non drinker seeks school...

Parents Forum
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<p>I agree with crash on the issue of letting HS students get used to alcohol. It's the people who have never had anything to drink before that will get pressured into playing some drinking game, drink 15 shots in a row and die from alcohol poisoning. They don't know any better.</p>

<p>I think there are two kinds of "abstinent" students. There are the ones who abstain because they truly aren't interested in drinking, and there are the ones who abstain because they have 9 pm curfews on weekends. I agree that if the student is the kind of person that really isn't to the whole drinking thing at all, it IS important that they try and find a dry campus. Drunk people can be very irritating, especially if it's a daily nuisance.</p>

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<p>If the only issue were prevention of binge drinking, letting a child get used to alcohol at home makes sense. Unfortunately, a percentage of the population is susceptible to alcohol addiction, and it is a truism that the younger one starts any addictive habit, the higher the liklihood of addiction. The son of a dear friend was allowed the occasional use of alcohol as a teen, only at family events. He went to Colgate, joined a frat, dropped out after his third year, is jobless, and at age 30 is in yet another alcohol treatment facility. Both parents are sober professionals and community leaders and never imagined a child of theirs could become addicted.</p>

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<p>I realize that it is easy to blame an institution or outside entity for the mistakes made by our children but common sense should reaffirm what we as adults already know. NO one can make you do what you choose not to do. Have a D at Colgate that verifies that alcohol is present but choice is always present also. She maintains great grades and enjoys many ec activities. Also, another D who is a high school senior who has boldly chosen to not participate in many high school activities as alcohol use makes her very uncomfortable and unwilling to put herself in a situation she knows is illegal. I feel that drinking has been a college issue since the beginning of time and as in all things in life, there is choice. We can only hope that our parenting to this point has created responsible young adults who will push the envelope at times but not tear it open.</p>

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<p>Oldhat, to reiterate what's been discussed here, most of the posters are not discussing the binge-drinking profiles of schools because of the chances of their own kids becoming drinkers. The OP, and many subsequent posters, were looking at the different atmospheres of different schools in regards to how comfortable a nondrinker would be. I didn't see any one "blaming" a "party" type school for making their kid drink; the point has been consistently: the kid isn't into the drinking culture; where will she/he be comfortable? The answer to that will be different for different kids, but it has nothing to do with blaming, or having no "choice" but to drink.</p>

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<p>The purpose of the posting was to point out a possible downside to the practice of parents of teens still at home demystifying alcohol so as to reduce their liklihood of binge drinking when away. (The occasional use at home without mishap may lull an at-risk young person into complacency, leading to dependency.) Institutions are not at fault, nor are well-meaning parents who have, to their knowledge, no alcoholism in their family tree. Boys are at greater risk than girls, both because of their more protracted development and greater tendency to take risks, and I think it is important to counter the mindset that successful adult socializing requires alcohol use.</p>

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<p>Garland, I in no way missed the point.....MY point is that "underage drinking" exists at just about all schools, but that is not to say that there are many students who do not participate. Short of naming a seminary I believe that it would be almost impossible to come up with a school that does not have its party factions. There are schools such as CMU that seem to have heavy policing of it and strict repercussions which may help to minimize blatant underage drinking. Parents may want to check into the individual policies of schools their children are considering.</p>

127

<p>I think it would unwise to underestimate the differences between schools simply because there is a group at each that doesn't drink at all. Assuming a 30% abstinence rate (a little high for of the schools we are talking about, there will be a huge difference between schools where, among those remaining 5 out of 7 drinkers binge a minimum of once every two weeks and 2 are moderate drinkers, vs. those where 2 binge and 5 are moderate drinkers.</p>

<p>The institution is to blame to the extent that it condones (or looks the other way) at acts of public drunkenness, provides a strongly permissive environment for underage drinking, and doesn't carefully address potential health consequences. And the range among institutions is vast, even among those which are not "officially dry".</p>

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<p>Oldhat--then I don't get the part about blaming schools because students have choices.</p>

<p>Not going to recap one more time, but briefly, my D attended two schools where the drinking cultures were night and day (and the less bingy-partying one was Wesleyan, so certainly not a seminary). I know there's a difference, and I wish we had known that the first time around, she would have heeded the party rep of the first school, instead of being lulled by the "it's everywhere" mantra. Would have saved a lot of aggravation.</p>

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<p>garland, are you saying that wesleyan is not as partyish and your D was happier there? or did i interpret that wrong and she wasn't? sorry i'm a bit confused</p>

130

<p>I just finished my freshman year at Brandeis. I am a non-drinker, and found Brandeis a great place for me socially because of this. The social scene does not revolve around parties, and there are plenty of non-drinkers. I never felt pressured to drink, and a lot of my friends shared my attitude. </p>

<p>After reflecting on freshman year with my friends from high school, it seems that it is better for a nondrinker to be in a surburban or urban setting than a rural campus. The option to go into a city allows students who don't want to drink to get off campus, while the drinkers mainly stay on campus.</p>

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<p>estargrl: That's correct. Though Wes was by no means devoid of alcohol, the "party" aspect was much different, much less boorish and all-encompassing, and much more accepting of different kinds of people; a nondrinker wouldn't feel out of the mainstream, or need to find kindred spirits (so to speak) in order to have a social life.</p>

132

<p>I haven't read through every post here, so I'm pretty much just responding to the original question at hand. I see that Claremont and Scripps were mentioned back on Pg. 5, and would like to put in another word on those. I haven't seen too many west coast schools mentioned here (at least in comparison)...does your daughter have a specific geographic preference? </p>

<p>It's important to take size of school into account. Any idea if D is looking for a small or a large school? Also, be sure to check into the type of campus...do people stay around on the weekend, do most people live on campus, how big is Greek, etc. At some schools, social life revolves around local clubs and fraternity rows, while other schools have much more active on-campus events.</p>

<p>I'm a non-drinker, and beyond this being my personal choice, I don't really like to be around it that much. In response to previous posts, this is not intolerance. If a friend of mine wants to go out and drink for a night, and expects that to be her primary entertainment, fine, that's her business...but I don't want to be there. Admittedly, I'm happier doing a movie night than a party...it hasn't been a huge goal of mine to seek out sub-free parties or attend regular parties and evaluate the substance use.</p>

<p>That said, I do attend Scripps, and have found myself very comfortable in the environment. Scripps' is a no-party campus ("you can come home from a party, instead of to a party"...very true), with the exception of a few official, usually dorm/department/club-sponsored throughout the year (maybe 4-5 of these), which do include drinking. Other than that, the drinking policy is that alcohol is permitted for students 21+ in closed dorm rooms, NO common areas (this includes hallways, campus, common rooms in suites, rec rooms, dorm room with open door, etc.). It's generally acknowledged that if you're under 21 and drinking and not causing any problems, then there won't be any reason for an RA or anyone to come checking on you, but if there are any noise or behavior complaints (and we do have "quiet hours" in the dorms, which are pretty much enforced as far as residents want them to be), then it becomes an issue. In general, we're a very quiet campus, and personal discomfort is readily attended to (within reason)--i.e. noise complaints.</p>

<p>In 2 years, I have seen 1-2 incidences of vomit in dorms. One of these, maintenance was brought in ASAP and the issue was taken care of, the other, the students in question took care of ASAP. </p>

<p>Drinking does play a more significant role on the other 4 campuses (on P. 5, the consortium is explained), but the role varies. The parties on each campus are notoriously different. CMC parties are more likely to revolve around drinking, while Mudd and Pomona are more likely to have drinking/dancing, and Pomona is also likely to have a lot of smaller, private gatherings. The drinking scene on Pitzer is less substantial, but there tends to be more drug use and general socializing, rather than distinct parties. In general, Scripps remains quiet and students choose what they want for a night. It's also very easy to "make rounds"...i.e. just go out walking around the 5Cs until you find something appealing.</p>

<p>I do feel in the minority as a non-drinker, but I've NEVER felt disrespected or pressured (to any real degree), even when I have been at alcoholic events. There is no Greek system, so campus parties are generally sponsored by dorms, clubs, or groups of students, and they often have "themes" (Black & White, 80s, Middle School, Foam, Multicultural, etc.) and--depending on where you go--alternative activities such as inflatable "bounce-houses", sumo-wrestling, ball-pits, etc. One annual wintertime Mudd party brings in a few tons of snow). There are also sub-free events, generally sponsored by clubs or by the colleges, and most often on holidays (i.e. Pomona had a sub-free Halloween party with a variety of inflatable stuff...bounce-houses, velcro walls, etc.). There are also events such as Lindy Hop and MOB (Mudd Occasional Ball), which are dance-oriented parties where alcohol plays very little role. The latter includes 1-2 hours of instruction and is a semi-formal, ballroom style event.</p>

<p>Campus Security is pretty much always present, and there are policies such as the escort policy (call CampSec and be transported no-questions-asked from anywhere on the 5Cs to anywhere on the 5Cs). Students are <em>required</em> to report suspected alcohol poisoning (or anything related).</p>

<p>There are also a <em>TON</em> of non-party events going on all the time, weekends included: $2 movies (out of theatres, not yet out for rental) play all weekend, there's a comedy improv group, a cappella concerts, lectures/speakers (obviously not late-night events), band night at the Motley Coffeehouse (Scripps), other performances at the Motley. You can also always go to the Muddhole (non-dining hall eatery) and play pool or games, play games at the Motley (each campus has a place like this, at least 3-4 of which are open until 1-2am on weekends and 12-1 regularly), rent a movie from the Scripps activities office or the Mudd activities center (open to both Mudd and Scripps students), etc.</p>

<p>Scripps certainly does not isolate one from alcohol or partying, but it does provide a unique haven. Basically, as a non-drinker, I realize that alcohol does play a large part around the campuses, especially on weekends (which usually seem to "start" on Thursday, but really only go Fri-Sat), but I don't at all feel surrounded or pressured by it, nor have I ever felt that other people's habits and preferences are hindering my experience. Furthermore, I don't feel that I'm excluded or limited by my own preferences.</p>

<p>----That was probably way over-descriptive, but after the last 7 pages, I'd noticed a lot of different issues come up and figured I'd just kind of respond to all of them at once as they concerned my post. I also took special interest in this thread since it's an issue that I also thought about in my college-search, and feel has worked out well for me.</p>

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<p>Student 615 thanks! I'm glad you've found the right fit at Scripps. D is wanting to be Northeast, MidAtlantic. It would seem that you've described an environment she'd be very comfortable in also. So many of the activities you mention are what she'd find entertaining. She is looking for campus where Greek thing isn't the center of social activity,
the active on campus events and majority staying on campus weekends
would be important. Size of school, she says she wouldn't rule a school out based on that, but suspects that a larger school in an urban/suburban/town setting might be a good match for her. Thus far,
(early early research) she has interest in URochester, Smith. Gcs are really wanting students to look at UVM honors programs. Also, Gcs are
suggesting that seniors (D is a soph) read a book titled Smashed before heading off in August. I haven't read it, perhaps someone else can
speak to that. Thanks again for the reply, the description is helpful!</p>

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<p>My daughter just finished her first year at Case Western (on the Eastern edge of Cleveland). She had a great year. She found a great group of non-drinking friends (both male and female). People do drink, but she has not felt any pressure to drink and drinking does not permeate the campus. The atmosphere there tends to encourage freedom to have an opinion...so there is less of the "follow the leader" type students. Classes can be difficult, but that encourages the students to stay focused on classwork, and avoid hangovers. The students are not segregated into substance-free dorms, so it is easier to find others like you within the general population...and I think it also has a calming affect upon the partiers. Parties that do occur seem to be mostly at the frat houses. There are great restaurants within walking distance, and the campus is located in an area of museums--(science, art, botanical gardens etc) and a world class orchestra performs at Severance Hall right on campus. My daughter went to 2 different concerts there this year (Itzak Perlman and James Galway (flute)!!!)...students get discount tickets to performances...Not sure what your daughter plans to study, but schools where there are alternative activities and a focus on academics will tend to have less of a drinking culture. Some of my daughter's high school friends went to colleges where the academics weren't a focus and they had difficulty finding like-minded friends. They ended up lowering their expectations because there weren't many non-drinkers to choose from.</p>

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<p>Case Western was also brought up by gc, Ds reservation is with the travel time. We'd like her to consider it though. Thanks.</p>

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<p>Not sure where you live, but my daughter found that flying home from Case at breaks has been very economical and convenient. The rapid transit train stops right on campus and she can take it directly to the airport--takes about 45 minutes (the rapid transit even stops at the ground floor of the airport terminal building). Cleveland is a big enough airport that they have lots of flights in and out every day--although they sometimes have delays because of lake effect snowstorms....just something to think about..</p>

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<p>Thanks. We live about 1.5 hrs from airport in either direction. Located in New England. But still doesn't seem too bad. Many here head south and midatlantic (warmer weather!) and end up driving 8+ hrs to get back anyway, not to mention gas prices here.</p>

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<p>I still think Case is worth a look too.</p>

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<p>

My D is in her second year there. When she was enrolling, I remember asking Housing about "substance-free" dorm options. The response was something to the effect of "we don't need those here". A curious response I thought compared to other schools, but it has proven to be true.</p>

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<p>Mama,
My daughter and yours sound very similar. She could be described as a bit quirky in dress and attitude, but she doesn't drink or do drugs. When she was looking at colleges, finding a match in terms of a school where there was a quirky-funky laid back atmosphere AND where it would be OK not too party was a primary concern for her.</p>

<p>She considered a number of "officially dry" campuses. For example, Earlham was high on her list for a while, and is "officially dry." But what she found in talking at length with current students was that what that meant was really "pleasingly damp." Students still found way to drink, and in some ways some drank MORE because it was "hidden" from the administration. And, "officially dry" doesn't tell you much about the drug use on any particular campus either. (Earlham, by the way, fell off of her list for reasons other than this.)</p>

<p>One thing that was useful for her was that when she did an overnight at the school where she currently attends (Beloit), she asked the admissions office if she could be paired up with a host who was not a partier. They were happy to comply, and the two girls who hosted her not only assured her that it would be OK not to party, but that they hadn't felt their social lives to be stimied by not doing so. They introduced her to enough non-partiers that night that she felt she would have plenty of people to hang out with.</p>

<p>She did opt to live in the substance free dorm - mainly because she was told it would be her best shot at getting a single. It has worked out VERY well for her - the dorm is quieter than some of the other dorms, but hardly a nunnery. She has found a great group of friends there who know how to have a good time without partying. However, you should be aware that on many campuses "substance free" means "you will not drink or do drugs in the dorm" not "you will not drink or do drugs elsewhere." :)</p>

<p>Overall, the fact that she doesn't drink or do drugs has not been an issue for her -- Beloit is the type of school where there is a lot going on, and she also likes just hanging out with her friends, so she has not felt out of the loop socially. She is tolerant when others want to indulge, and there are certainly plenty of Beloit students who do indulge, but it will never be her thing. She finds that a simple "no thanks" suffices and has, in fact, been told on several occasions that it is "cool" that she doesn't drink or do drugs. She does sometimes go to campus parties where there is drinking and drugs, but again, she has not felt pressure to do anything she does not want to do. </p>

<p>But, my daughter is a very strong-willed person who knows herself well and sticks to what is right for her. She is not someone prone to peer pressure - never has been, never will be. If I felt my child was likely to be easily influenced by the behavior of others and peer pressure, I would be more concerned about this issue. But, it sounds like your daughter doesn't fall into that category, so I would not overly focus on this issue in the search for a college home.</p>

<p>That said, in reading the description you gave of your daughter, the school that jumped right into my mind was Smith College in Mass. :)</p>