non drinker seeks school...

Parents Forum
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<p>This is largely true in my experience.</p>

<p>Edited to add: Sybbie, I don't think that colleges should somehow adjust their admissions standards to prevent drinkers from enrolling. I (and other posters) are just suggesting that colleges differ greatly when it comes to the alcohol culture, and that prospective students who care about this issue would be wise to keep it in mind when they're choosing a school.</p>

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<p>I have not read every single post here but I think that AFan nicely summarized the posts that were ON topic as to what the OP was asking about. It is one thing to look at many sides of an issue and to voice an opinion and quite another to argue and point fingers at others for having opinion. It is also quite another thing to attack the character of other posters. This sort of posting INCITES an argumentative tone, rather than the sharing of perspectives. Keep to the issues please. Voice opinions with courtesy. I think ALMOST everyone does this but the ones who are not are affecting the tone of threads like this one which began with a very legitimate question. And I have heard some very legitimate advice and points of view. When written with respect and courtesy, any point of view is welcomed. When becoming intolerant of others, that is where the line is drawn. Think about it. THANKS!</p>

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<p>Thank you sybbie.</p>

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<p>Sybbie:</p>

<p>You overlooked a couple of the stats from the survey.</p>

<p>When asked how many drinks they had the last time they went out to socialize, </p>

<p>37% said 5 or more drinks
27% said 6 or more drinks
22% said 7 or more drinks
18% said 8 or more drinks
13% said 9 or more drinks
12% said 10 or more drinks
7% said 11 or more drinks</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Ethestats/data/images/g3_600.jpg%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/~thestats/data/images/g3_600.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The Saturday night "social norms" stats were encouraging. After all, the point of "social norms" marketing is to convince kids that there really isn't that much drinking.</p>

<p>But, in 2001, they asked about the 7 days prior to the survey.</p>

<p>On Saturday night:
24.4 % had 5 or more drinks
10.1% had 10 or more drinks</p>

<p>On Friday night:
27.3% had 5 or more drinks
8.6% had 10 or more drinks</p>

<p>On Wednesday night:
17.2% had 5 or more drinks
6.2% had 10 or more drinks</p>

<p>Of the drinkers on each night, the average number of drinks they had:</p>

<p>Sunday: 4.2 drinks average
Monday: 5.0 drinks average
Tuesday: 5.2 drinks average
Wednesday: 5.5 drinks average
Thursday: 4.5 drinks average
Friday: 5.7 drinks average
Saturday: 5.9 drinks average</p>

<p><a href="http://www.dartmouth.edu/%7Ethestats/data/images/g2_600.jpg%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.dartmouth.edu/~thestats/data/images/g2_600.jpg&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The problem at all of these campuses is not that a lot of kids are drinking moderately. It is the number of kids that are drinking with a vengeance. It is easy to see how 1 in 5 pukes in a public place from drinking each year. Or how it could be that 1 in 10 pukes so that they can drink more.</p>

<p>Think about it. You come back to your dorm floor from a movie on Saturday night. Of the 20 kids on your hall, 10 of them have been drinking, 5 of them are good and drunk (5+ drinks) and 2 of them are staggering, sloppy, pukin' drunk (10+ drinks).</p>

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<p>
[quote]
all lived in Willets

[/quote]
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<p>Yep. Willets has been the party dorm at Swarthmore going back at least 3 decades. They screwed up when they built the dorm in the 1950s and made it mostly doubles. With few singles, it is the one dorm on campus that has a minimal concentration of juniors and seniors. The combination of mostly freshmen and sophmores makes it the closest thing to a typical "freshman" dorm at Swarthmore and, hence, the party reputation. Needless to say, they haven't repeated that architectural mistake with any of the four dorms built since Willets.</p>

<p>The Dean of Housing has been somewhat successful in toning down the Willets scene in recent years by filling several entire halls in the dorm with self-described "quieter" freshmen, thereby displacing other freshmen in small pockets around campus. That has reduced the critical mass needed to achieve combustion in the dorm. It is still the most "social" dorm (a euphemism), but students from the last few years say that it's not that bad, especially on the upper floors. General concensus is that it is a mere shadow of its former glory as a party dorm.</p>

<p>It is generally one of the last dorms selected in the sophmore housing lottery, but this year was unusually popular. It's about the only shot a sizeable group of freshmen have for keeping together as sophmores, although even that is easier said than done.</p>

<p>It's hard to reach a combustion point of kids gone wild in the other dorms because they have high percentages of juniors and seniors to keep the young'ins in check. For example, a group of frat boys decided to venture out and "go Animal House" in one of the dorms one night last fall (it is has a big open stairway, perfect for making pledges drink and run up and down stairs 'til they puke -- yippee, boy, some fun!). </p>

<p>What they didn't count on was that several of upperclassmen in the dorm were buddies with the Dean. By the end of the week, the frat was wishing it had stayed in its frat house as their little game fell under the college's definition of hazing.</p>

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<p>Sybbie, I heartily endorse your comments. The implication that kids who go to Dartmouth or Williams will be swept up in a repugnant maelstrom of alcoholic abuse is just plain silly. My son started Williams two years ago as a light drinker and he's still a light drinker. His friends, including several athletes, are light or non-drinkers. They have in no way been marginalized socially. </p>

<p>Has he ever been inconvenienced or annoyed by a fellow student's boorish behavior? Most likely, yes. Has he ever overindulged himself? Most likely, yes. Would it even occur to him to wish himself in another environment because of alcohol related issues? Emphatically no. This schism between schools that are characterized by lug-headed bingeing abusers and schools that are characterized by clearheaded, sensible intellectuals brings to mind the Highlights series that we loved so well -- Goofus and Gallant. The real situation is not so black and white.</p>

<p>There are many valid reasons NOT to choose Williams, but fear that a culture of abusive drinking will negatively impact your college experience is not one of them. If you believe that social life at Williams is overwhelmingly focused on excessive drinking, you have been misinformed. I am only speaking for Williams because that's where I have the personal connection, but I suspect that you could substitute many other college names. If anyone would like more information, please pm me.</p>

<p>Speckledegg, where did your son end up?</p>

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<p>Great post momrath! </p>

<p>What I appreciate is that you are sharing information from direct experience, not some perceived notion based on useless statistics.</p>

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<p>Momrath, he is going to Middlebury. We looked very closely at Williams, possibly the most amazing LAC ever, but my son refused to apply. It had nothing to do with campus social life. He felt he wasn't competitive given the strength of other accepted applicants from his high school who have had an average 3.95 GPA (thank you Naviance) over the last 5 years combined with state-level athletics. That is a discussion for another thread, touching on building a realistic list, using scattergrams, shooting high enough without diminishing oneself, etc. </p>

<p>Anyway, after noticing on this board that Williams (and Dartmouth) were repeatedly mentioned on alcohol-related threads, I did spend time looking into this, which I did with all of the schools anyway. I used criteria learned from this board as possible factors in campus alcohol use: freshman living arrangements, % of student body living on/off campus, % Greek/non-Greek, % athlete/non-athlete, preppie indices, location, etc. Besides reading websites and viewbooks for ways that the student body and administration had addressed the issue, and the direction they were trying to go, I looked at the reports and % posted by sybbie and i-dad, Wechsler, the anti-Wechslers, public safety reports, student newspapers, student blogs, old yearbooks, college guides, and talked to students and parents to try to get an picture of the social life. </p>

<p>Debates about which schools have the healthiest campus culture can rage thread after thread. I urge everyone to listen, then do your own research before jumping to conclusions. I came to my own conclusions about how my own kid might engage academically and socially at various schools. Of course this informed the list of schools to which he applied. I don't expect to breathe down his neck next year but I will be paying attention. He will need to make his own decisions about how he spends his time, how much and how often he drinks, and etc. Drinking is just one aspect of the total experience. Is there drinking at Middlebury? Absolutely. Do I expect that my son will drink at college? Yes. Do I expect that he will experience some alcohol-related problems such as mess, noise, and sickness in the dorm? Yes. Do I expect that he will be a big contributor to the mess, noise, and sickness? No. Do I expect that alcohol issues will define his college experience? No. I feel fortunate that he is heading to a school that seems to be an excellent fit for him.</p>

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<p>You may well be right, but I'm sure the parents of the future troublemakers would say the same. The students puking in the hallway or peeing from a third-floor window have parents too, and every single one of those parents is in the dark and believes their kid is one of the good kids (at least until there's an arrest, or in my next-door-neighbor's case, a broken back following a drunken fall from a dorm fire escape). It has to be someone's kid.</p>

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<p>I don't think anyone on this thread has suggested anything of the kind. Our point has been that the number of heavy drinkers varies from school to school, and that this can affect whether that college's social scene is the best fit for certain students. Do you disagree with that?</p>

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<p>Good point & good question, Hanna.</p>

<p>Not to demonize ANY school nor to imply that non-drinkers can't find fun anywhere -- but at some schools, finding a circle of friends who don't drink & lots of appealing activities that don't involve drinking will absolutely be more of a challenge.</p>

<p>Again, I think the biggest factors involve isolation, school population size, and # of fun social options other than parties (movies, plays, music, lectures, clubs, etc.) </p>

<p>However, a "party" school with a tolerant and diverse student body might be quite comfortable for those non-drinkers who don't mind being in the minority. So long as a non-drinker can feel comfortable at a party without drinking, he might not need a dozen other social options for the evening.</p>

<p>My experience in college was that I did not drink for my first semester (mostly because I was afraid of getting bad grades.) Though Brown is not stereotyped as a "drinking culture school," <em>everyone</em> (freshmen) went to frat parties & I went too. Nobody seemed to know or care whether or not I was drinking water or beer. I had plenty of fun without getting drunk. It was a self-reinforcing choice because I saw how idiotic other kids became as the evenings wore on. </p>

<p>OTOH, I had partied in HS enough to be a little sick of that by college-- and I am not the type of person to need to follow a crowd.</p>

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<p>"You may well be right, but I'm sure the parents of the future troublemakers would say the same. The students puking in the hallway or peeing from a third-floor window have parents too, and every single one of those parents is in the dark and believes their kid is one of the good kids (at least until there's an arrest, or in my next-door-neighbor's case, a broken back following a drunken fall from a dorm fire escape). It has to be someone's kid."</p>

<p>This is a rather loaded paragraph and I am choosing to let it slide.</p>

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<p>I think the point is that many parents have no actual clue what their kids are doing despite all beliefs to the contrary.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.madison.com/tct/opinion/column/zaleski/index.php?ntid=39489&ntpid=0%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.madison.com/tct/opinion/column/zaleski/index.php?ntid=39489&ntpid=0&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p><<i think="" the="" point="" is="" that="" many="" parents="" have="" no="" actual="" clue="" what="" their="" kids="" are="" doing="" despite="" all="" beliefs="" to="" contrary.="">></i></p><i think="" the="" point="" is="" that="" many="" parents="" have="" no="" actual="" clue="" what="" their="" kids="" are="" doing="" despite="" all="" beliefs="" to="" contrary.="">

<p>I know what my kids are doing. But more importantly, they know what they are doing.</p>
</i>

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<p>barrons, that link is heartbreaking.</p>

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<p>I have two older children who have finished college and two current Junior boys and have researched and pondered the alcohol question extensively because of a history of alcoholism and liver disease in the family lines. My advice is to seek a highly diverse community. My Asian friends tell me that approximately half of Asians do not metabolize alcohol efficiently (resulting in face flushing, etc.) and therefore drink little. I found statistics showing drinking by a much lower than average percent of the student body at (highly Asian) U. C. Davis, compared to non-California state universities. Many of my oldest child's friends at MIT were Asian and Indian, and they partied extensively without getting drunk. My second child's friends were mainly Caucasian, and their parties revolved around alcohol. By the way, we spent several days checking out Furman, and the consensus of students there was that half the student body engaged in heavy drinking - off campus. The comments made earlier on Pepperdine were also accurate. I agree with those who advise choosing a large university. Although one son originally wanted a LAC, he is realizing that the campus community can be so homogenous that it is impossible to escape the primary culture.</p>

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<p>to iggal</p>

<p>thanks for the info from someone whose been through this. Small, mid, large...I think D could be happy at a variety of schools, she'd like one with good academics, and where heavy drinking didn't necessarily define the social scene. I think you're right about seeking a diverse community. Originally from NYC, now in
NE and we note quite a difference in alcohol use among teens. Different in the way they drink as well as the frequency. Of course,
there is less to do here, fewer alternatives, and far less diversity in population.</p>

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<p>That story on the link is heartbreaking and devastating. I can't imagine the hell her parents are in.</p>

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<p>I think IDAD makes good points on this subject. There are schools where alcohol use dominates the social scene and while we can say that not every student drinks at these schools I would think those who prefer to avoid alcohol abuse may have a better college experience at schools with more alternatives. </p>

<p>The Princeton Review guide, under the social life sections, gives a good impression of schools where drinking is huge. Many student fall into the frat/party scene because it is right there in front of them, where as planning an alternative off or on campus social experience in some settings, particularly more rural ones, requires work. Schools that have reputations as huge party schools often attract students with those interests. Yes there are exceptions, a neighbor of ours at Lehigh, which has a significant drinking reputation, does not drink but a colleague of mine attended parent weekend at Colgate and claims, (can this be true?), that there were parent-student drinking games offered at the events there.</p>

<p>The degree of drinking and drug use at any school can't be ignored as an important element to consider when making school choices. Many schools with these reputations are trying hard to change things but some of these cultures have been ingrained for generations. I am not sure if this actually occurred but I heard that at Penn they were trying to move some of the frat houses so they no longrer occupied the most prominent real estate in the center of campus. (Locust Walk) Little changes like that can make a difference.</p>

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<p>PHEW! This has been an exciting read....</p>

<p>Mama - Our family was concerned about many of the same issues as you and we, too, had a child who was extremely well-rounded, friendly, active, confident enough not to have to do risky things to fit in, and not one to need booze or drugs to tolerate life and/or loosen up socially. </p>

<p>We came up with a list of schools we felt were "well-rounded" in terms of political persuasion(s), "party" inclinations, on-campus activities (sports, theater, music, community service) and academic excellence. SBMom provided you with a list of some of the very schools our S applied to. I'd also add Goucher, Hood, St. Mary's College (Md.), Mary Washington, and probably Muhlenberg to that list as well.</p>

<p>P.S. We follow the European method in our family by allowing all our children to have wine with dinner beginning at the age of 14. We have even given them enough wine on one or two occasions (not force feed mind you..) so that they got a bit high, learned what it felt like, learned to drink water in between, and learned when they needed to stop. (My parents did the same thing to us and none of my siblings ever became big drinkers, never got ill, threw up, or passed out. The idea was that we'd rather they learn about these things at home than somewhere on a back country road or at a high school party lacking adult supervision) The deal was if they wanted a glass of wine occasionally in the house that was fine. But no outside drinking and if we caught them doing that, they lost the use of the car and basically didn't have a life... One of our children remarked once "Gee, we're glad you and Daddy are so liberal" (we aren't liberal at all) because all of the kids whose parents are really strict about drinking are the very ones who go crazy drinking on weekends..."</p>

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<p>I don't argue that different colleges -- especially LACs -- have different cultures and collective personalities. My point here is that "drinking" culture is often exaggerated or taken out of context.</p>

<p>All I know about the OPs daughter is what she's told us. She appears to be a top student in a rigorous curriculum, interested in biology/sciences with a potential business ink. She is a competitive swimmer and wants to continue to pursue her sport in college. She wants to stay in the Northeast and seeks an enviroment in which a non-drinker will be comfortable. The OP describes her daughter as "basically happy, hardworking, academics are important to her." And seeks schools "Where alcohol [isn't] the center of student social life."</p>

<p>Because so much of the OP's daughter's profile matches Williams I would hate to see her cross Williams off her list -- before visiting, that is -- because of what she's heard second and third hand about problem drinking. It's the scare tactics that I take exception to.</p>

<p>(Again, Williams is the school I know about personally. Other schools could fall in the same category.)</p>