<p>Godfather, that which is measured is altered in the process. My kids are done with high school and our public school is on the list, so my real estate values aren't threatened. I care anyway because I don't want to see schools changing the way they do things in order to jockey for position on an extremely flawed list.</p>
<p>1Down2togo, I couldn't agree more (and my D's school made the elite list, so I've no sour grapes either). </p>
<p>Even Mathews talked about the motivation for high schools to game the system (when he said he didn't want to rank by score on AP tests, because schools would limit who could take them to the top students). It's bad enough when colleges do it for the USNWR rankings, we don't need it at the high school level. </p>
<p>What Matthews failed to mention, is that his measure (AP test taking alone) doesn't stop schools from gaming the system by offering allegedly AP courses that are nothing but. Admittedly, it's one instance, but I met a college freshman recently who told me that in her AP chemistry class, all they did all year was memorize the periodic table. No labs, no calculations, nothing. </p>
<p>I am also concerned that schools might be tempted to drop challenging, interesting courses that there isn't an AP for, like the astrobiology D took this semester at her HS.</p>
<p>I was recently told that a high school that will have 8 (yes, eight) sections of AP Chem next year for a junior class of about 520 kids. Say there are 25 kids per class...are there really 200 kids qualified for AP Chem? I kind of doubt it. </p>
<p>Seems like the whole purpose of AP classes has just gotten lost in the shuffle here.</p>
<p>So are you saying that a student must meet a qualification to take an AP course? APs aren't that hard so I see that ratio you mention as not so big a deal myself.</p>
<p>We have 950 in the senior class (1,000 + in junior), but only one section of AP Biology, one of AP Physics, and two of AP Chem. yeah, we aren't one of newsweek's top high schools.</p>
<p>Well, personally I can't imagine that over one third (closer to a half) of a class is of AP caliber. It's statistically impossible according to any normal Bell Curve.</p>
<p>I guess that would depend on how difficult you think the AP course + exam prove to be. Once again, there isn't as high a standard as some think. Most advanced students I know of take higher level courses than APs during junior/senior years of HS. Some folks would liken the APs to state proficiency exams.</p>
<p>And if the school is teaching to the test, or teaching a well balanced program</p>
<p>My D took three APs this year, the US history was hard in that some parts were general theory and some were minutia when it came to facts</p>
<p>So, there is already backlash from colleges in seeing that some schools version of AP is very different from another and not accepting as many course as replacements for college credit</p>
<p>It will shake out in the wash, hopefully soon</p>
<p>I think every college-bound student should be able to handle at least one AP course in junior and senior year. Some of the kids in my AP classes are going to community college and many if not most are going to 2nd, 3rd, and 4th tier state schools. Most students can handle the work, but my school is very lazy in general in regrards to academics.</p>
<p>I have heard lots of stories like yours. Really if HS taught mostly APs there would still not be big problems passing the exams. Thanks for your first hand report.</p>
<p>Interesting, I was talking about AP classes with my aunt on Mother's day. My cousin took one AP this year (junior year) and is planning on taking 2 APs in his senior year. My aunt told me that the school called her last week and asked why he had only signed up for 2 APs. She told the school that first, it was his senior year and he didn't want a schedule that was too intense and second, the only other AP class that would fit in his schedule was US History and he hates history!! My aunt said the GC got very upset with her and basically told her that by not taking this AP would hurt his chances of admissions to Clemson. Of course, my aunt laughed as he has enough credits and a high enough SAT score to get in to Clemson now! Tha conversation continued and as my aunt told the GC that he was NOT taking another AP class the GC blurted out that they NEEDED more students to enroll or they would not get the state money the school was counting on. So after all that - it turned out that the GC was no more interested in how well the class suited my cousin, nor was she really interested in his chances at Clemson...Oh, and thanks for the article link, I enjoyed reading it.</p>
<p>Interesting that this thread is all about the AP. Our kids are in an all IB program where EVERYONE does the diploma, and no AP classes are offered. I agree that it sounds like the chase of AP numbers has completely miscontrued the purpose of the AP to begin with. crazy. </p>
<p>My issue with the IB is not the curriculum which is fantastic, it's the timing of the actual exams, which fall well (Spring of senior yr) after college decisions are made - so if colleges are looking for standardized test results they are just going to see a few SAT 2s and SAT/ACT. AP proponents argue against the IB, saying the IB will only get you 3 credits (at most). Now I am of the school that says why rush college, why do you want more than 3 credits anyway? Some of the best (and easiest) classes in college can be the intro classes - why trash your GPA by wading straight into upper level classes you may not be prepared for?</p>
<p>Indy:</p>
<p>For the IB, adcoms consider predicted IB exam score; and you only need 3 IB scores vs, 4 AP scores to get the same amount of credit. For example, at Harvard, you need 3 IB scores of 7 or 4 AP scores of 5 to be eligible for Advanced Standing.</p>
<p>marite - I would argue the IB bar is much higher - a 7 is incredibly difficult and it is almost unheard of to see all 3 7s on your HLs. In fact all of my son's teachers who have taught IB for years have told him that that IS impossible - maybe one or two 7s overall but 3 in HL? fuggetaboudit. Never. I would like to know what the % of 5s are in AP. Most places give you credit for 6s and I could care less about Harvard.</p>
<p>Indy:</p>
<p>Well, maybe at your school; but I know students who do have 3 7s on their IBs--many of them are internationals. </p>
<p>As for IBs being tougher than APs, some are and some aren't. I refer you to a study published several years ago by the National Research Council on math/science.</p>
<p>The point that I was addressing was your comment about IB scores not being available until AFTER decisions are made. My answers were: 1. adcoms look at predicted scores when making decisions. 2. you only need 3 IB scores to qualify for AS vs. 4 AP scores (or more, depending on how credit is counted) in the schools that do accept both IBs and APs. Harvard's policy was used as an example. Whether your son wishes to apply to Harvard or not the issue.</p>
<p>In some cases, it is true that AP classes are the most challenging available at a given high school- and how else can colleges weigh the relative strengths of two students' high-school classes, when class titles and curricula vary wildly from school to school? I've taken six APs over my HS career, and I know that the difficulty levels are far from consistent; Calculus and English Literature were the best, Euro was okay, US mediocre, and Environmental Science ridiculously easy. Still, because there's a test with a mandated set of information on it, colleges can count on some type of consistency between what is being taught at various schools. (Whether this information is relevant, or whether the format of the exam actually indicates college-level understanding, is another story altogether.) </p>
<p>At my HS, we have "general", "honors", and "AP/honors" classes. In English, the only "honors" class (with a higher-weight GPA attached) is AP Lit. If you don't take AP Lit, you take college-prep English, which is nothing more than an easy A for seniors, and does nothing prepare you for the level of insight and writing skill required in college classes. In this case, as I'm sure it is at many schools, taking the AP class, even without the exam, is indicative of the highest level possible at that school (although perhaps not college-quality.)</p>
<p>To those who insist that APs do not matter to college admissions: this is definitely untrue for the most selective schools. A student who has taken AP classes and exams and done well has demonstrated some degree of success and understanding in that field; a student with good grades in high-level classes, but no independent means of proving knowledge and understanding other than one teacher's evaluation, stands at a disadvantage. (Of course there are SAT IIs, outside projects, et cetera, so this isn't the only way.) Also, a student who turned down AP classes during his/her senior year to decrease stress or have an easy year is obviously not demonstrating a commitment to academics or a love of learning; rather, he/she is demonstrating a commitment to sliding by with the minimum. Colleges do ask for and consider your senior-year plans!</p>
<p>Fergus</p>
<p>I am the poster who thought that the AP exams didn't mean much if anything.However I must admit after reading through this thread about how schools are gaming the system,I was wrong.The tests are important precisely for the reasons who stated.</p>
<p>marite - I wonder if those 7s are all in their HLs. Our teachers have consistently told us (parents) <em>not</em> to expect 7s in multiple HL subject areas. Int'ls may have advantage on Language 2 if they are fully bi-lingual. I will be thrilled with 6s from my kids, and not worry about advanced standing at Harvard. ;) </p>
<p>I was just googling around and saw that Bowdoin, (not Harvard but high Tier 1 LAC) gives some potential credits for IB 5s depending on subject. I think this varies widely from school to school and even department to department and may reflect the biases and exposure of the faculty. I would urge any IB parents to look closely at these policies at the schools their children are considering as they change frequently and are far from uniform. </p>
<p>As you say, adcoms weigh predicted IB scores, but I have seen several examples where actuals vary wildly from predicted, both better or worse. The predictions are really down to the teachers, who may have an incentive to inflate to pump up their students chances, knowing that the actual results will play no role in the admissions process.</p>
<p><< In fact all of my son's teachers who have taught IB for years have told him that that IS impossible - maybe one or two 7s overall but 3 in HL? fuggetaboudit. Never. >></p>
<p>Indydukie, it happened where I am, and it was NOT an international student. Your son's teachers should do some research.</p>
<p>Is there anyone (or any hs or college) who wouldn't admit when pressed that the AP system as a whole is is as flawed as it could possibly be? That it occassionally serves its original purpose, which is to afford placement out of intro-level college classes or college credits, but typically does not indicate a challenging or deep experience? The only sure thing is that if you receive an AP designation on your transcript, many colleges will weight your GPA.</p>
<p>Good teachers are good teachers. Some can make a prescribed AP curruculum exciting, and some have to get extra-creative to work around the fact that there is a certain sacrifice of quality in favor of quantity in most AP classes. My daughter experienced the same gamut of quality in AP classes as in any others. Her experience is that science and math AP classes have been more successful than humanities, but not always. I'm curious if other kids feel the same. My sense is that reading lots of books and talking about them briefly is not as good a way to learn about literature as reading fewer books and talking about them more deeply. While there appears to be more reading, there does not appear to be any required writing in her AP classes.</p>
<p>The relationship between successfully completing an AP course and taking the AP exam has become very murky, and that is partly the result of the high schools' use of the AP exam, which is primarity as indicated in the NYT article: to advance rank. My daughter's HS blackmails kids into taking the AP exam by wiping off the AP designation from their transcript if they don't. You can ace AP Physics (supposedly the toughest class in the school) but if you don't take the exam it just shows up as an A in Physics. And of course, this public school, which is using the AP exam for their own purposes, does not pay for you to take the exam.</p>
<p>Many private high schools where we live have opted not to offer AP classes. To satisfy the squawking, they offer honors and advanced sections which will weight the grade. This allows teachers far more freedom in how they teach the class, giving them the opportunity to go for quality or quantity. But these schools do not need the Newsweek ranking.</p>