<p>jpro, I'm happy that it worked out so well for your daughter. I'm simply offering our experience -- I still think that my son's AP and SAT II scores made a difference for him.</p>
<p>In certain ways, AP credits matter even more at state universities since more of their students are concerned to graduate earlier and save some tuition money; by contrast, the majority of students eligible for Advanced Standing at HYPS do not avail themselves of this option. </p>
<p>Here is another state university website where the AP/IB policy is included very prominently on the admissions site:</p>
<p>
[quote]
University of Nebraska-Lincoln
Advanced Placement (AP) Program</p>
<p>Updated May 2005</p>
<p>The University of Nebraska-Lincoln offers Advanced Placement Test credit for certain tests administered through the College Board. The current University policies regarding specific subject areas accepted and scores required are in the table below.</p>
<p>Students must have official copies of their scores submitted to the Office of Admissions by the College Board in order for credit to be awarded. To obtain copies of official grade reports, you can contact College Board directly at (888)CALL-4-AP.</p>
<p>While every effort is made to keep this list up to date, courses may be added or deleted at any time. For further information about the University of Nebraska-Lincoln Advanced Placement (AP) Program, please contact the Office of Admissions via e-mail at <a href="mailto:admissions@unl.edu">admissions@unl.edu</a>, or call our office at (800)742-8800, ext. 2023.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>I would be extremely surprised if students from Lexington High were admitted to highly selective colleges with no self-reported AP scores; since Lexington is known to be an academic powerhouse, it would raise flags in admissions committees.</p>
<p>Marite brings up excellent points - the AP tests do and ought to count for something other than for college admissions. Unfortunately, we all know of parents (or at least I do) who have fought with their child's guidance counselor simply to have their S or D in the AP section in order to get a "better shot" at highly selective colleges. Taking the AP exam in itself is often equated with academic rigor.</p>
<p>Fortunately, many educators, even those whose high schools placed high in the rankings, think differently. It is telling that the Newsweek rankings focus solely on the number of students taking the test. Nowhere do we find any mention of course structure, syllabus standards, or even the preparation of the teachers. Now, the CB does offer Institutes and workshops in all fields to help design courses and maintain a high standard of excellence. Rankings that reflect excellence, or what is the "best", ought at the very least take into account the level of course work taken. Then, perhaps, the actual score on the test can be measured accordingly. In some circumstances one student's "3" can indicate ability just as much as another student's "5". On this score, I agree completely with Xiggi, let high schools be high schools. Ultimately, it is the quality of the AP course offered and the scope and depth of material covered that gives students the advantage, an advantage that is measured by the AP exam. Then it is up the college educators to judge whether or not scores of 4 or 5 deserve college credit.</p>
<p>From Johns Hopkins (#1 BME program):</p>
<p>AP/IB Information</p>
<p>Advanced Placement (AP)
You may earn college credit in one or more subjects through the College Board Advanced Placement (AP) Program. Hopkins grants academic credit as listed below. Other AP examinations not listed may be accepted for placement purposes by petitioning department chairs.
AP Exam Score Credits Awarded
Biology 4 or 5 8
Calculus AB 4 or 5 4
Calculus BC 3 4
Calculus BC 4 or 5 8
Chemistry 4 or 5 6
Computer Science AB 4 or 5 3
French Language 4 or 5 6
German Language 4 or 5 6
Macro Economics* 5 3
Micro Economics* 5 3
Physics C (part I) 4 or 5 4
Physics C (part II) 4 or 5 4
Spanish Language 4 or 5 6
Statistics 4 or 5 4
*Credits awarded with department's permission</p>
<p><a href="http://www.jhu.edu/admis/faqs/apib.html%5B/url%5D">http://www.jhu.edu/admis/faqs/apib.html</a></p>
<p>Regarding the use of AP in admissions, this article is worth quoting:</p>
<p>
[quote]
The College Board is making an aggressive push to expand the AP testing program. College Board president Gaston Caperton said at a news briefing that "a strong AP program elevates the academic climate of a school." The College Board cited studies that show that taking an AP course by itself is not an indicator of college success, but students who also take the exam and get a score of 3 or better are more likely to succeed in college.</p>
<p>Others do not place strong weight on AP scores. Lee Stetson, dean of admissions at the University of Pennsylvania, says that "we rarely use actual scores on the exam as a measure of competence. Often, we don't receive scores until after the selection process is over."</p>
<p>Saul Geiser, a University of California-Berkeley researcher who is co-author of one of the studies cited by the College Board, sounds a cautionary note about the use of AP tests in admissions decisions.</p>
<p>"AP courses were originally developed to place students into higher-level college courses," he said. "It is now being used in admission decisions, a purpose for which it is not intended and for which it has not been validated." </p>
<p>The University of California has given applicants bonus points simply for taking an AP course, a practice that Geiser's research has called into question.</p>
<p>Colleges once routinely offered course credits to students if they scored 3 or higher on an exam. But as more students qualify, some institutions have tightened up and now require students to score at least a 4 to earn course credit. Some highly selective colleges only accept a 5. </p>
<p>Some schools also limit the number of course credits students can receive. At Pomona College in California, students receive credit for a maximum of two courses, no matter how many 5s they have earned.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>Source: <a href="http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-01-25-ap_x.htm%5B/url%5D">http://www.usatoday.com/news/education/2005-01-25-ap_x.htm</a></p>
<p>SJmom
Thx.I'm glad things worked out well for your S also.</p>
<p>
[quote]
Some schools also limit the number of course credits students can receive. At Pomona College in California, students receive credit for a maximum of two courses, no matter how many 5s they have earned.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>This was true at S1's LAC also. But the CB is not the only organization seeking to maximize profit. LACs that do not grant Advanced Standing may have (dare on say it?) non-academic reasons for not allowing students to graduate in less than four years. State universities, by contrast, are struggling to address the needs of the students in their state and are unlikely to run out of qualified applicants.</p>
<p>Back in September, I went to my D's back to school night.You get a chance to meet all the teachers that your kid will have during the year ask some questions etc. At one of her AP courses, her teacher remarked that they expect all kids who take the course to take the AP exams.I never understood why he said that until now.
Ranking high schools is a bad idea of the highest order.</p>
<p>This is the exact language used by Pomona:</p>
<p>
[quote]
3. College Courses Taken While in High School. Credits will be allowed for transferable courses on receipt of a college transcript.</p>
<p>There is no limit to the amount of advanced standing credit that may be accrued through Advanced Placement, International Baccalaureate and pre-matriculation college courses, but credit for advanced standing does not supersede the Colleges requirement of 30 post-college-matriculation courses as part of the 32 courses needed for graduation.
[/quote]
</p>
<p>While I understand Marite's subtle questioning about keeping an eye towards revenues, I still believe that maintaining the credits to an absolute minimum -but allowing unlimited advanced placement- is a step in the right direction.</p>
<p>Xiggi:</p>
<p>I agree with you, despite my dig at the colleges for not offering Advanced Standing (just wanted to point out that CB has lots of company in the financial eagle eye department).
Unless finances make it imperative to tear through college, the opportunity to take great courses and expand one's horizons is so much richer than in high school. Why not avail oneself of this opportunity?</p>
<p>xiggi wrote:
[quote]
I am unrepentant for my criticism of the explosion of the AP program, as well as it its use for a purpose for which it was NEVER intended: college admissions. My argument rests on a very simple proposal, and that is that high schools should be high schools and colleges should be colleges. The AP program furthers the unfortunate blurrying of the lines by trying to establish a de facto standard for high schools that is simply ... wrong.
[/quote]
Couldn't have said it better myself. AP was supposed to be advanced placement. It infuriates me to read quotes from researchers at the University of California stating as much while their own admissions offices give extra weight to AP classes (regardless of their quality, and some of them are less rigorous than the regular class at another high school) and actually at one point about 6 years ago came right out and told our community at a "town hall" type meeting that they UC "likes to see 17 semesters of AP" on applicants' transcripts. UC speak with forked tongue. </p>
<p>These big universities created this mess by giving so much weight to AP classes in admissions decisions. (Note I did not say they created this mess by giving weight to AP credit. That's a different kettle of fish. I am all for AP credit. If a kid can get a 4 or a 5 on the calc AP test and feels comfortable moving on to the next level in college, I am all for giving him credit. One of my kids benefited tremendously from AP credit.) As soon as the mere signing up for AP classes becomes a factor in admissions, everyone justifiably wants the same shot at them, including students for whom AP is not appropriate. "AP" has become synonymous with "college bound" when it really was supposed to be "college level." Take the test and pass it, or take the SAT II and nail it, that should be something admissions should look at, but just taking the class? meh...</p>
<p>My daughter's AP Bio II class at her current high school was less rigorous and less comprehensive than her regular 9th grade Biology I class at her old high school. It was a waste of a year. She desperately wanted to take choral music or ceramics senior year, but she had to take the "most demanding" classes, so a less intensive rehash of 9th grade biology took the place of something that would have added another dimension to her life. The irony is that even if by some miracle she were to get a 5 on the exam, she has no intention of skipping her college's intro class because she will be majoring in a field of biology where she feels she will need a true college level biology background--something she has not yet received despite having taken two biology courses, including AP. What a mess, when you think about it. </p>
<p>We can say what we want about CB and $$, but if every college admissions office across the country announced tomorrow that from this point on, the mere presense of AP classes on the transcript will no longer be considered in admissions decisions, participation in AP would fall back to appropriate levels: namely, students who want to take the advanced class for no other reason than it promises to offer a more challenging experience with some possible college credit to boot. These would be the kids who are pretty sure that they're not choosing between getting an B in regular physics and a C in AP physics; they would be the kids who know they will have to put in a lot of extra time and effort in order to get an A and are willing to run the risk of getting a B in the AP class. I.e., the ones who belong in "advanced" placement. </p>
<p>I also find it disturbing to think that, taken to an extreme (which is what this "Best High Schools" list appears to want to do), offering AP classes to vast numbers of students for whom such courses were not intended not only waters down the AP classes, but could also seriously impact the quality of the regular class. If every college bound student is in the AP class, who is in the regular class? Does anyone even care about that class anymore?</p>
<p>"The list should be entitled, "Schools Where Parents Have the Money to Pay $84 Per AP Exam." Because that's exactly what it measures."</p>
<p>Many school systems pay for the AP tests so the parents don't have to pay for them.</p>
<p>As to the poster who believes that AP results make no difference I find that highly unlikely. I think my son will look like a stronger applicant with fives on tests he's taken already and the ones he expects to get this year.</p>
<p>I am somewhat familiar with three of the schools on the "Best" list, including one of the ones highlighted by the NYT (where I turned down a teaching job). Seeing them on the list, I just shake my head, and wonder about the rest of the ones cited. It just does not make sense to me.</p>
<p>Bush has initiated a program to train 70,000 high school teachers to lead advanced placement math and science courses. This is a part of our US plan to compete with China in training math & science students. Perhaps it is promoting the AP curriculum that is a part of our problem. I personally think US high school is 1 year too long.</p>
<p>Advanced placement courses do not come in a "one size fits all" standardized kit and neither do teachers. The CB recognizes that there are new, as well as experienced teachers, and "basic" as well as advanced AP courses. This particular ranking equates the quality of education in these high schools based not upon the quality of the AP courses but simply on the exam. This begs the question: what makes a good advanced Placement course? </p>
<p>Digmedia, would you be able to elaborate a little further on what points puzzle you the most?</p>
<p>hazmat, be thankful we don't have the German gimnasium system - there is a 13th year!</p>
<p>A great high school meets the needs of all their students, not just the highly able. Where are the kids who shouldn't be taking AP classes in these top-ranked schools? Just getting shuffled along in AP classes that aren't really AP classes? And what about those schools charged with educating poor kids, or large numbers of ESL kids, or non-traditional students? Schools that turn potential dropouts into graduates, along with producing top-notch students who successfully take rigorous AP classes, deserve praise for meeting the challenge of individualizing education according to needs and abilities. There doesn't seem to be a list for that though.</p>
<p>The guy who wrote that list has been professionally embarrased as a nitwit.As the NYT article pointed out schools in Fla that are ranked near the bottom of the entire state by Florida's school system are rated as "Best in the country" by this purported expert.</p>
<p>Than he attempts to cover his tracks by pulling a Clintonese define the word best.Absolutely a pathetic attempt by both the author and the magazine</p>
<p>Apparently our current administrators have lots of faith in the AP and how it documents excellence in a particular school.</p>
<p>An interesting back and forth took place between a counselor at a good NJ high school and Jay on a professional listserve.</p>
<p>If you're interested in reading more:
<a href="http://scottwhitesworld.blogspot.com/2006/05/americas-best-high-schools.html%5B/url%5D">http://scottwhitesworld.blogspot.com/2006/05/americas-best-high-schools.html</a></p>
<p>The question is, who cares about the rankings? Stop whining, stop caring. Can any of you tell me you were rejected from your dream school because where you went to high school wasn't on that stupid list?</p>
<p>The colleges look at you, not where destiny, your family's social and financial status, and your native location sent you to school.</p>