Nontraditional student, looking for love...

<p>I met my husband when I hired him for a job. I had graduated law school very young and so was already an attorney when he (who's actually a month older) came interviewing for a law clerk position. We worked together, then hung out after work with a bunch of other people, usually playing Hearts. Eventually, we went out. And, no, I didn't get sued for sexual harassment. Twenty years and two kids later, here we are. To find someone you have to be open, available, and flexible (it's a lot like the college admission process).</p>

<p>Seconding the above comments that you may wind up with someone who is a bit off the mental picture you have. </p>

<p>My H was older, southern (!-- and all that that implies, social-views wise), an artist, had a rocky relationship with his mother, was divorced, had a kid.... </p>

<p>I mean look how many "danger signs' I had!</p>

<p>However, he was also:</p>

<p>incredible full time dad to his daughter, amazing cook, beautiful housekeeper, extremely funny, very romantic, loyal, hard-working, and devoted. Furthermore, having been married to the wrong woman, he genuinely appreciated me-- even with all my quirks.</p>

<p>Our marriage has not been perfect (very stressful at outset with instant stepmotherhood) but it has been very stable and happy. Sometimes his "cracker" side gets on my nerves. Sometimes his neatness gets on my nerves... But the list of good qualities is also unchanged from nearly 20 years ago. He's still a great dad, cooks dinner every day, and regularly he will make me really laugh. </p>

<p>Do marry fundamentally nice and decent men who can make you laugh. If they are fundamentally decent, there are lines that they will not cross so you will not have to worry. And laughter will dissolve many petty squabbles.</p>

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<p>Returningstudent -- I have some not very politically correct thoughts for you. They involve some stereotypes and generalizations, but after 25 years of marriage and sharing stories with many female relatives and friends, I have a particular perspective on marriage and male/female relationships, which you are free to ignore!!!</p>

<ol>
<li><p>Listen to Bassdad -- I am one of 4 daughters, all of whom went to college in the 70's and were quite feminist in our views. But I'm now convinced that just because women have a non-traditional outlook on mate selection doesn't mean that the men have gone along with this. I now think that my mother was right in many ways. Men seem to like to be the pursuers, and are often looking for a very feminine woman. I've know very successful women, some of whom have had great difficulty in finding a partner, and it often seems that they treat dating like a business plan. If you read any male oriented books, like "He's just not that into you" you'll see that many men don't want to compete with a wife. One friend, married to a partner in a big-time law firm, said her husband once commented that he couldn't stand to be married to a "barracuda" which is how he viewed some of his female colleagues. It's not fair, feminist or anything else we might hope, but it's what I see.</p></li>
<li><p>Follow SBMom's advice. One close female relative (early 40's) is very successful (MSEE) and was briefly married in her mid-twenties. She took some time to get over this marriage, and decided to look around again in her early-mid thirties. She's done the internet dating, blind dates from friends etc. and just really hasn't found a life partner. And I can tell you that I'm not surprised. She's wonderful in many ways, but she's just high-maintenance to an incredible degree. Any guy has to meet a laundry list of expectations -- kind of like buying a new car! She is just very demanding, aggressive and treats personal relationships like business meetings. Once again, not what most men want.</p></li>
<li><p>Finally, here's my advice. Date as many men as you can, multiple times if possible, while pursuing other friendships in your life. It's a good idea to fulfill your ambitions, but you should understand that it may have an impact on your personal relationships. When you are dating someone, give him a chance. Don't be too demanding and judgemental, and maybe you'll find someone who will surprise you. </p></li>
</ol>

<p>Finally, I can't say it better than SBmom,

[quote]
Do marry fundamentally nice and decent men who can make you laugh. If they are fundamentally decent, there are lines that they will not cross so you will not have to worry. And laughter will dissolve many petty squabbles.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>sjmom,</p>

<p>The femininity thing can be diverting in small doses, but I don't think it is the essence of the matter. You hit it squarely on the head when you said that some women treat dating like a business plan. Most guys do not want to be controlled and managed like some abstract resource in an economics problem that is being manipulated to maximize someone else's satisfaction. We get enough of that from other sources. </p>

<p>I'm not saying that a little planning is a bad thing when it comes to major life choices, but it is kind of like making sausages. The less I have to know about your process, the better my appetite is likely to be. (Apologies to my vegan friends, but I remain an unrepentant carnivore.)</p>

<p>Bassdad, "feminine" was probably the wrong choice. I really mean nurturing and cooperative, not extremely aggressive or competitive. I associate the "win or die" mentality with more masculine traits, although I still believe that some of these characteristics lead to success for both men and women in the workplace. I DO have 2 sisters who are engineers, so I'm familiar with what makes for success in these traditionally male fields. (Not bashing female engineers, here, so please don't overreact!!!) </p>

<p>As one who pursued a career in high tech for some years before having children, I just think there are attributes which are important to family and marriage which are incompatible with business and vice versa. When I stayed home with kids, I had to deliberately slow down, become a better listener and provide a nurturing home environment. Coincidentally, my marriage benefited. I just see some women (I don't know about how men view the desire for marriage and family) who want the whole enchilada -- career, successful husband, well-behaved children on THEIR time table and on their own terms. Relationships have to be mutually beneficial, and it can't always be about meeting someone's schedule or laundry list of requirements.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Most guys do not want to be controlled and managed like some abstract resource in an economics problem that is being manipulated to maximize someone else's satisfaction.

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</p>

<p>Um... women don't either! I've definitely dated men who want to manage me and treat our relationship like a factory. Let's drop the idea that it's only ambitious women who do this.</p>

<p>
[quote]
you'll see that many men don't want to compete with a wife. One friend, married to a partner in a big-time law firm, said her husband once commented that he couldn't stand to be married to a "barracuda" which is how he viewed some of his female colleagues. It's not fair, feminist or anything else we might hope, but it's what I see.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>True - but do you want a man who thinks like that? I'm happier being by myself than being undermined by someone who is too insecure to support me.</p>

<p>Aries-- I don't think it is necessarily anti-woman; I wouldn't want to be married to a male barracuda, either.</p>

<p>Aries -- it's not always just a matter of a man being insecure. I was lucky to find one who pretty much supported whatever I wanted, including staying home with kids. Mostly, I think he just doesn't want to be on my bad side! It's more the case that relationships should be supportive and nurturing, not competitive. Real partners are complementary, and may take turns being strong or needy. But it's tiring for anyone to come home at the end of the day and play a little game of one-upmanship. And maybe you would be better off by yourself than with a man who you feel keeps you from being who you want to be. I just think that life is better when it's shared, and that always seems to require compromise and give-and-take.</p>

<p>
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Mostly, I think he just doesn't want to be on my bad side!

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<p>LOL, mine too.</p>

<p>Maybe we're talking about different things... because I'm not talking about not being there for someone emotionally. I want to support someone in a relationship - where we help each other be better people.</p>

<p>I am completely fed up with men who tell me that I should scale back my ambitions (i.e. don't be a lawyer); who tell me that women are inherently worse at math than men; who say that I don't need to get the good grades that I get (hum... these men usually being history majors with worse grades); or that I should not push myself so hard. </p>

<p>Try stepping into my shoes for a half of a second before you judge me as being a ball-buster, which is what I'm hearing. I NEVER try to one-up friends, boyfriends, casual acquaintances, the people at the ice cream store - I just don't think that my ambitions or achievements have anything to do with human emotion, the soul, and good relationships. </p>

<p>There is certainly more than enough room in my life to be able to work hard during the day, but then be all emotional and supportive when I'm with people. I just won't have any more of this b.s., where men get all intimidated about how I spend my time away from them.</p>

<p>Just saying. The other alternative for me is to throw my education, talents, and ambitions out the window to stroke some guy's ego.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Just saying. The other alternative for me is to throw my education, talents, and ambitions out the window to stroke some guy's ego.

[/quote]

Aries, there doesn't have to be such a dichotomy. It's not like you have to be an air-head Susie Homemaker or "Career Woman Extraordinaire". It sounds like you're not meeting the right guys -- but, believe me, there are some good ones out there. The OP asked how to go about meeting potential long-term relationship guys. And I think the advice from SBmom is as good as it gets. My comments, which I think have been misconstrued, are intended to point out the difficulty in establishing a close relationship when the two parties are only looking to meet their own needs. My H would never have married me if he didn't find me intellectually interesting, and I'm certainly not passive or subservient. But I don't challenge him on every little point -- I accede to his areas of expertise, as he does to mine. But some women (and I'm certainly not suggesting that you are one of these) treat men either as the enemy or as a status symbol. The basic rule of life is to treat others the way you want to be treated. I find that successful people are able to respect the other party's wishes while maintaining their own identity. There has to be a separation between working life and personal life -- it can't always be about winning the game.</p>

<p>Aries: Someone should write a movie about you.:) I don't know what men you are finding, but myself and most of my buddies (maybe its a midwest thing) would have no problems supporting their girlfriend/wife's ambitions, or have a problem making less than the spouse.</p>

<p>Ariesathena,</p>

<p>I did not say that women enjoy being manipulated or that women are more likely to be manipulative than men. I am quite aware that it is an equal opportunity vice and I had both sexes in mind when I said we get enough of it already. I am sorry if anyone has treated you as if either of those statements were true, but I am not going to take the rap for them.</p>

<p>I was trying to point out that manipulative behavior is neither the ideal nor the most efficient way to start a relationship, no matter what gender or genders are involved. As a heterosexual male, I expressed that sentiment from my own point of view. </p>

<p>It seems to me that far too much effort is spent thinking about what can be gotten out of a relationship and not nearly enough about what needs to be put into one. Lest I be misconstrued again, I will admit to being guilty of this myself and make no claims whatsoever about anyone else. My advice to anyone who has made a list of what they are looking for in a mate is this: make a longer one of your own positive qualities from your potential mate's point of view. If this turns out to be difficult, ask not for whom the bell tolls.</p>

<p>Thanks, everyone for your comments. I appreciate your advice and I'm also glad that this has sparked some interesting discussion.</p>

<p>To answer some points that stuck out for me:</p>

<ol>
<li><p>I <em>have</em> made a list of desirable qualities I currently have, and ways in which I can improve. It's very important for me to improve myself, to be a better communicator, a better supporter, more thoughtful, etc. There are also more concrete things I want to improve, like learning to cook, learning more about sports and music, etc. I do agree that a person is not simply a list of traits. But I'm glad I made the list because it helped me to better understand myself. The point about economic optimization is a good one. Heh. It's one of the reasons I'm not so happy about being an economics major anymore. I don't think it's as useful a way to approach life as I used to. :)</p></li>
<li><p>Thanks also for your suggestions of places to meet people and ways to approach relationships. You've given me a lot to think about. :)</p></li>
<li><p>Aries, I have never encountered the kind of prejudice against high-achieving, smart women that you have. I'm really shocked. Among my friends, the prejudice is the opposite, and if you aren't an engineer, doctor, lawyer, entrepreneur, scientist, artist, or mother, it's odd. You're accepted, of course, but people kind of wonder what happened. (I think this happens to me too, but since I'm a former business owner, returning to school to become a lawyer, I'm in a limbo category, I imagine.) My friends definitely respect and appreciate smart, ambitious women---that's part of why they are my friends. This may be controversial, but part of the reason I am going back to school (among many) is to have reached a level that the kind of men I prefer can respect.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Perhaps I am naive, but I don't see an inverse relationship between being smart and ambitious on one hand and being kind and supportive on another. I know many people who are both, and I strive for both myself. I wonder at your experiences, and I'd love to hear more. I remember feeling like that in high school, that I had to choose between being smart and being liked, and hated it.</p>

<p>To all...</p>

<p>Perhaps I've been misconstrued (perhaps). </p>

<p>Has it occurred to you that there might be people in the world who need to contemplate what they want in a relationship - not to "get something out of it" in a selfish way, but so they can stop getting into bad relationships with heartless people? I never get much out of relationships (except for a lot of heartache), but my exes all say that they've gotten a lot out of it. The balance can (and does) tip the other way... and it's often women who think of others first and themselves second. </p>

<p>I don't think there has to be the superwoman/Susie homemaker dichotomy - please read my posts and understand that I'm complaining about people (specifically men) who think that there is that dichotomy. I really think that I can get up in the morning, kick butt all day long, then be a warm, caring person in a relationship. There's no shortage of men in the world who feel emasculated by the "kick butt" part. </p>

<p>Not sure why anyone would think that having a little ambition makes someone more prone to pick on little faults - in fact, in my experience, the chicky-poos who don't want a powerful career are the ones who harp on their boyfriends; they just don't have anything better to do with their time. </p>

<p>I never said that either sex is more manipulative - just saying that men can certainly treat a relationship like a machine - input a, b, c, wait three weeks, and x, y, and z should come out. </p>

<p>Regardless... anyone who is trying to find a long-term relationship needs to be able to figure out which people are a waste of time. Never going to settle down when you waste your time with jerks.</p>

<p>JoeV: I date jerks. My friends think I should work for the FBI in tracking down psychos - "He bought me a drink! He's the one we're looking for!"</p>

<p>returningstudent -- re balance between being smart/ambitious and kind/supportive -- it's all a matter of priorities.</p>

<p>If you are single, you set your priorities for yourself.</p>

<p>If you are married, it gets a bit more complicated. He wants to move to Topeka for his job, you want to stay in Manhattan for yours. You need to work this weekend, he wants to spend some quality time with you. The roof needs to get fixed, the bathroom cleaned, the shopping done -- what takes priority?</p>

<p>If you have children, it's even more complicated. Your boss wants your work to be your top priority, the nanny needs to be relieved at 6pm and your husband is away on a business trip -- it's now a real challenge to find a balance between being supportive and fulfilling your ambition.</p>

<p>I think many of us who have responded to your post have worked on finding this balance, and it influences how we see your current search for a mate.</p>

<p>Of course there are plenty of books on this topic. One that is good is "The B-i-T-c-H in the House."</p>

<p>
[QUOTE]
I have never encountered the kind of prejudice against high-achieving, smart women that you have. I'm really shocked. Among my friends, the prejudice is the opposite, and if you aren't an engineer, doctor, lawyer, entrepreneur, scientist, artist, or mother, it's odd. You're accepted, of course, but people kind of wonder what happened. (I think this happens to me too, but since I'm a former business owner, returning to school to become a lawyer, I'm in a limbo category, I imagine.) My friends definitely respect and appreciate smart, ambitious women---that's part of why they are my friends. This may be controversial, but part of the reason I am going back to school (among many) is to have reached a level that the kind of men I prefer can respect.

[/QUOTE]
</p>

<p>I have, it seems to be the norm. I kind of accept as a woman who will soon have a PhD, I will never marry and have children. It's just the way it is. Female scientist = world class freak. Never met a guy my age (25) who didn't agree with that. Maybe if I was interested in someone aged 60+ and would be happy to give up my career/life then it would be different. But that wouldn't make me happy.</p>

<p>Cupcake, I don't agree with your assessment. I DO know many women who are M.D.s, lawyers, academics and business women. And I'm sure that what I'm going to say doesn't apply to you, but my experience is that the women who are able to succeed in finding a mate and raise children have a different attitude than those who don't, regardless of personal achievement. They compromise and put the needs of other's first. I think that Bassdad has made some good points, and his posts are worth re-reading. Women who look for someone who meets their laundry list of requirements and have an approach which puts their needs first, will find it difficult to find a man who considers this to be an attractive trait. It's along the lines of, "ask not what he can do for you, but what you can do for him." When you find a man who is worth caring for, you compromise. It's not all about you, so to speak. But love does require sacrifices, on both sides. I have moved for my husband's career, and he has given up outside interests to provide for his family. And, as Fendrock says, children change the equation even more. For those people, men and women alike, who are unable or unwilling to put someone else first, I'd recommend against marriage and children. It just doesn't work.</p>

<p>"ask not what he can do for you, but what you can do for him."</p>

<p>I would have said to ask both things, or at least be sure that he is considering what he can do for you. As fendrock and sjmom point out, it's all about balance and it takes a lot of work to maintain.</p>

<p>Cupcake, don't give up those dreams yet. I am a female who got a Ph.D. at age 26. No, I'm not married yet, but I'm now well on my way. I used to feel exactly like you did. I felt like guys were intimidated by me. However, around age 25 or 26 that started to change. I started to meet men (my own age or within 5 years) who weren't intimidated as much as they were impressed. These men were successful and well educated themselves. My current long term boyfriend is the owner of a very successful business and I am completely infatuated with his intelligence and business sense and always have been. In return, he is quick to work the fact that I have a Ph.D. into conversations with others because it's almost like a point of pride for him...look at this smart girl on my arm who has published articles and presented in front of large groups of people. That's one of the things he likes about me...that I'm ambitious, intelligent, and achieve my goals. These guys are out there. Sure there are tons that are intimidated by that, but who wants them anyway!</p>