Nurturing the young musician

College Majors Music Major
1

<p>The recent "After College" thread got me thinking a bit about where our family is at (young musician with apparent interest/ability to pursue performance, several years away still), so consider this a "Before College" thread.</p>

<p>I thought it might be interesting to get everyone's idea on how to nurture musically inclined kids. I guess, for point of discussion, we could say starting with middle schoolers.</p>

<p>I'll throw out some completely random questions as examples of what I'm getting at:
- How much does any pursuit of music has to purely come from inside the kid?
- How much do you have to do gentle parental pushing (e.g. "time to practice, Johnny")?
- Where's the balance point between the two points above?
- Do kids either have "it" or not? (the "it" being the something beyond raw talent)
- How do you balance time commitments to various ensembles with potential teen burnout?
- When do you push a little and when do you back off?
- To what extent do you make sure their dreams are in line with their talent?
- How do you make sure this is not YOUR dream?</p>

<p>These are teenagers after all. I tend to believe that the kids who can realize at a young age (say, 12-ish) that this is their life's pursuit are pretty rare (maybe not CC kids, though?). There's a lot more that have the ability, as well as some interest, but the parents are able to see the potential there more than the kids can. How do you draw this out? Or do you just sit back and see what happens?</p>

2

<p>It has been our experience that if you can answer the first two questions honestly, the rest of your questions will be answered.
We were not a musical family and frequently sought the “kindness of strangers” in order to both understand and evaluate what the heck was going on.She developed an interest in music at around eight years old (instrumental at first) and though her teachers expressed to her the importance of practice, we never did. In fact, I do not remember ever having to encourage D to practice. Homework was another story. Her work at school suffered since she spent an inordinate amount of time with her music. I have always been of a mind that a parents job is to hold the door open, but not push the student through that door.</p>

3

<p>As a parent who invested money into kids music lessons from an early age, I expected daily practice effort from my kids, just as I expected academic effort. I always gave them the opportunity to stop lessons if they balked at practicing and they always chose to keep practicing. </p>

<p>I think kids today have more distractions than ever with so much instantaneous gratification surrounding them. Without some parental guidance and pressure, they may never realize their talents. What I believe helps alot is searching out performance avenues which keeps it fun, gives them alot of much needed public performance time and makes them see the benefits to all the practicing. As long as the grades remained high, they were allowed to chose their venues and I found the more performing they did, the more organized they needed to be to maintain their grades and their school performance was much better than when they had alot of free time and could procrastinate.</p>

<p>But alas, every child is different from their drive and motivation, to their raw talent to their ever changing dreams. I think parents can figure out what works best for their kids as long as they stay in tune with how happy their kid’s lives are. No one can tell you one sure way that will be successful for all kids - its all trial and error. The one thing about music is that it greatly enriches their lives no matter what they do in the future, so music education to me is invaluable and that practicing is never time wasted.</p>

4

<p>Our child’s interest in music came completely from within himself. He started saying, when he was about 10 or 11 that he wanted to play electric bass. We bought him one at a yard sale for his 12th birthday. </p>

<p>Although we paid for and drove him to the lessons, we never bugged him about practicing. He did that himself. We decided that as long as he was practicing on his own without us bugging him, we would keep paying for the lessons. </p>

<p>When he started high school, he opted to take music theory in his freshman year, as well as jazz improvisation. He was also the one who decided that he wanted to play upright bass. Music became his main interest in high school. </p>

<p>Frankly, for a while, we were kind of waiting for him to lose interest in music, as he had in a bunch of other extra curricular activities, but he never did.</p>

5

<p>I had no idea my D was musically inclined until her elementary school chorus teacher sent a note home that she should audition for the local children’s chorus, that was known for it’s very difficult audition. We showed up and she got in and the rest is history. Looking back, she sang before she talked and her 1st grade teacher told me at one point that D made up little songs to help remember things. I never had to push her to practice, because she was born a pleaser and did it not only for herself, but also to avoid disappointing her voice teachers. Voice is a little different because you can’t sing the amount of time that you can practice instruments. You still spend the time memorizing rep and working on stage presence. As driven as she was during undergrad to practice and be her best, she has decided since graduating she doesn’t want to pursue the life of an opera singer. She’s still taking private lessons and has done recitals and will likely do some auditioning but she’s very happy making money, spending time with her boyfriend, traveling and not being worried about every sniff and sneeze. Her teachers all believed she had to talent to have as good a chance as any other soprano trying to make it professionally, but it turns out she didn’t want the life that comes with it. I stayed out of that decision entirely so it wasn’t my dream or hers.</p>

6

<p>D and I were discussing parental support the other day. We reflected on the fact that two of her most successful friends, ( now singing professionally in the most prestigious productions imaginable) had no parental support whatsoever—financial, practical OR emotional. In voice especially ,talent, sacrifice and personal conviction will always prevail.</p>

7

<p>I totally agree with ABlestMom. We also have invested much money and time into musical lessons for our kids and have always had the agreement once they finished elementary school that if they did not practice, there would be no more lessons. We have never had a kid quit. </p>

<p>My oldest is extremely gifted with piano. His teacher, her colleagues, and various judges have been encouraging him to pursue piano performance and insist he has a rare talent. Like Catera45 said of her daughter, he does not want to study that in college. He loves the idea of composition or computer music and may decide to major or minor in one of those. </p>

<p>Your child can be gifted and may chose not to follow that path. That does not mean the gift will be wasted. There are many ways to use gifts and talents without giving up other interests. </p>

<p>To answer a few of your questions:

  • I think that by the end of middle school, the inner drive should come from the student and not the parent.
  • I occasionally give gentle reminders to my kids about time management…not necessarily practice.
  • You need to decide the balance for your child.
  • Some kids do have “it”, but that doesn’t mean that the driven child can not achieve great things. My daughter who struggles with ear training and sight reading is achieving wonderful things at the county and state level with her flute. This is through hard work and HER desire to achieve.
  • We look at the schedule during the summer and make sure there is practice time and also opt out of events when we know a time will be particularly difficult (AP exams, midterms, etc.)
  • I have not had to prod too much, but I do encourage as often as possible.
  • I think they should dream as big as they want, but having critiques from professionals should keep their opinion of their talents on track with reality.<br>
  • This is a tough one, we all want our kids to be successful, and if they display talent, we can let those dreams grow BIG. I try to encourage my kids to do their best, but I NEVER throw out “dreams” that I have to them. I believe that their dreams need to come from within. </p>

<p>Good luck. I know where you are coming from.</p>

8

<p>All three of my daughters had talent for music, but their interest levels were different. With my older two, it was clear that the interest wasn’t there by high school.</p>

<p>My youngest begged to start playing an instrument at an early age, and when she was in 3rd grade we got her a saxophone. She was so eager she practiced over 3 hours a day and had gone through several books before I could find a teacher or an ensemble for her. She kept up the practice over the years. In middle and high school we would talk to her about scheduling her day better (such as not allowing music practice after midnight), but she always practiced on her own initiative. We sought out performance venues for her, which she thrived on, and music has always been fun for her. She is starting music conservatory this fall.</p>

9

<p>Hi! My son is now pursuing a dual degree in cello performance and math in college and just finished his Sophomore year. He lives and breathes music and by the time he was 12 he knew he wanted to pursue music as a career and by the time he was in high school it was essentially his only extracurricular activity. Having said that, he has needed some prodding over the years to manage his practicing. He started cello lessons at age 5 and though he always loved to play, he didn’t always love to practice. We also just made it part of the package, practice came with the package of getting to take lessons and participate in groups. Though he sometimes dragged his heels to start practicing, he always understood the value of it and appreciated the connection between practicing and progress. My son has always been a “live in the moment” type of kid, so he is not a great planner. So our prodding tending to come in the form of talking about how much practice he thought he should be doing to meet his and his teachers’ goals and helping him plan how he would make that happen.
We also never pushed him into anything such as competitions, youth orchestras etc., but would let him know of opportunities and support him so that he could participate if he chose to do so. When he was about 11 years old we thought he would enjoy playing in the local youth orchestra program that we had heard about that is associated with the professional orchestra in our area. He was lukewarm about it so we just decided to take him to a performance and see what it was about. Through the performance he was in rapt attention the whole time, practically leaning over the balcony and when the performance ended he stood up, turned to us and said “sign me up!” He played in that program all through middle school and high school and it was the highlight of his week to go to the rehearsals.
Our son never seemed to get burned out on playing in different groups, but sometimes we needed to be the “crystal ball” that would point out potential conflicts or maybe that certain things done at the same time might get overwhelming just so he could either choose or at least tackle everything with a clear view of the time commitment that might be required.
For us it was a gradual process of letting him take over and be responsible for his own practice, he seemed to need some guidance along the way and wasn’t completely internally driven until late in high school. I think for him it was a maturity issue that what he knew in his head had not been completely internalized and integrated and it just took some growing up. It seems to be all there now and he never wavered from his desire to pursue music, that all came from him. Our daughter is also talented in music, but doesn’t want to pursue it professionally and we have not pushed her in that direction.
Good luck to you!</p>

10

<p>Yes, the ultimate drive needs to be internal. At the same time, especially for middle school and early high school, I think an important part of nurturing a young musician is making the time for them to participate in activities with their musical peers, whether it be the local youth orchestra/band/choir or chamber groups or weekend music intensives or summer camp programs. For my kids, it was important to have a group of musical friends who understood about the challenge of carving out practice time and got as excited about someone like Joshua Bell coming to town as they did.</p>

11

<p>For those who will make it their career, I also agree that the internal prodding is the biggest factor but for many, parents will have helped in ways that even they may not realize that they played a role. </p>

<p>In many respects, my son is a ‘late-comer’ to music in that he only began formal training in middle school. Yet, as we look back, he was always making music with whatever he could find. Yet, there were certainly things we did to foster that growth. As a toddler, we attended community classes in music play for toddlers and their moms and Mommy & Me classes where there was a big bucket of instruments and a time to march around the room with whatever chosen noisemaker fancied him that day. There were all kinds of noisemakers in our home, even craft instruments made of paper plates and beans, rubber bands strung on various items, glass jars filled with water that he would strike with various items to produce varying sounds. I simply let him create whatever he fancied. When it came time to enroll in junior high in the 7th grade, we made sure to select one with a good music program because he had indicated that he needed to make music a major part of his life. It was in this JH/HS program that he began his training and grew musically, and then ultimately was discovered and mentored as a composer. I often say that he cannot NOT compose. Music bubbles up from within him and when he’s on a roll he will work for a dozen hours.</p>

<p>His sister was provided all of these same things and also developed as a musician. Yet for her, music is something in which she is involved, not a passion she will likely pursue beyond HS. For her, she cannot NOT write and cannot not read. Two kids, same family and experiences, different passions. It’s that internal prodding that makes the difference, I am convinced.</p>

<p>Our son is starting college in the fall and though he had several good options, one of the influences in his choice was the number of practice rooms filled with music students working on their craft. My husband and I were on the campus yesterday for our parent orientation and took the 20 minute walk from the main part of the campus to where the music buildings, practice rooms, and performance halls are located. Though not a single soul was seen for the final 7 or 8 minutes of our walk, we arrived to the music department to see a half dozen or so students diligently working away in the practice rooms - which are open 24 hours a day, 365 days a year. It was a beautiful day, perfect for the beach that is only a couple of miles away yet here were students diligently working, not because they had to, but because something internally drove them to do so.</p>

12

<p>Good replies, everyone. Thanks. It’s very interesting to hear different approaches, philosophies, etc. We’re interested to see where this road leads!</p>

13

<p>Both my kids were exposed to the same activities growing up (dance lessons from age 4, piano from age 7, acting and modeling later on). First kid loved singing and piano through JH and HS. She went into college as a musical theater major but realized that she likes the dance part more than the singing part - so she’s changing career paths into physical theater. The other kid was a passionate dancer early on and then stumbled into singing in JH and realized that he liked the singing part more than the dancing part. So he dropped the dancing and is going to be a VP major. They all find their own paths. For my kids, once they found a passion, we never had to prod. Internal motivation and great teachers did the job. Oh, and a couple of great summer programs.</p>

14

<p>I recently saw an old found video of mcson when he was 3-years old at my sister’s house: he had big headphones on and was playing a keyboard while everyone around him was visiting. He popped off one earphone and turned to the camera and said: “Shhhh, I’m writing a song!” It was hilarious…but also telling ;)</p>

<p>In retrospect, I did not initially do a very good job of supporting my young musician. I’d had a bad childhood experience with a wicked piano teacher who killed it for me, and had a brutal schedule as ultimately a single mom that made lessons both difficult to reliably attend and at times, out of reach economically in the early years. </p>

<p>A musician I knew who was visiting one day when my son was five heard him fooling around in his nearby bedroom. He went and sat with him a spell, then came back out to the living room and told me my son had perfect pitch and that if I didn’t get him into piano lessons immediately I was an idiot. However, I thought said musician was trumping things up a bit, and I didn’t have a piano, and I worked a late shift and was never available for after school transportation, etc. etc. etc. So I just ignored the advice.</p>

<p>This initial “nurture neglect” on the music front, however, did not stop mcson. He was pretty determined to make noise one way or the other :wink: I think it was around grade 5 or 6 he and a friend made a recording of a song they made up using a ceiling fan and stick for percussion! By that time, at least he had a casio…and a 3/4 guitar. </p>

<p>By the following year, he caught the band director’s notice with a beat up old coronet. Things progressed pretty quickly after that, with some firm guidance from a very patient and exceptional band director. I was dragged kicking and screaming to confront the fact that this kid was determined to make and play music. </p>

<p>Eventually, I got onboard, and quickly – with a good semi-pro trumpet and numerous other instruments, interfaces, computing power, software (for composition and sequencing) a PA, band camp, private recording instruction, etc. </p>

<p>Once he had focused in on the types of programs he was looking for (about grade 10) then I was able to support him through his building a portfolio and taking courses to address skill deficits born by a comparative late start on the keyboard/theory/notation side of things.</p>

<p>So in our case, no question that mcson drove the process, and that I was a little slow on the uptake. But oddly enough, he feels he received outstanding support from me, because I supposed once it dawned on me that he was dead nuts serious, I stepped up to the plate and helped him make a lot of things happen.</p>

<p>But he has also said that my encouraging his creativity in an open ended way without any “pressure” in his early youth helped him preserve his love of “making” things – in other words, that he found my neglect somehow useful :wink: Could be stockholm syndrome, IDK, but I’ll take his generous assessment!</p>

15

<p>I totally understand what kmcmom means when she said her son drove the process. I always knew my son, actually sons, were musical, but I didn’t see it for what it was. I knew my youngest had a good “ear” and loved to play around on the piano and he sang a lot, in tune, but I didn’t think, well he needs music lessons. I should have gotten a clue when one day, he was about 6, I found him in the kitchen making pizzas out of crackers and ketchup to bribe the nice lady up the street so he could use her piano! When he was about 15 it became clear and he started voice lessons, never had to ask for practice ever. Now he is starting to work professionally.</p>

16

<p>Like anything with music, it depends on the student in terms of approaches, there aren’t any hard and fast rules, which of course makes it a royal pain in the tookus to be a music parent at times:). </p>

<p>Middle school is sort of a pivot in terms of what kids do with music, it is the time (especially on strings and piano) where it seems decisions need to be made, given the nature of what has happened in music in the past 30 years, the level of competition, the level of playing, all have gone through the roof. Here are some of my thoughts, in no particular order:</p>

<p>-One of the biggest things I think is to encourage listening to music, whether it is on I tunes, online, radio, whatever, and especially going to live performances. Seeing it played live is different then a recording, and it also is a way to share with the student. As my son’s knowledge of music grew, it allowed him to share his enthusiasm with us, to be able to talk about what was going on, what he thought of the performer, etc.</p>

<p>-Teacher in all this is critical, and not all teachers are the same. Especially once the student gets serious, it is important to try and find the right teacher, whether it is because the student has outgrown their old teacher, or because the new teacher knows more about the level of playing out there, knows people in the programs who will be taking in music students, and has their ear to the ground. It isn’t easy to tell with this, it is a combination of asking others, doing research, and in some cases, luck. One of my S’s prior teachers was a pretty high level musician, in a pretty high level orchestra, yet it turned out when my S moved to a different teacher how much they didn’t teach, let get through, with basic technique and such, and also, how little they knew what music was like today (his old teacher told him that it was okay to be casual about it through high school, then get serious in college, which on violin is deadly advice). I used to wonder why people drive kids 5, 6,7 hours or fly them into to top level prep programs, now I can understand it (though it may not take that, finding a great teacher is important).</p>

<p>-With practicing, it is a tightrope, forcing kids to practice can end up with the kid resenting it and doing little, being too hands off the kid could slouch. I think the big thing with practice is however much the student does it, that they have consistent time when they practice, that it is part of the schedule…some kids of course set their own time,practice when they want to, and it works, but my experience is that they have some dfinition to it, including how long they practice in a stretch (my S found 20-25 minute chunks worked for him, made the several hours a day work easier, plus helped him not overtire his arms and hands). I read a story about Donald Weilerstein, himself a high caliber violinist and teacher, with his daughter, Alyssa, who is now one of the top cello soloists aroudnd, and with her, using reverse psychology, where he told her “only practice 20 minutes, no more”…and being a typical kid, practiced a lot more, saying “you can’t tell me how much to practice” <em>lol</em> (whether true or not, it is funny…). </p>

<p>-Over time, it should be less and less parent. In the early phases, Suzuki violin emphasizes the parental involvement, sitting with them practicing, etc…but over time, it has to be more and more the student. I saw parents who sat in on the lessons of 17 and 18 year olds, recording the lesson, etc, and to me that is ridiculous…over time, I think our role moves from being a ‘pusher’ to being providers/support…by the time our S hit his late middle school years, we simply helped him make the decisions, he did it, and when he hit the high school years, it really was only about incidental stuff, like instruments, getting him places, etc…he decided where to audition, with his teacher the rep he played, we simply made sure to get him where he needed to go, make sure it all worked, gave him opinions during the post audition process, but let him make the decisions…it in some ways isn’t any different then how we parent as the kid grows up, as they get older, they make more and more decisions</p>

<p>-Get them involved with as much ensemble work as possible, as early as possible, kids usually enjoy this. School programs are ok, but if there are youth orchestras or chamber programs, go for it. Likewise, when they hit upper middle school, if they feel they are ready for it, a challenging prep program like SF conservatory, NEC, Juilliard, CIM and others have is not a bad thing. </p>

<p>One of the reasons for this is these programs will often have top level musicians in them, and the kid will be able to measure themselves, see where they lie, and make decisions based on that. Speaking from experience, when our S moved from a local youth orchestra to one that is tough to get into, he saw the difference, same with prep programs. The big fish in a small sea can get overwhelmed when they see what is out there, and it is good to know where you are with things, what you need to strive towards. </p>

<p>-Same with summer programs, while they are by no means mandatory, they can give a taste of what is out there, since many of them draw top level students. Interlochen, Kinhaven, Meadowmount, etc (I am naming these simply as examples, not saying go to any of these) have a wide variety of students, but you will see students at all levels and can help assess where you are.It doesn’t have to be a big name program, there are a lot of them, and it can really help. </p>

<p>-Even if you think your teacher is topnotch, it never hurts, especially in high school, to get an independant evaluation from another teacher, maybe someone who teaches at a high level program, to benchmark where you are, and get a critical eye on things.</p>

<p>-If your kid gets serious, you might face serious conflict with school programs, this is common. If they are practicing x hours a day, and going to school, taking courses, homework, time is going to be limited, and if they are good, you often will have school music directors ‘latching onto’ them and so forth, for pit band, stage bands, orchestras, etc…and if you have to give up things, personally I would recommend the school program be the lowest priority. Yeah, I am aware of the social aspects, I played in school programs for many years, had fun, but I also have seen the conflict, not just with my own kid, but other people as well. I understand where the music directors are coming from but they often forget that with music kids, there are conflicts, and that being in the school program can be detrimental. I know it sounds cold, but ultimately, our view has to be with the best interests of our kids. if the kid can do it, fine, but if there is something that needs to give, I would drop this…same with all state/region/etc, if the kid is doing other programs that are high level, those may not be beneficial (the key with all this, it depends…if All State is all that is available, then go for it)…</p>

<p>-Be prepared at times to deal with emotional storms, like “I don’t want to do this any more, it is too hard, ti is stupid”…with our S, we always told him he could stop at any time, all we asked is to finish out whatever cycle he was in, to the next recital, whatever. In part, to allow them to cool down, and see what happens. Our S had a hard time with vibrato, getting it right, and was frustrated, angry, etc…and at one point, was really down, it happens.</p>

<p>-There is also a fine line between being realistic and being negative, it isn’t easy. I think as parents we dance that line, I have seen a lot of parents who say “Music? There is no living in that” or “that is a hobby” or “a good EC to get you into a good college”, and while i understand the feeling, it is as misguided as “Of course you should go into music, you are so good, you’ll be fantastic, become a soloist, etc” (and yes, I have heard/seen that one…_). Maybe I am a bit of an oddball these days, but my take was we were realistic with him,plus he also met a lot of working musicians who knew the deal out there, and what we told him was if that is his passion go for it…but if something else seemed intriguing, he might want to put that into the mix, or even do that. We encouraged him to think about 'what if music doesn’t work out" but also showed him confidence we had in him that he was smart enough, that if music fell through, he could handle it, we weren’t neutral (for example, if he didn’t show the passion he did, I would have been discouraging him all over the place, if he didn’t internalize practicing and so forth), but we also wanted to support his dreams. I think part of this was influenced by the story of Leonard Bernstein, whose father refused to support his son’s musical ambitions, which left Bernstein to fend for himself, and years later, when someone asked why, the father said “Who knew he would turn into Leonard Bernstein?”…with the point being, very little is guaranteed in this world, and people who think an academic degree from the Ivy league guarantees much are as deluded as those who think getting into Juilliard will guarantee success in music by its name alone…:). I think we need to be realistic but encouraging, unless everything we see says the kid may be deluding themself…but then, instead of saying “you aren’t good enough”, you find ways to show the kid the reality, and let him come to his/her own enlightenment.</p>

<p>The above are nuts and bolts, it probably can be summed up by enthusiasm, encouragement and support bounded by reason…easy to say, hard to do:)</p>

17

<p>My son was definitely internally driven. He started cello in 4th grade much to our surprise. At the end of 4th grade he told us he “had” to have private lessons. In 6th grade he joined youth orchestra. He didn’t like it very much an quite after first semester. In 7th grade he wanted to play indoor soccer instead of go back to youth orchestra, so we let him. However, he continued private lessons. Practicing was never an issue. Even when he had friends over, he would tell him he was going to go practice and they were not to disturb him. </p>

<p>In 8th grade, he went back to youth orchestra and had a much better experience with a different director. He asked to go to Interlochen the summer after 9th grade. We said he had to earn part of the money, and he found a way to earn his share. When he wanted to increase his practice time, he asked me to help him find time in his schedule to do so. </p>

<p>We pretty much let him drive the process. He would tell us what we needed and we found ways to get him those things. I agree with other posters. It was important for him to have different performing opportunities. He played with youth orchestra, a great string quartet, and had solo opportunities. When he started earning money with his music, he was required to contribute his income to his summer programs. This was part of how we measured how motivated he was to go to camp for the summer. The summer programs helped him to find out how he compared to other students of his age. It also introduced him to teachers from different colleges who gave him an idea of what schools might be good places for auditions. </p>

<p>Music is a very difficult career. You child needs to be completely self motivated in order to pursue it. My youngest is as talented as his older brother, but never as motivated. His attention was always diverted by other interests and he rarely wanted to practice. I got tired of nagging him. He did not major in music in college but continued it as a hobby, a great choice for him.</p>