<p>Coveting Kellogg </p>
<p>Undergrads want to take it down a degree </p>
<p>by Robert Stein </p>
<p>May 05, 2005 </p>
<p>"The Kellogg School of Management -- located at the center of the Evanston campus -- isn't on the academic map for undergraduates. </p>
<p>The powerhouse has outranked every other business school in the country in BusinessWeek's rankings five times since the survey began in 1988. But undergraduates in the economics or Business Institutions programs can only watch Kellogg's success from a distance and wonder why a business degree is off-limits to them....</p>
<p>The industry debate about the effectiveness of an undergraduate business education was heightened by the University of Michigan's recent move to expand their undergraduate business degree. Despite the interest in business at Northwestern, University President Henry Bienen said an undergraduate business degree is unlikely here. Besides, NU already tried having an undergraduate business major -- for 61 years. ..."</p>
<p><a href="http://www.dailynorthwestern.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/05/05/4279d15d01413%5B/url%5D">http://www.dailynorthwestern.com/vnews/display.v/ART/2005/05/05/4279d15d01413</a></p>
<p>I find that very interesting, esp. on the heels of Ross opening up to freshmen applicants next year. It completely opposes their philosophy though, of getting a liberal arts education first.</p>
<p>Perhaps it is related to the way the economy is going, with so much manufacturing getting outsourced, that there is more of a need for management and consulting.</p>
<p>Are they doing this to attract more B-students? And will it just dilute the program....bec. it's not that simple to extend it to undergrads.</p>
<p>i'm FOR "no undergrad business at NU", a lesson for NUers who wanted business: why didnt you guys apply for wharton/ross/stern/sloan/mcIntire/marshall instead??????????</p>
<p>Perhaps, they like just about everything about NU except that? First of all, some of them are probably Wharton's rejects. Then on the next level down, we have Stern. While Stern is a great school for biz major, NYC's campus is "campusless". Going to Stern would remind me of taking those adult extension classes in a big city! Not everyone likes that kind of environment. Marshall/USC is just not at the level students of NU's caliber look for.</p>
<p>Aren't there plenty of community colleges that offer vocational business training? </p>
<p>Nobody is forcing these kids to go to Northwestern for a liberal arts curriculum.</p>
<p>You're comparing an undergrad business degree to a community college business degree? I hope there is sarcasm dripping from you're computer.</p>
<p>interestddad--that was a jacka$$ comment.</p>
<p>No it wasn't. How on earth can a kid go to a college and then complain that they don't offer a particular degree?</p>
<p>There are 4000 colleges out there. Each has a different philosophy of eduction and different programs. If kids would stop choosing schools from the ranking list and start thinking about what they want, they wouldn't end up at a college that doesn't offer an undergrad vocational business degree when that's what they want.</p>
<p>If you notice, very few top colleges and universities offer undergrad vocational degrees. The NU spokesman explained the reasoning quite clearly and its easy to see why an undergrad vocational business degree would run counter to the school's entire philosophy. A huge part of the reason that the schools at the top of the rankings are there is precisely because they do not offer undergrad vocational training. That's the core of what separates elite colleges from the pack.</p>
<p>But, if a student isn't interested in that kind of education, choose a different college. That's the great thing about having 4000 of 'em.</p>
<p>Mit, Penn, NYU, Berkeley, Michigan, UNC, Uva, Wisconsin, Texas--etc--what a bunch of TTT.</p>
<p>Many schools start-expand programs precisely because of student demand. Why do you think there are 50 econ profs and only 5 in art history??</p>
<p>Precisely my point. If a student wants a undergrad vocational degree (such as business), there are hundreds of large public universities that offer just such programs. Why choose Northwestern and then complain because the school is philosphically committed to providing a liberal arts curriculum?</p>
<p>Because students are also the customer and entitiled to make whatever demands they wish. Many college rules have been shaped by student demands, students have demanded better rec centers and they are built, better food and a new service is hired, better pay for the staff (see Yale), and many other demands including what subjects are taught. According to you students should just accept whatever the status quo is and study. Well, that's not the way it works.</p>
<p>"Gina Fechheimer, a first-year Kellogg student who earned her undergraduate degree at Wharton, said she doesn't think her business education put her ahead of any students studying economics at other top-tier schools.</p>
<p>She said work experience plays a more important role in graduate school admissions and a small difference in undergraduate degrees isn't the tipping point for MBA acceptance.</p>
<p>"Graduate school is about applying experiences," said the 27-year-old Fechheimer. "They become more important." </p>
<p>Mike McNerney is a first-year Kellogg student who graduated from NU in 1999 with a history degree and BIP minor.</p>
<p>He said some undergraduate business majors do well in Kellogg classes because they already have experience in finance and accounting -- just as students who took AP statistics are more prepared for the college course. But he said having a broad liberal arts education gave him more advantages in the real world.</p>
<p>"(Studying liberal arts) gave me more flexibility," said McNerney, 29.</p>
<p>BIP would better prepare students for business if it gave students the chance to pick up more quantitative skills by offering more accounting and finance classes, McNerney said . </p>
<p>Students considering business school should study what they are passionate about before graduate school, But McNerney said students should be sure they can prove to an admissions committee that they can handle the quantitative aspect of business, either by taking economics or statistic classes, or by performing well on the GMAT. "</p>
<p>"Prof. Mark Witte, BIP director, said a broad liberal arts-based curriculum is the best way to prepare for business.</p>
<p>"We would not be serving (students) well by teaching them business," Witte said. "At (the) undergrad level we are better off teaching broad business skills, such as finance and accounting, things we think are essential for the world. We are trying to make people better thinkers. That was our strategic decision." </p>
<p>Creating an undergraduate business program would pose many technical difficulties. Witte said Kellogg doesn't have the capacity to take on undergraduates -- it would require additional hiring of business professors, one of the highest-paid fields in higher education. The expensive undertaking, Witte said, would divert money from current programs and hurt both undergraduates and graduates. </p>
<p>Allowing undergraduates to take Kellogg classes would also dilute the Kellogg name in the job market, Witte said. "</p>
<p>At the price NU charges for tuition business is a very profitable major for the school. The library is the only major expense in resources and it is completed. They would need about 35 profs for 500 students 35 profs at $150k will cost $5.25 million. Add a little staff and you have $6 Million. 500 students would pay $15 Million in tuition. There's room to work in those numbers. Uva and UM already have an essentially for profit business school.</p>
<p>Also a number of major firms have indicated MBA's are out and they will focus on hiring BA's. See Goldman and others. I'd bet they would love NU business undergrads just as they do MIT, UM, UVa and others.</p>
<p>How are MBAs out? Don't they prefer work experience?</p>
<p>Nope, they can provide that and teach their ways at the same time. MBA's got too expensive and too lazy.</p>
<p>I agree with barrons' comment about the students. I also think the students aren't really "complaining" in the sense that they know very well they won't be the ones seeing the change even if NU starts working on it right now. They just think this is a good idea for the school; they probably think NU can succeed the same way UPenn has.<br>
interestedadd, in terms of ranking, UPenn has risen to #4 (I don't really believe it should be above MIT/Stanford) and believe it or not, Wharton probably plays a big role on that. UPenn would suddenly look a lot less sexy if there were no undergrad biz program there.</p>
<p>Sam Lee, do you think an undergrad business program at Northwestern would increase its national ranking?</p>
<p>The school will seriously become a preprofessional factory. haha</p>
<p>Northwestern already have six undergraduate schools. Imagine if Northwestern adds a 7th undergraduate school.</p>
<p>you are what you are.</p>
<p>That's interesting. I believe it will because it's gonna be the toughest school to get in within NU and that's gonna increase SAT stats..etc. It will also attract significantly more applicants. Some people may get turned off by the increased preprofessional focus but I doubt there would be that many of them as long as the departments in arts and sciences retains its quality and excellence. It just shows how stupid the rankings can be--as if an addition of one school can somehow make others better.</p>
<p>But now that you point out the fact that, if NU implements it, it's gonna be in a separate prefessional school. So I don't understand the whole fuss about liberal arts studies because it's not gonna change how the people in the school of arts and sciences pursue their liberal arts degrees. It's not going to change the culture of NU dramatically either because NU already has five preprofessional schools and they are all very strong. Adding a sixth isn't gonna make much of a difference. It's already a school known for preprofessional programs. The do say they believe it's better to get your degree in econ rather than one in biz for biz field but that seems rather abstract to me. After all, people coming out of Stern and Wharton seem to be doing pretty well in getting jobs.</p>