Pushing too hard -- burnout

College Majors Music Major
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<p>One of the dangers (for me) of this marvellous forum is the panic that sets in when I see how much everyone is doing to position themselves or their kids for the best schools. I woke up late to the serious preparation that is needed, and have been frantically playing catch-up. Maybe too frantically. I don't want to burn out my ninth grader. But dropping teachers or outside programs seems counterproductive to his competing with the best players. He is not at that place in his life where I have to pry his horn from his hands, like his teacher's top students. Quite the contrary. He is talented and accomplished (1st chair, several honors bands already), and he likes being that way. But he fights the practice and I'm afraid I could end up pushing him away from music if I load him up too much.</p>

<p>Are there any books or guides or suggestions about how a parent can best guide a young musician? I'm trying really hard not to be one of those dads from h-e-double-hockey-sticks. I want him enjoy just being a kid, too.</p>

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<p>I'd like to think that the majority of the posters here are not seeking to "position themselves or their kids for the best schools", but rather are trying to help kids who want to pursue music find a happy fit. If your son loves to play and is happy with his orchestra and teachers, it sounds like you are already doing a great job. Pre-college programs, youth orchestras and summer camps are often great ways for kids to enjoy being with like-minded fellow musicians, and that leads more generally into trying harder, and even practicing more even without parental pressure. I don't know of any books or guides, but I think reading through the various threads on this forum will give you lots of ideas.</p>

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<p>Pushing children is always an issue. 9th grade is a classic time when kids' focus tends to go towards social life and fun and away from work (even work on things they love). I took the approach with both of my children (one is a performing musician, the other not) that they need pushing in 9th, 10th and part of 11th grade. After that, if they don't do it for themselves, it's not important enough for them. Music is a kind of priesthood - after all, they are most unlikely to get rich from it. They have to really love it above and beyond other things they do. Most musical kids are good at a lot of things and have choices about what direction they will go in. There are a gazillion accomplished musicians practising law and medicine out there - some even went to college in music. I constantly remind my son that he can choose his life. Even after he begins music school, he can change his mind. </p>

<p>Keep him in the programs - a horn player needs orchestral experience because he is most unlikely to be a soloist. Also the ensemble is usually what they like best and taking him away from it would likely make him lose interest.</p>

<p>So, yes, make him practise, but don't overdo it - some kids have to practise more than others and it sounds like yours is one who perhaps needs less. Make sure he gets to go out almost every Friday night with his friends. </p>

<p>It would be disingenuous to say that we haven't tried to "position" our son for the top schools. Having said that, there is no guaranteed route - we came very close to missing the boat and had to change teachers in September of senior year from a very well-known one to one who is almost completely unknown. We discovered that there is a sea of difference between a good teacher of "basics" and a professional audition coach. Luckily it worked in part because he had already had so much performance and ensemble experience and also because he really wanted it and focused like a laser beam on the problems he was having. One suggestion is to put him in top-notch summer programs where he will have access to nationally recognized teachers and will also see the level of competition he'll be facing if he applies to music school. If there's a good conservatory style prep program in your area, this is a good way to keep him working on Saturdays, getting ensemble and performance experience and meeting lots of good teachers and musicians. If he likes what he sees, he'll be more motivated too.</p>

<p>Good luck!</p>

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<p>My guess is that this isn't going to be a popular post. In my opinion, the parent does not need to wake up and be frantic...or worry about burning out a ninth grader. If this student WANTS to be a musician, then the STUDENT should be the one taking the initiative, not the parents. AND the parents shouldn't fret over it. I'm speaking from experience. Child #1 lived, ate and breathed music. It was never a challenge to get him to practice. In fact, the challenge was getting him to stop so that the rest of us could go to bed. HE initiated participation in children's chorus, music camp, summer programs, change of teachers, youth orchestra, solo competitions, etc. We just drove him from place to place....and paid the bills. Occasionally we would see an opportunity and give the info to him...but not very often. He was very adept at finding these himself. He is a music major.</p>

<p>DD is truthfully as talented a musician. BUT she does not have the same passion. We COULD have pushed and prodded and tried to make her practice more, do more, etc. She had natural talent, but wasn't really interested in doing this more than she did. She practiced the minimum, and still managed to get good youth orchestra seatings. Believe me, we did make some feeble attempts to get her to practice more, and make more of a commitment to music. It just wasn't her style to do so. She is an engineering major who plays in her college orchestra.</p>

<p>We did not position our son to be a music major. HE positioned himself to be a music major.</p>

<p>Personally, I think you can "lead a horse to water but you can't make them drink" unless they want to. It sounds like the OP knows the opportunities available to his child, and is making those accessible. That is all you really can do. If the passion and desire to do this is there, the kid will do it. If not, well...they won't. And that's really OK. There are lots of opportunities for talented musicians to play that don't require that they be in a conservatory or major in music. </p>

<p>I guess what I'm saying is, the OP is right...he doesn't want to force this issue, and I would agree that he shouldn't. Part of being a successful musician is ENJOYING the craft. Take your child's lead on this one.</p>

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<p>I can't completely agree with Thumper. I think different kids approach this differently. My son now says that he's glad I pushed him through the 9th/10th grades when he was slumping. But he is an unaggressive person by nature and would never be the one to find teachers, programs, etc. on his own. He would have been ill-served if I had not helped him. That being said, he affirmed and reaffirmed his desire to pursue music all the way through. Even in 5th grade he wanted to be a musician. So I always felt that I was doing it for him and not myself - this is perhaps the critical distinction.</p>

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<p>Stringfollies...I don't think we are in total disagreement. I think we're looking at this from slightly different angles. Your son, like mine, had a commitment to his music. Your pushing wasn't "prodding"...it was a reminder that he didn't mind. </p>

<p>I guess what I meant was that I don't think you can position a child to be a music major unless the CHILD wants to be a music major. And it doesn't matter how talented the kid is. Truth be known, my daughter probably has more inate talent but my son has more drive to succeed (and talent too). If DD had practiced and worked in the same passionate fashion as her brother, she would be a first class musician at a top school (not my assessment...the assessment of her teachers). BUT no amount of pushing would have changed HER desires. </p>

<p>Even my less dedicated daughter knew that she had to practice her youth orchestra music, all state audition pieces, and solo works. She did those...minimally. </p>

<p>If the OP's son wants to be in Youth Orchestra or other honors ensembles, or competitions or whatever, it DOES take a level of commitment to excel in those. And it DOES take practice time. And if the kid wants to do these things, he'll practice. If he doesn't practice, he isn't doing anyone any favors by being in these groups...including himself and the other ensemble members.</p>

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<p>Wow. Great stuff, as I expected. </p>

<p>I agree with Thumper, but don't want to have doors close for my son because he may (temporarily?) be more interested in Myspace than in practicing. I am trying hard to remove my own feelings of disappointment should he decide, like Thumper's daughter, not to fully pursue what he is so obviously gifted in. He has to be his own person. But I've heard stories of students catching fire in their Junior year, so I want to keep the kindling hot. I take alot of heart from what Stringfollies says.</p>

<p>But I'm seeing my mistakes as I write this. He has a jazz period before school, then orchestra. They offer lots of outside concerts and trips. He has two teachers he loves. Now he is commuting after school once a week to a different city with an older classmate to a jazz ensemble class. Plus he has been in back to back to back honors bands with all their demands. I've overcompensated and have to scale back for his good. Until he pushes himself. Thanks for your comments.</p>

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<p>I absolutely believe that, for students who want to pursue music school, the drive has to be internal. There is no way that a student could prep for auditions and go through what is an incredibly difficult process without 100% commitment.</p>

<p>However, for a 9th grader, all of that seems very far away. Your son may or may not ever go to music school, no matter how talented he is. There are lots of ways to make music a part of ones life, without being a performance major. I really think it takes a unique personality to want to go this route.</p>

<p>That said, I will admit that I pushed (well...encouraged ;)) my son in one of his instruments (piano) at the age when he would likely have given it up (early adolescence). Fortunately, a college aged student heard him play, right around the same time, and told him that he wished he hadn't quit piano, and to try to push through the boredom stage that he was clearly in. We got a new teacher, and he persevered. I can tell you now that he is really glad he did. </p>

<p>However, I would never push a kid who was clearly disinterested in practicing or playing. Yours doesn't sound like that, but also may decide he has many other areas he would like to pursue. You will see how it unfolds.</p>

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<p>Good discussions above.</p>

<p>Just one other slant:</p>

<p>I've seen teachers take care of the practice/progress issue without parental invovlement: If you don't accomplish what the teacher demands, the student is dropped form the teacher's studio!</p>

<p>Different instruments/teachers seem to have different "cultures", but I know violin, cello and piano students that have been "dropped" from high level studios prior to college.</p>

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<p>Both of my son's teachers would "drop" students who didn't practise enough. Their studios were both in very high demand and they had no problem replacing kids who were unmotivated with others who were. (They never considered dropping my son)</p>

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<p>Well, I don't consider myself a pushy parent, but......</p>

<p>My kids HAD to do their homework. We weren't positioning them for Ivy's or law degrees or anything like that. It was expected that they do their homework. It was our way of communicating that we valued education.</p>

<p>Likewise, my kids HAD to practice. Music is highly valued in our family. The deal was that they couuld take lessons on anything they wanted, but once they started, they had to continue for at least 3 years, and there would never be any arguments about practicing. It was all settled in advance. After that first 3 years, they could continue as long as they wanted ... but as long they continued lessons, they continued practicing.</p>

<p>All three of them play 2 instruments each. (All play piano; S1 plays guitar - classical, acoustic, electric, and bass; S2 - horn; D - violin). I rarely had to remind them to practice their primary instrument, but I did bribe them to practice piano. (Kept a bowl of money on the piano. They paid themselves. That's how they got their allowance.) When they were younger - elementary school age - practice was scheduled into their day. There was no argument - any more than when I said "dinner time" or "time for bed." Just part of the day. My D is ADD. She would go to her room to practice, and I would suddenly realize that it had been quiet for awhile, and I'd find her on her bed with a book. I had to keep after her.</p>

<p>(My kids also didn't get "screen time" - TV, computer, Game Boy, etc - till practice was done. I was mean.)</p>

<p>We weren't positioning them to be performers - we were positioning them to love and value music. None had to major in music. When middle kid decided that was the direction he wanted to go, we (hubby, actually) tried to talk him out of it.</p>

<p>As to the OP, rather than force your kid in any way, perhaps you could just ask him what he wants out of life? Tell him you've noticed that he seems less interested in his horn, and you'd like to know how he's feeling about it. The reality is, kids feelings do change sometimes. I lived in fear the whole four years my middle kid was in college, waiting for the phone call that would say he changed his mind, and all our money would have been down the drain. Fortunately it never came. But I never want my kid to feel like he's gone so far there's no way out. (Of course, I would be devastated if he quit. But I would try not to show it.) Anyway, maybe if your son thinks about it a bit, he might realize that he does want to continue, and therefore had better work hard. If the desire to go forward comes from him, it will be so much more effective.</p>

<p>Also, be aware that horn players can't practice long periods at a time - especially if they are practicing certain things - like real high notes, or loud volume. And if he's played a lot at school that day, it might be enough.</p>

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<p>When my S began ninth grade, he decided to "assert" himself, declaring to his father and me that he did not want to continue his music studies. He wanted to play football. The football part was rather surprising, but I was aware that he had become frustrated with his lessons. He was also tired of the time commitment to the pre-conservatory program he was in. I didn't know what to do and honestly found myself grasping at straws. But I reluctantly made the deal with him that he could drop his lessons and play football, but he had to continue the conservatory program.
Thankfully, it worked out. He wasn't much of a football player and rather quickly came to that realization, though he did play two years. In that time, he discovered jazz, which rekindled his passion for music. </p>

<p>After a year looking into the disapproving face of his teacher every Saturday at conservatory, he came around. Interestingly enough, it was at that point that he started to seek out teachers on his own, and become more engaged in his learning process--letting me know about programs and teachers that he was interested in.</p>

<p>This is a dicey time for kids. I agree it's hard to know what to do without overdoing. But I guess my point is, give the kid some wiggle room, but don't throw in the towel. Encourage him in the direction that is best for him.</p>

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<p>Like Binx...we had a practice schedule for our kids when they began their instruments, but that was when they were young. We told our kids that if they stuck with the initial instrument for two years, we would buy them any instrument they wanted...a new one or a different one. And we made good on the promise with both kids. The OP, however, was talking about a ninth grader and positioning the student to be a musician. Please understand, my comments were in response to that. I do not believe that pushing a student to do something will do this. In my opinion, this drive needs to be instrinsic with the student.</p>

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<p>Binx, good thoughts all. I have an older son who was a bass player. He had his own band, and we supported him with good equipment ($$$), a good teacher, drove him to gigs etc. Then, as will happen, the band broke up. He put down his bass, and lost all interest in performing music. He still loves listening to music and plays acoustic guitar for fun but will enter his senior year without any music classes at all. From everything to absolutely nothing in 18 months. So I've experienced that changeability and disappointment first hand. Maybe that's why I started this thread, to avoid that happening with my youngest, who is admittedly far more accomplished and has more potential on his instrument.</p>

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<p>Chaz, it breaks my heart that my oldest doesn't play piano anymore. He was quite good. But he loves his guitar. I bet when your oldest goes off to college, he picks up the guitar again. It is a great friend maker. All my kid had to do was leave his dorm room door open and play his guitar - kids flocked! My son did take a music history course "for the fun of it" in college. And I think some day I will give him a nice electronic piano, and I'll bet he'll start playing again.</p>

<p>I'm not disagreeing with you Thumper. I think most kids get scheduled practice when they are little. My boys had piano, and D had violin, in ES. But the horn and guitar weren't started till MS (and D's piano) - we enforced the practice and HW before screen time all the way through HS. They didn't have to love it; they just had to do it. We have discovered that being good at something brings it's own rewards, and eventually we all like what we're good at.</p>

<p>I also agree that to be a music performance major requires passion. I'd even go further and say that you should do everything you can to talk your kid OUT of majoring in music - and only let them if they are totally opposed to considering anything else. It's not a major for the faint of heart.</p>

<p>Certainly, the caution should be extended to any parent's attempt to manipulate their 9th grader's future in a specific direction. In this case, though, I guess Chaz just wants to make sure her S doesn't throw in the towel too soon. I still think the best thing is to ask him what he wants out of it, and how she can help him get it. Maybe he WANTS to be reminded to practice. Or maybe he wants permission to give it up.</p>

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<p>This is a really interesting thread. When to push, when to support, and when to lay back... When graduating from elementary school, my son sang, did some very interesting work with the cello, and made stabs at the piano (with little formal training). His singing was superlative, his cello work was very creative, he could improvise at the piano, but formal training was lacking. At the same time, he was interested in theater and circus arts (particularly juggling). We sent him to a boarding school that has progressive education, and would (we hoped) give him some room to figure out which direction he wanted to head. For his freshman and junior year he dealt with the stresses of trying to balance theater and music. During the sophomore junior year spring break, he and I went to Paris, and that kindled his interest in classical music (well maybe turned it into a fire). He fell in love with the pipe organ, became very interested in wonderful composers that were in Paris (Poulenc, Satie, Faure), and basically decided that music was the way he wanted to go. During the summer, at the local kids summer theater, he learned how to play the theremin (best to look that up). </p>

<p>We have then had the secondary problem of trying to figure out how we can support voice and organ and the other things he is interested in, but at least we have solved the baseline question of "do I want to make a living as a musician." He would be thoroughly happy to be spending most of his waking hours doing music rather than dealing with English, and various other required coursework.</p>

<p>So, my advice is that this is a mix of providing opportunities, a bit of pushing and a bit of encouraging and helping them understand that it is OK that music is the place that they want to focus their lives. I am incredibly depressed about how the schools and kids struggle with parents who don't feel their kids can make a living in the the area that they most love --- music. We have to support them and help them believe that it will work out and that they can do what they do love.</p>

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<p>We never positioned or pushed our son, we introduced the instrument, and he ran with it. Wife and I have no formal music training or talents, but music was always available and enjoyed. </p>

<p>Son was always the smallest and youngest of his class peers, mentally/scholastically on a par or a bit head, but physically lacking small motor skills and coordination. Our public system suggested he try a string instrument as a means of improving small motor skills. From the day he picked it up he fell in love. He would practice religiously, and our concern was that he not overpractice, causing him potential long or short term physical damage. </p>

<p>He progressed very quickly, and was soon the best within his local peer/school group. With our limited backgrounds his lessons were confined to school, a six week/once a week lesson set during summers with his public school instructor, and a weekly lesson at a local retail music store offering lessons.</p>

<p>Throughout middle school, our excellent public system afforded him some opportunities to play in some Music in the Parks type events, and they won numerous group trophies, which had their effect. He also had other interests, among them boy scouts and some limited organized baseball. He did not want to participate in youth symphony, because of the conflict with boy scouts. We let him choose, and he chose scouts. In eight grade he changed direction. Something kicked in. It became all music, all the time. He wanted youth symphony, he wanted the seperate chamber ensemble activity. He wanted "a better teacher". </p>

<p>Again, within our limited experience, we gave him the best opportunities we were aware of within our local area and within our financial means. What drove and enabled him was his own ability, a fantastic and dedicated set of music ed pros from grade through high school, a high quality youth symphony with a group of amazingly talented peers. This commanlity of shared interest,
a very cooperative mutual respect and healthy but not cuthroat competition within his peer group was prime in his development. </p>

<p>To paraphrase Michael Corleone, we were stupid, he was lucky. We never even knew enough of what we were doing to even assume it was the "best" way or the "right" way.</p>

<p>Through the YS we developed a network of peer parents, and began to make better connections: a high level ensemble coach/mentor and at her suggestion, a change of teachers. His relationship with his mentor allowed for and put him in a position to regularly play with conservatory students, grads, and active and retired pros, which only drove him to push himself more, to hit that next level.</p>

<p>I've asked him honestly if our lack of knowledge had positioned him poorly for undergrad, and I must assume his "No" an honest one.</p>

<p>As a parent, the best advice I can give is recognize the Muse. Provide the support you can, and arm yourself with knowledge. Establish the financial parameters that you can provide. Beyond that, impose no limits, but do not define their goals.</p>

<p>The rest is up to your kid, and the Muse. </p>

<p>They determine the equation, and the outcome</p>

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<p>Cool thread. I agree with Binx in that discipline is taught (our household was very similar) and I agree with Thumper that your kid will really only become a musician (professional or just one who plays on that kind of level) if there is passion. Lots of kids in ninth grade don't practice, so I don't think that is indicative of anything...but in our household we taught the kids that they could not waste the teacher's time or our money. If they wanted lessons, they needed to be prepared for them. It's completely ingrained right now, like brushing their teeth. I would work with your kid...good practice is better than practicing for the sake of practicing. Even a couple of really difficult measures may be good practice for an evening in which he's just unmotivated. Four days a week of excellent practice is better than nothing. Thumper is right...if your kid wants to do this, he will lead you there. In the meantime, don't stress.</p>

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<p>We've had to push S (14, sophomore, piano) to practice but not precisely due to laziness. He oscillates between self-driven grandiose goals and... nothing. Very hard to sustain a relationship with a teacher that way! He'll set a goal (ex. learn the c minor Passacaglia & Fugue w/in one year of organ lessons), make astonishing progress, then quit cold. I've said that his biggest developmental challenge is to set workable (not the same as "realistic"!) goals for himself and stick with them. By "workable" I mean goals that are meaningful, rewarding, AND are compatible with the other things he cares about.</p>

<p>There are signs that he's settling down. He just won a local concerto competition. But now he's getting interested in voice...caught him gazing dreamily at Pavarotti videos on Youtube yesterday. :rolleyes:</p>

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<p>I agree with Allmusic that the drive to practice must be internal. My son prepared all through high school to be a music major, but he never was one permanently attached to his instrument. During senior year, we noticed he spent more time on his physics problems than his practicing. We encouraged him to practice more, but his response was that he had to do his homework first. To make a long story short, he is now a mechanical engineering major.</p>