Not A Stellar Freshman Year OR Are My Expectations Too Much?

Parents Forum
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<p>It’s not your expectations that should matter in this case, IMO. It’s what his particular situation is. I have two kids for whom I fell to my knees and thanked the heavens for each term they got through. If a student is on a scholarship that is tied to GPA by term, that 3.16 is cutting it close. If the student is looking at going to a top 14 law school, med school, is average is not going to cut it. Some planning in picking a schedule next year to bring up GPA would be a good idea. Nagging and pushing is usually not a good thing. But some families, do it and it works It’s a parenting issue. Not pointing out the issues and looking for solutions to potential problems is sticking your head in the sand. </p>

<p>My one son was denied a seat in a program because his college GPA was not high enough. Another was denied some jobs because his GPA was not high enough. Some of these top hiring firms do look at the gpa and have cut offs or pick 'em from the top. My son’s SO was not accepted to a number of state master’s porgram because her GPA was not high enough. So, yes, size of the GPA counts. How to approach the matter with your son is a whole other issue, and you should take your relationship with him, and his particular situation into account when doing this. These are the years that the psychological and emotional demons start popping out, and, sometimes you do have to keep that in mind. For some kids, the 3.16 is going to be as good as it gets.</p>

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<p>I appreciate all of the feedback. CC is a wonderful resource. I would like to respond to some of the comments. Thank you to all for your time and input.</p>

<p>Philosophy Major & Law School: My son’s freshman advisor is the chair of the Philosophy department. He was also the prof. for my son’s freshman seminar which was philosophy based. My son really likes his advisor and enjoyed the freshman seminar - so much that he wants to be a philosophy major. The reason he was able to take the upper level phil. class was that this same prof was the instructor, my son had already done well in one of his classes and my son’s CR & Writing SAT score allowed his Freshman English requirement to be waived so this prof. felt confident that my son could hold his own in the class. It was a challenge. He worked very hard for the grade he earned.</p>

<p>Law school is something he does have his heart set on - today. He has worked in a volunteer organization with many attorneys, has developed friendships and has come to admire this group of people and their work. For his summer job he is working at a company that provides legal & trial support services so he will be around the court house, depositions etc… doing, obviously, a lot of grunt work but he is so excited to be around this world. He is well aware that he needs to greatly improve the GPA as a top law school is the only route that makes sense. As for my perspective on law school - I have never pushed the idea other than if it is something you want to do go for it. I have pushed the idea of a great GPA because if you decide not to go to law school…you still have the great GPA!</p>

<p>Foreign Language: This has been the bane of my existence (and his) for many years. He is incredibly happy to be done with this requirement. He feels that he had to put in an extraordinary amount of time just to eek out a B- and that it was a drain on his time and his GPA. He feels that next semester, in place of a language, his time will be better spent on a class that is more suited to his talents.</p>

<p>Merit Scholarship: The GPA requirement for freshman is a bit lower than for the remaining years. </p>

<p>Overall: I never was angry with him about any of this - I just asked him if he felt he had done his best. Yesterday he said he was not sure but he was disappointed. This morning he said he thought about ways he can improve his performance. He was very bothered by one particular grade so he emailed the professor and then had a very encouraging 30 minute conversation with the professor this morning where they went over general ways to improve his performance in the coming years. I thought that was very kind & generous of the professor. I thought it was mature and pro-active on my son’s part.</p>

<p>Yesterday I was having a late night /early morning mini private melt down. The comments here gave me some better perspective - thank you so much!</p>

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<p><a href=“FWIW,%20I%20know%20a%20young%20adult%20with%20a%20relatively%20mediocre%20college%20GPA%20and%20stellar%20LSAT%20scores%20who%20just%20got%20accepted%20to%20an%20Ivy%20law%20school,%20after%20a%20couple%20of%20years%20out%20of%20college%20working%20for%20a%20nonprofit%20legal%20agency%20which%20might%20be%20something%20of%20an%20admissions%20boost.%20GPA%20isn’t%20everything.%20The%20LSAT%20scores%20came%20after%20intensive%20test%20prep.”>quote</a>

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<p>The LSAT is one of the harder standardized tests out there and most people IME find it much harder to pull of a good LSAT score(Greater than 165 and ideally above 172+) needed for a top law school. Moreover, some top law schools like Boalt Law(Berkeley) have the reputation of privileging high GPAs over LSAT scores while others are more flexible in allowing GPA to slide a bit if the LSATs are high enough to compensate or vice-versa to a point. </p>

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<p>GPA and top LSAT scores. If one or both are too low to gain admission to a top law school, forget it. </p>

<p>However, a 3.5 or sometimes even a 3.16 doesn’t necessarily rule one out if they can compensate with superhigh LSAT scores and extraordinary related ECs. Granted, the odds are long…but I do know of a few who managed admission into top 14 or even top 10 with GPAs as low as 2.8…but they had extraordinary LSAT & related ECs which most would be hardpressed to match. </p>

<p>In short, while one can get into a top law school with an average/subpar GPA…don’t count on it as the odds are exceedingly low. You’d have a better odds finding a purple unicorn.</p>

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<p>Sometimes I think the high school GPA of 4.0 + , set us up for visual disappointment of the 3.0 +. In high school you can have a 4.5 GPA. In college you can have a 3.5 and that’s very, very good - yet in some ways, as a parent, you look at it and say, “what happened?”</p>

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<p>I would honestly not concern myself with the situation unless there is something he doesn’t know that you feel you need to tell him (for example, if you would be unable to keep him at the school if he loses the scholarship, he should be told that). I have not kept track of the gpa of any of my college kids. If I had a kid that I was concerned about (whether because of executive function or partying), I would, but so far, my kids-- like your son-- seem to be trying to earn good gpas which, in college, is harder than they think, especially when they begin, so I see no reason in adding to their stress. If, a few years down the road, he looks back and hasn’t earned the gpa he needs to be competitive to law school, then I guess he will either apply with a low gpa and see what happens or find another plan. He’s trying. College is hard. There’s no reason to let him think that his parents are disappointed in him or to add to his stress.</p>

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<p>FIrst of all, if someone truly wants to go into law, not just going to law school with some idea of being a lawyer, but truly wants to practice and know what it entails, going to a top 14 law school is not necessary. Getting certain clerkships,shots at white shoe law firms, and other venues are what the top 14 can increase your chances for, but I know plenty, yes, plenty of law school graduates from not top 14, not top 50 or even 100 doing very, very well. Two were at the top of their classes at their respective law schools and are in position to get a partnership offer from their top law firms. They got clerkships and great offers despite not graduating from a top 14 firm and the beat out those who did. It just makes the odds lower, but not impossibly so. I also know kids who have no jobs coming from those big name law schools. So the rule is not hard and fast. If someone really has a good reason and clear path on what they want to do as an attorney, going to law school is what they should do. If they are just doing this without the hunger in the belly and true desire, that’s a whole other story. My generation had a lot of us going to law school just to get a job as an attorney and those jobs were more plentiful and more likely to get back in those days, but even then there were a lot of unemployed lawyers. My brother is a very successful lawyer who barely got into what he calls a bottom of the barrel last ditch effort law school. It was what he wanted to do, and he just needed the degree as a tool. it’s not like he was getting the tool and had to learn what to do with it. That is where the difference lies in who will be able to get a job in law.</p>

<p>My son was recently hired by a big company,great job with a very good salary package, and, yes, they wanted his high school and college gpas, and SAT scores. All of that counts in soe venues. It made his job search very quick and easy cuz he had the stuff they wanted on paper, anyways, and he was not eliminated on the spot that way.</p>

<p>But to push that sort of thing on someone already doing his best… I don’t think that is good parenting move. So you want to bring it on the table, but not be pushy about it. I can tell you it’s not the end of the world if your kids barely get through college or don’t get through even. A lot worse things in life, as you probably well know. But some strategies might be discussed in getting that gpa up. My one son did not listen to me and it cost him a seat in a program. He took too many courses, too difficult of a batch and that hurt him. Had he taken fewer, easier courses, he would have had a better chance and then he could have taken the courses with impunity. Sometimes managing your course load can make a very big difference as well as picking certain courses and avoiding others. i would love to kick the backside of the idiot advisor of one of my kids who encouraged him to take a pre med bio class as a science elective. Some of those professors and advisors are not very smart that way and don’t care or are unaware of iss ues that may be of concern like grades.</p>

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<p>FenwayMama,</p>

<p>Read your second post to yourself. Your son has his head on straight and is very mature. He’ll land on his feet. Give guidance, but trust him. He is doing fine.</p>

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<p>Unless they graduated after 2008, the entry-level lawyer market they had isn’t nearly as abysmal as it has been since 2008. </p>

<p>The differences in employment prospects before and after 2008 are stark. The legal industry hemorrhaged jobs and many law firms…including several biglaw firms closed their doors. </p>

<p>IME, many folks who graduated law school in the early-mid '00s and before or only knew folks in that category tend to have excessively optimistic views about employment prospects of law school graduates…especially those in the bottom third/half of top law schools outside of the top 3 or those outside the top 14/first tier except the tippytop graduates. </p>

<p>Even so, the tippy-top lower-tiered law school grad has long odds. I know a few that have been unemployed/underemployed for years…doing things like Barista-type work, dead-end legal temp jobs for $10-20/hr, etc. </p>

<p>Problem is too many law school grads along with competition from highly experienced established attorneys who have lost their jobs due to the post-2008 meltdown.</p>

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<p>I went to a top 5 law school and graduated into a recession. There weren’t that many lucurative big firm jobs, and they generally went to the students at my law school that were in the top 10% of the class. My law school didn’t rank, so the markers to an employer were whether the person made Law Review or Order of the Coif… and I didn’t do either. So no big firm job for me at graduation. </p>

<p>I didn’t care at the time and it didn’t matter. I lived in an apartment that cost around $200 a month and my annual tuition less than $750. I was debt free and free to choose whatever path I wanted. In those days I could have easily lived on minimum wage if I had to. Over the years I worked sometimes as a part-time associate for a small boutique law firm and sometimes as a sole practitioner, or as a partner in a 2-partner firm. It certainly was easier on my psyche than some big firm demanding 100-hour work weeks. Somewhere along the way I decided I wanted to be a mom, and a 4-day work week, working 6 or 7 hour days, sure was a lot easier on my home life. </p>

<p>My alma mater, a public school, now charges upward of $50,000 a year to in-state residents. Living cost these days (food, housing) are going to run $20K at a minimum. I quit practicing law years ago because I could make pretty much the same amount of money with less stress in other pursuits.</p>

<p>That kid I mentioned who just got admitted to an Ivy? Plans to go into public service law. (It’s likely that the 2-years post-college legal experience plus stated intent were something of a hook for admissions). The Ivy has a generous LRAP program (that’s where the law school helps grads with public service jobs pay off their loans with partial or full reimbursement of loan payments, depending on the school). I mentioned that to my son, and he said something about indentured servitude. </p>

<p>You can’t cram a square peg into a round hole. A B+ student in undergrad who manages to get into a highly competitive top tier law school may very well end up as a C student there. Anyone who passes the bar can practice law, including the people who attend the night-law school you never heard of… and the C student from the top law school isn’t going to get those lucrative, ass-busting law firm jobs. Plus the pricey law firms are increasingly cutting costs by relying more on the work of independent contractors or hiring lawyers for lower-track, non-partner track positions. (The law firm equivalent of being an adjunct or lecturer at a college rather than a full time professor).</p>

<p>To the OP: Your kid knows what the requirements are for law school. You don’t have to tell him- he’s trying, he knows what his GPA is, he knows that he wants it to be better. Time will tell whether or not it gets better. He’ll live his life. He’ll have a career, and it may be the one he dreams of now or it may be the one he ends up with following a different path.</p>

<p>The best thing you can do as a parent is tell him that you are proud of him, that you have faith in him, and that he can always count on having you in his corner. Focus on what he accomplishes, not the areas where he falls short – it sounds like he’s lined up a great summer job. Be his cheerleader… Keep in mind all the things he is doing right: he did not lose his scholarship, he is not suffering from mental problems or drinking or doing drugs or coming home to spend all summer lying around on your livingroom couch. (And I know plenty of kids who have done some or all of the above and still turned out ok… but of course those are the kids who might need a kick in the pants from Mama… you’ve got one who is doing everything right, but just is finding the going a little tougher than anticipated).</p>

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<p>I would like for universities to assign a “strength of curriculum” score to go along with the GPA–somewhat like Olympic diving, where a great performance on a dive of so-so difficulty doesn’t necessarily outscore a really good performance on a very difficult dive.</p>

<p>I think there is a difference between being able to get grades of A/A- rather than a B in the courses that the student has been taking vs. being able to select sufficiently easy courses to ensure grades of A/A-. If the former is the case, then the student should probably invest a bit more effort in academics. If the student can only get grades of A/A- by dropping down in course difficulty, the student might actually learn more by staying with the more difficult curriculum. At present, this has the drawback that it does affect the GPA and some future plans are GPA-dependent. If there were a “strength of curriculum” rating to supplement the GPA, this problem could be eliminated.</p>

<p>I realize that in practice it would be very difficult to get people to agree on the strength of curriculum rating. However, when I serve on scholarship committees in my own college (sciences), I go through the transcripts and assign a strength of curriculum rating as part of the review process. The sets of courses tend to be similar enough that this is possible and makes sense–and it really helps to identify the people who should receive academic scholarships.</p>

<p>In my opinion, the impression of rampant grade inflation at “top” schools (which is held by some on CC) is exaggerated. If the school has a GPA cut-off for keeping a merit scholarship such that a 3.16 clears the bar, there is probably a reason for that, in terms of the grading practices.</p>

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<p>Re mathmom’s post #19 and the difficulty of foreign languages courses: To put this in a bit of perspective, if one uses a book read in introductory German as a benchmark of sorts for the level of the course, I can say that mathmom’s course went approximately twice as fast as mine did.</p>

<p>In a lot of cases, the placement exams for language courses are advisory, rather than mandatory, so that people with considerable experience in a language can still take the course for beginners. I understand that there are some students who have listening/speaking backgrounds, but not reading/writing, and can’t move directly to upper-level courses. Still, they have it much easier at the beginning than students who have to learn the entire language “from scratch.” I wouldn’t attach much significance to grades in early-year language courses. </p>

<p>Students who start with the more advanced courses come from a wide variety of backgrounds, and will have differential preparation as well–you probably don’t get a level playing field until well into the language curriculum.</p>

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<p>Fenway - BP is right - sounds like you have a great kid who has a game plan in place to get where he wants to go. You can help him refine his plan and support it without crossing certain lines - as you should.</p>

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<p>OP-- I stopped reading after your second post. </p>

<p>Your son is fine. He got through the adjustments of the first year without flunking anything and has a respectable GPA. He is thoughtful and sensible. He has realistic expectations and goals. He is proactive in approaching professors, and motivated.</p>

<p>I think he will do just fine in the next three years. Your role is to support him and serve as a sounding board. (Unfortunately, advising is not always as strong as it could be, even at great schools.)</p>

<p>Congratulations! :)</p>

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<p>kid is in good shape</p>

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<p>To mom: Yes to a point.</p>

<p>To son: Now’s not necessarily a good time to tell him that as it may serve as a demotivating pat on the back. Lion’s share of responsibility to kicking himself into gear is his and he’ll need all the motivation he can get.</p>

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<p>

This is not necessary true. If a kid has been doing his best, there is no need to kick him in the butt. From what OP has posted, the son is quite motivated. My younger kid is very hard on herself, so I try to give her assurance rather than giving her more motivation to do better.</p>

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<p>Depending upon grade inflating or deflating. If a GPA of 3.16 were bottom 25% or the scholarship cut off limit is 3.0, I would have a serious talk with my son.</p>

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<p>I wasn’t thinking of a "kick in the butt. More like the OP not voicing that he’s doing fine and keeping that reassuring feeling close to her chest. </p>

<p>Telling him he’s doing ok isn’t necessary and may be unwise at this time…especially considering if the downward grade trend continues…he will lose that scholarship.</p>

<p>Granted, I am coming from the place that few merit dependent scholarships I’ve seen would allow students to keep them with a 3.16 cumulative GPA even if one was a first-year student.</p>