what are his ambitions, what are the roadblocks for his attaining those, if he doesn’t know what he wants to do, how can he do career research, what type of education does he need, where can he receive the appropriate education, does he have any holes in his education that he needs to remediate, are there any personal skills that he needs to develop, what resources will he need? </p>
<p>In my opinion, your son has a huge leg up by the very fact that he is motivated to learn independently. Now he just needs to learn a bit more with positive support. As for the parenting advice, I’m all for clear expectations, limits and boundaries, but I also think it is beneficial to problem solve what is going on for the student. </p>
<p>(I was a parent advocate for gifted education, and there is a ton of research on gifted underachievers. I used to get a lot of ideas to support my parenting impulses from many of these articles. I don’t have the links to resources on this computer, but check out SENG (Supporting Emotional Needs of Gifted), the Davidson Institute, & Hoagies Gifted for articles on gifted underachievers. Also look up the key words of “executive function” for practical ideas on self-organization.) Perhaps this helps.</p>
<p>Thank you businessguy and jessiehl for the practical suggestions.</p>
<p>KeenOne,</p>
<p>I’m really sympathetic to your son’s story. Appropriate education for all types of individuals is an issue that piques my interest. Plus, my H is a also self-made man. I view this as another positive. Helps me to understand the paths to success are many. Also ditto on the artist thing. We have a number of them in our extended family. A few more thoughts.</p>
<p>My younger S, the creative one, had this ongoing internal argument with “school.” It created a lot of noise for him, and we worked hard on helping him to manage his attitude so that he could make the environment work for him. Rather than micromanage a perfect educational environment for him, we helped him learn to “do school.” It took a lot of positive redirection. Rather than allow him to complain about how stupid something was, we taught him to take responsibility for his own education. We taught him to be resourceful. We encouraged him to seek enrichment where he could. It took a lot of work. He now “does school” very well.</p>
<p>While we addressed this stuff earlier, it is not too late for your son to learn to be resourceful. A community college is an ideal setting for students who didn’t quite figure it all out in high school or earlier. Many have fantastic resources to help students learn about themselves and further their educational goals, whether that be a 4 year institution or a vocational tech path. There are often study skill classes, career search seminars, & college counseling services—all with ample opportunity for self discovery. </p>
<p>The big question, as I see it, is how to get your son to seek help. I would break it down into manageable parts so that he can learn to be successful and build on that. Take everything back to a basic level. </p>
<p>Problem solve first. Establish a beginning goal to jumpstart his confidence. Make sure it is manageable. Then help him explore the possibilities at a community college. Perhaps he starts with one academic class. If he needs a carrot to motivate, add one music or personally enriching class. Perhaps a study skill class. It doesn’t really matter. The goal is to sign up for one class and complete it.</p>
<p>Other parents have given you other good suggestions. A job can be a real confidence booster and create a personal stake in his goals. Exercise is also important to establish routine and get them moving. These are basic limits that we model in our household.</p>
<p>Again, perhaps this helps. </p>
<p>(As an aside, we asked our younger, lesson averse S to explore the possibility of music lessons to take him beyond proficiency. For so long he was adamant that he didn’t want or need them. We kept on trying to insist on them as we valued the skill of deeply learning something. He eventually agreed to vocal lessons after a music director pointed out his promise. Then he started writing his own music on the piano this summer and discovered his limitations. He could play anything, sing anything, but he wanted greater proficiency for composition. He is now sailing through classical piano lessons and is finding real joy in his own songwriting. But it had to be his idea. That’s just how he rolls!) </p>
<p>I’m rooting for your son as he find his path. And I'm really off to get some things done myself. Best of luck.</p>
<p>To the OP-- my heart goes out to you. You have been on a long and frustrating journey with this kid and I'm sure getting advice from strangers-- even well-meaning ones-- is truly a last resort for you.</p>
<p>I have two suggestions to be done in tandem.... but I'll give you the disclaimer that this is what I would do if it were my kid; up to you to decide if I'm nuts or whatever. First, I'd get my kid evaluated by a neurologist who specializes in adolescents and then another eval by an adolescent psychiatrist. An acquaintance of mine who is a psychiatrist believes that if it walks like a duck and talks like a duck it's probably a duck-- even if the DSM doesn't think it's a duck. Sure sounds like some sort of mood disorder even if your son has not or will not be diagnosed as clinically depressed... so get yet another expert opinion before you decide that his problem is that he's a slacker or lacks motivation.</p>
<p>Second, and possibly concurrent with this-- gather up 15 brochures, catalogues, want ads, or whatever for a range of things. Try not to let his astonishing IQ dictate the content.... it can be a program to become certified in CPR; a 9 month program at a trade school ( auto techs are in high demand in my city and probably in yours); a 2 year program at a CC in graphic or computer design; 4 year BS degree at a place like Embry-Riddle with subsequent training to become an air traffic controller; want ads off the internet to become one of the "Geek Squads" at Best Buy;you name it. Hand him the stack and explain that he's got 6 weeks to make a decision about his next move-- job, apply to a program (or both);or he can hustle on down to the Gap or Macy's and get a job folding sweaters. You will support whatever decision his makes; he is free to live with you for as long as it takes him to achieve financial independence but you require as a condition of that some evidence that he's moving forward.</p>
<p>Then give him the 6 weeks.</p>
<p>You describe a very sad cycle of overly high expectations (given his natural talents) coupled with a whole lot of dissapointment and failure to go around. The fact that you and H aren't on the same page complicates things somewhat, but as they say in Al-Anon, "Problem drinking is drinking which is a problem". Doesn't really matter whether the games are an addiction or not, does it? The facts are that in your perception, the games are interfering with his ability to live a productive life by driving an ambulance, cutting hair, shelving books in the library, or working his way towards a BS in Applied Math or Computer Engineering. Whether this is his perception or not, and whether the games are just a harmless substitute for some other means of mindless entertainment we don't know.... but you seem to want to excuse the time on the computer given his very high intellectual potential, and truth be told.... if his life is stuck right now, the reason for the gaming is no longer that important.</p>
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switch your role to advisor or coach and sit down with your son to try to gain an understanding of how he views the problem.
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<p>I think 3K's has it in a nutshell there. The second half of the sentence is what I' haven't been hearing anywhere yet in the discussion. He might not see it as "a problem" (although Mom does) because it's all so comfortable for him now. If he could identify that there IS an issue, then he might better accept her as a coach and not mistake that for a nag.</p>
<p>The only good advice I gave my kids (they told me it helped them) is when you feel like you're in a tug-of-war with someone, Put Down The Rope. Pull the other person over to the same side, and look together at the problem you BOTH have. It's on the other side of the rope. Using language with "We" not "You" it's time to say, "Houston we have a problem." OK, maybe his name isn't Houston. </p>
<p>The problem you have together is he has no life plan at the moment. WHen he can agree to that much as BEING a problem, then you can begin to coach him on ways to solve the problem. </p>
<p>If he doesn't admit that it's a problem to be his age and have no clue which way he's heading, then that's where I feel you and your H should be on the same page. "Slacking" is not a real concept because you all don't know what he's heading towards, so how do you know if he's slacking or succeeding by being on the computer now? I'm taking into consideration all that's been said about the computer as his possible career but he hasn't acknowledged that or anything much else yet.</p>
<p>If you can get his view on where he is right now in life, and see if he feels that's acceptable or not, I think that's the first place to go with him, lovingly.
At the point where you feel as a family you have a problem to solve together,
you can work as a team on shared goals to come up with strategies.</p>
<p>you guys could just get inside my head, when I'm home trying to talk to H about this stuff. I'm just not a conversationalist, only a writer. Maybe I can copy and paste all your great advice into one document and e-mail it to him.
We have created a timeline for S, which includes various things with due dates, like: enroll in two classes spring semester, get a job within 3 weeks, make an appointment with the CC counselor, limit his daily computer time to 2 hours/day, increase his daily physical activity to at least one hour/day, etc. The problem, it all seems daunting to him, and there is no punishment if these things aren't done by their due dates, hence, the disagreement with punishment laws in our household.</p>
<p>K1- I'm not a big believer in punishment in your situation... I think your son's predicament is punishment enough. Imagine how frustrating it must have felt to be 12 years old, smart as hell, feeling like a failure.</p>
<p>Your son feels the pain of disappointing you already-- so forget that. Chuck a bunch of options his way, tell him to pick one, and you'll help get him on his way. At the end of the day, does it matter? I don't know a single grown up now employed in the field that they started in--smart ones, dumb ones, doesn't matter. He may start a graphic design program and decide he wants to work in landscaping, or may get a job as an aid in a nursing home and realize he wants to be a chef. But if you don't know where you're heading, any road is the right one (was it Homer Simpson who said that?)</p>
<p>And if the idea of an hour of physical activity a day is daunting to him (assuming no physical abnormalities which limit his stamina or balance) I'm going back to my depression theory. Even the true 18 year old couch potatoes I know can be coaxed out of the house with a game of ultimate frisbee or banging some balls around at the driving range.</p>