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<p>I have zero knowledge of this topic – but in general, is it obligatory (IYO) for state schools to offer merit aid to bright in-staters? Compared to their mission of providing education for all the taxpayers in that state, that is.</p>
<p>post 572:</p>
<p>I am not that familiar with the NC state schools but have been looking at their websites trying to understand LadyDianeski’s distress. Overall, NC schools seem to be considered an excellent bargain. And there seems to be generous need based aid. There does not seem to be any merit aid that is based purely on a test/gpa like some states have. It seems to me the Robertson is essentially buying students away from HYP and that they use those scholarships to up their rankings. (Am I wrong in this interpretation?) Unlike some states, it doesn’t seem to me NC is committed to merit awards for their top academic students. Enough of them seem to want to go there, and find it a good deal financially that it isn’t necessary. And a whole lot of out of state students want to go to NC schools.</p>
<p>OTOH it seems there are a number of great state schools where a student can get merit awards based purely on stats… and private schools, too.</p>
<p>It is pretty amazing to me that it is possible for a very few very fortunate students in this country get free, or almost free, college educations with merit awards which do not take into account “need”. </p>
<p>Again, congratulations to your family.</p>
<p>Hunt,</p>
<p>funny analogy.</p>
<p>Not everyone gets the same education in a home schooling environment or a private school or a public school, for that matter. All things aren’t equal. There are so many variables.</p>
<p>Don’t know many homeschoolers anymore as it is not prevalent in this area, but I used to live in an area that had large numbers of homeschooling families. I agree that the education can vary widely; I think even more so than in any school as it can vary by family and child… There is group teaching and learning in any school setting where there is some consistency in what a group of kids are taught in a given time period. Not so with home schooling. </p>
<p>I’ve known kids who have gotten into the top schools from homeschooling setting, small Christian academies, abysmal public schools, large, mediocre public schools as well as the usual places that are more associated with that accomplishment. My friend who homeschooled and homeschools her kids, has one who graduated from a big, flagship state school, one who is in a fairly large state school and both did and are doing well. The one daughter went on to a highly selective prep school for high school and graduated at the top of her class there and is now in a top LAC. i don’t have any problem with those who homeschool if they know what they are doing. That qualification is for a whole other discussion.</p>
<p>Our state schools are not big on merit money either. Binghamton and Geneseo simply don’t give any. They don’t feel they have to do so. I remember reading a post from an IL parent who was not happy that a non flagship state school did not give much or any merit money and was priced pretty high. I guess it comes down to the individual school, and if they feel they have to offer some sweetners to keep the enrollment where they want it and get the kids they want. I’m surprised UNC-Ch offers merit money. Their in state cost gives great competition to the pricey OOS and private schools as it is. Financial aid and OOS differential waivers is all I would expect from them.</p>
<p>LadyDianeski, what is or was your expectation regarding what your state schools “should” do for a bright student such as your son, WRT merit aid?</p>
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<p>Well sure, but I guess I’m just thinking of the typical homeschooling family I know. Either they have very bright kids and no affordable private school options, and the kids were dropping out of their classes due to boredom, or they are fundamentalist Christians afraid that their children will be taught how to put condoms on bananas in the second grade. Or something.</p>
<p>In neither case would any of these families, and I suppose I know about six in real life, consider teaching to the SAT. I’ve NEVER heard of that. Certainly there is a lot of variation in home-school curricula but I don’t know anyone that would do that.</p>
<p>And again, if you take AP tests, well… how do you get five or six or fifteen AP tests done, like one homeschooler I know, if you’ve been only “taught to the test”? You just don’t get to that level by skirting major knowledge. (Child in question is a military brat.)</p>
<p>Off Topic:
When I dreamed of home-schooling my kids (before I met my ultra-social kids, both of whom asked to go to school before the age of two, before I realized I was not meant to be a stay-at-home-parent, in other words before I knew what I was talking about), I bought the Well-Trained Mind. Love that book! I plan to use it to help my kids supplement their education when needed.</p>
<p>xiggi—am well aware of the Robertson and Morehead. You have to be directly related to God to get either one.</p>
<p>And yes, I know full rides at NC in-state schools are a reach; such scholarships are highly competitive. But I’m not talking about a full ride like the Robertson. I’m talking about a token little $1K award, just a morsel, just enough to say, “Yes, we want you.” App State keeps telling DS how much they want him; they keep urging him to enroll…but apparently they cannot cough up one penny in merit aid to “show the LUV.” (They did promise $17K in loans, though. Oh joy!) Meanwhile, Bama says it with dollars. (And the state of Alabama has a budget crunch, too. Go figure. But don’t get me started on the big-spending wastefulness in Raleigh or you’ll never hear the end of it, LOL.)</p>
<p>Please don’t jump to conclusions, 'K? We know about all the options, and we’ve exhausted them. Whatever you may suggest, xiggi and friends, we’ve been there, done that. Now we are moving on. But I still reserve the right to be PO’d in the short term. After all, I’m supporting these stingy schools with my taxes – and mighty high taxes they are, too, among the highest in the South.</p>
<p>alh -I always thought of scholarships such as the Robertson, that run a holistic evaluation process, as attempts to recruit students who might later on be good candidates for further honors such as Rhodes, Marshall, Churchill, and Truman, Udall, Fulbright, etc. Also students who might go on to top grad schools or industry positions. All of these students should eventually contribute to the strength of the alumni network, and this is usually the justification given to the allocation of funds to recruitment of these students, and the added expenses of educating them (duplicating or even going beyond the resources allocated per capita to typical students at elite schools) should they decide to matriculate. </p>
<p>This goes well beyond upping the rankings in US News, and usually the number of students awarded such honors is too tiny to make an appreciable difference as far as average SAT’s are concerned The question to ask is whether offering merit based on stats alone, or offering honors college resources without significant merit money, or offering special programs such as Northwestern’s ISP within more elite schools, will work as effectively as offering merit money at recruiting these types of students. It seems that many schools depend upon a mixture of all three methods to snare these types of students.</p>
<p>The Common Application has a Homeschool Supplement. On it there is a question asking that the parent (or homeschool supervisor) describe their “home schooling philosophy.”</p>
<p>My answer was a slightly wordier version of “We made it up as we went along.” That’s part of the great adventure of homeschooling, after all. It doesn’t have to be consistent or standardized at all, but it can be if people want that. Never was our approach, though, and the kids have done very well academically. (I think it was getting to sleep in every day. 
Even there, though, I heard more than one person tell me they’d never be able to get up in the morning and go to work if we didn’t habituate them to it while young. Funny how they’ve been so easily able to get the hang of that as young adults without that early training.)</p>
<p>alh - I think you’ve nailed it. UNC-system schools are stingy because (historically) they’ve been able to get away with it. As our budget crisis worsens, however, it’s bound to affect our public universities adversely. In fact, I think that’s already starting to happen.</p>
<p>As you say, some other states take pains to retain talented kids in-state. (Florida springs to mind, with its Bright Futures program.)</p>
<p>Apparently NC doesn’t want a Bright Future. Only semi-kidding, really. The NC approach embodies a completely different education vision – a more old-fashioned one, IMHO. In the long run, I think it may hurt NC. Just my two cents’ worth.</p>
<p>Why the ire over no merit aid in your own state? You have a right to wish that some of your taxes came back to you in a way that’s personally meaningful- just like we all do- but it’s just that, a wish.</p>
<p>I wish that the kid up the street from me who gets a private van service to a public school because of his alleged disability would take the school bus like the other kids on the block. But when he’s not doing travel soccer he has asthma and can’t walk to the corner; hence the van, which we the taxpayers fund.</p>
<p>But if wishes were horses…</p>
<p>LadyDianeski, congrats on the 'Bama scholarship that your son got. I think it’s a great choice and will have a lot more options that App State or UNC Asheville, though both as smaller schools have their advantages. I’m curious what amount would have made him go to either school. </p>
<p>When my older son was finished with his decisions,some of the schools that he turned down did send questionnaires asking what would have changed his mind and had him decide to go to their schools instead. In his case, it wasn’t the money. Once he hit that particular affordable point, the cost became irrelevant. I think with this son, this year, the same holds. For the full priced schools, for them to have stayed in the running required about $20K. For the state schools, even a full ride would not have done it. Certainly offering $1-2K would not have made a whit of a difference in their decisions, and if they offered that to thousands of kids who take the money and were coming anyways, what did that money buy? Better the offere was more to fewer, if you see what I mean. Would a token thousand or so have changed your son’s mind as to where he would be going?</p>
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<p>I don’t think of “worldly” as something that necessarily requires involvement with gangs.</p>
<p>I will just give one example. I’ve known what marijuana smelled like oh, probably my whole life. Let’s just leave it at that. Because of my knowledge, I was able to avoid parties where it was being smoked. It’s a very different criminal charge than underage drinking, and I didn’t drink, but even if I were charged, it would not be the same issue.</p>
<p>I knew a girl who had to go in front of a judge and say that she truly didn’t know they were smoking marijuana. She didn’t get off, because he didn’t believe her, as she was friends with those kids. (She was not homeschooled, just clueless.)</p>
<p>Oftentimes sophistication can help you make better choices and avoid bad situations.</p>
<p>I have no problem with homeschooling but I do think avoiding reality is never a good safety strategy.</p>
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<p>Perhaps they already feel they offer a great opportunity insofar as your state flagship of UNC-Chapel Hill is one of the country’s best flagships? I’m betting that plenty of smart NC students already stay in state to attend Chapel Hill - so do they really need to focus on attracting those students to App State and UNC-Asheville? I don’t know - again, I know nothing of the situation in NC and am just asking the question for my own edification.</p>
<p>frazzledtothecore: Your description of the Robertson is much better than mine, and what I should have at least attempted to say. I do not think it has anything to do with raising UNC or Duke’s SAT scores. They do hope these will be the students that get those national awards. But there will be other non-scholarship students at these two schools that also become Rhodes Scholars, etc.</p>
<p>Will a student from a small Christian Academy have the same obstacle to overcome? </p>
<p>Not necessarily. Same answer for kids from the small Jesuit or Jewish or other religious academy. Or from the small alternative school. Some small schools have superb strengths. Anyone who is at a small school, with limited opportunities- and, possibly, some particular focus or perspective- should understand that colleges still want to see the pattern of success (academic, social and in the community) that they have deemed evidence of potential to fit and thrive at their college. </p>
<p>Adcoms usually know their territories quite well. They know some tiny school just can’t offer what a bigger one can. But, that doesn’t change their idea of what it takes to thrive in their college. </p>
<p>Why isn’t a “classical education” a predictor of college success? It can be, depending on a number of variables. But, remember, my perspective is that college is about more than academics. So, an applicant has to show evidence he can fit and thrive in the particular college’s atmosphere- the things in the classroom as well as beyond the classoom. </p>
<p>When I noted “sheltered,” I meant families that intentionally limit their kids’ interactions to only others who share their specific values, with little experience in even safe environments. That is not the full picture of homeschooling. By “worldly,” I did not mean into drugs, violence and having early babies. Since college is also a social experience, the kid who was limited to interactions with a uniform group can be (depending on personality) at a disadvantage. It makes sense that adcoms might want evidence he can manage there.</p>
<p>What I think is often left out of the equation is the difference in cost to educate a student, whether at a 4 year public such as UCLA, a 4 year public such as Cal Poly, San Luis Obispo and a community college. So much has been subsidized with taxes that it’s hard to fathom what the true cost per student.</p>
<p>Each college has their own costs that must be taken into consideration - staff, buildings, maintenance, electricity, and so on. </p>
<p>This brings me to the point that a student who is going to a school like UCLA is ALREADY getting their education subsidized by the wider base of California residents. You can use this example for all public schools. Unless your cost of attendance is paying every penny of the true cost - not just tuition, room and board and fees, than by default, you may already be getting a “scholarship” to attend. </p>
<p>It may not seem that way. </p>
<p>Some students are full pay, some are out of state full pay and the taxpayers are still contributing a large portion towards the education of a student.</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.lao.ca.gov/sections/higher_ed/FAQs/Higher_Education_Issue_05.pdf[/url]”>http://www.lao.ca.gov/sections/higher_ed/FAQs/Higher_Education_Issue_05.pdf</a></p>
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<p>Isn’t NC one of the states that is thinking of (or planning to) increase the number of OOS admits, to increase revenues?</p>
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<p>We’re in California, and merit aid is awarded similarly. Nothing big like the Morehead at the UCs. There are the Regents awards, which are nice and show some love towards a few handfuls of kids. At the Cal States, a few offer some merit aid, but for most it’s need-based aid only. That’s the way that the state works. I’ve never met anyone here, in all my decades in California, who’s ever complained about the lack of merit aid at UC or CSU, or felt that the school should be showing their kid some love. The thing that gets people het up is when tuition skyrockets, which is what it’s been doing on an increasingly (and depressingly) regular basis.</p>
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<p>You’ve exhausted the options wrt North Carolina public schools. That doesn’t mean that you know about all the options. I’ll bet if you started a new thread in the parents forum asking for suggestions for schools for your second son, you’d get a whole bunch of new options of places that would show some financial love.</p>
<p>SamuraiLandShark: post #597 Yes. </p>
<p>A page or so back I deleted something that I think I will put back into the discussion. I am not meaning this to be ugly or sarcastic. What do we think about public schools offering non-need based merit awards? Is that a problem? Does it serve the school’s mission? Is there a difference if those awards go to in-state or out-of-state students? Will our thoughts on this change as the states suffer more and more economic problems?</p>