NYT - The Asian Advantage

Parent Cafe
181

I would like to present some more facts/perspectives.

This country didn’t really allow Asians to immigrate till 1965. So yes, Asians couldn’t easily get a visa to come to the USA some 50 years back, and yes that would count as racism.

When Asians started to come en masse after that, slowly becoming the number one source of new immigrants to the USA (even more so than Hispanics) first they were treated with quite a bit of hostility. When my brother was here in the 70s, people would stop him in the street and tell him to go back to his country. When I came in the 80s, the immigration officer at JFK looked at my visa papers and said that the country shouldn’t be giving academic scholarships to Asians when there are so many qualified Americans around. I have been in this country for nearly 30 years now, and I have faced all kinds of racism because of the color of my skin, though I must say it is rapidly dropping off. That could be because racism against Asian Americans are dropping, or it could be that my economic situation is improving in a way that shields me from racism in the street. I honestly don’t know.

The more sophisticated racism that I now encounter is the anti Asian American parenting style. I live in one of the most liberal parts of the country. Even here parents ask me in school events whether I make my son work ungodly hours as they hear all Asian parents do, whether advanced math is really that advanced, or if it is, whether it is actually worth anything, and whether my son actually wants to do the ECs that he does. The ECs would half fit the Asian stereotype, and half wouldn’t, but the question is always directed at the ones that would.

I have a thick skin and I ignore it all, but it is racism, pure and simple. I am not claiming victimhood, as I have succeeded regardless, but I find is dismaying when people claim that there is no racism in the USA against Asian Americans any more. I hope no one here will try to negate my experience here and say that I was not subject to racism. (Think about it - would you do it to an African American, a Hispanic, or a Jew?)

As for Harvard, it could be that Harvard does have a quota by profile (academic interests, ECs) and not by race but which produces the same results as Asians are self-selecting into certain profiles. However, then Harvard has no need to know the race of a student, so there should be no harm is passing a law (ala the UCs) that make considering race a federal offense in college applications. Will people who claim that it is the profile and not the race be aligned with this? I am genuinely curious.

As for the NYC SHS, one great point that was made is that public schools have a responsibility to serve the public at large and not just kids who do well in an exam. This, however, is an argument that can be extended to say that exam schools are always bad, and also that a public university system like say the UCs cannot have one group of kids in one UC vs another where the difference is academic or other performance. It should just conduct a random lottery. I personally believe in entrance exams, but I would like to see what other people think.

That said, I firmly, firmly believe that every single kid would get a chance to be well prepared for the exam. However, I also believe there does exist such public preparation centers free to all kids, but they are overwhelmingly used by Asian Americans. This leads to the old saying that you can lead the thirsty to the water but you cannot force them to drink in a capitalist society. They may just want a double-sized cup of soda instead, regardless of what Mayor Bloomberg wants them to do. As for private training centers, and how there are many of them in the Asian American neighborhoods but few in the other neighborhoods, this is how capitalism works. Businesses open up where there is demand, and not where there is no felt need but only untapped potential. It’s not an evidence of racism.

In general, different kids will always get different levels of preparation, given parental resources and commitment. The reality of living in a capitalist country is that people who can afford to get extra preparation will do so. It can come in the form of better test prep or a personal trainer in the gym or Botox injections for beauty. The only way to level the playing field there is to make everyone equal in terms of income, which is not realistic in the USA. Further, even within the same income band, parents who prioritize academics over other pursuits and expenses will have better academically prepared kids (which, of course, is trivially true).

This is a personal choice. There is no point decrying this. When someone is good at sports, do we ask whether they trained at home, or whether they have a personal trainer? No, we just accept that they could afford to have a personal trainer and were disciplined enough to work with the trainer. It could be because of their own initiative, or pressure from someone else important to them. Regardless, they are good in sports and win trophies. We do not handicap them based on their economic situation, their effort or their support system, and take trophies away from them. And before anyone points out that education changes lives and sports doesn’t, let’s talk professional athletes. We don’t penalize Andre Agassi (half Asian American) because his dad started training him for tennis at the age of 18 months.

But what about the kids with high potential who are falling through the cracks? This is ultimately, I believe, the topic that deserves careful focus. The main problem that I see in the US school system is locally funded schools. This leads to resource gaps and in turn sub-optimal schools. But will Americans at large be willing to transfer property taxes to poor neighborhoods to bring all schools at par? I would be very interested in knowing the answer to this question as well, and I think local school votes indicate that the answer would be a resounding no. Also, regardless of investment in public schools, the Asian American experience shows that education is really done at home. If the home environment is not encouraging investments in the school system will make some impact, but not a lot, and certainly not at scale. If we are not willing to change the culture at home to be more academically focused, then I posit that Asian Americans (and others like them who prioritize academics above all) will always have an academic advantage, prep or no prep.

So, given all of this, how can we ensure than all kids get an equal chance to attend an exam school? We can’t force them to study, they wouldn’t show up in the free coaching centers, and we are by and large not willing to take money away from our own school to give to the poor schools. Since we can’t pull them up, then we must pull others down. We can require that kids who work hard will no longer be allowed to, as that puts them at an advantage over kids who don’t. We can lower the cutoff such that anyone can pass that without having to work hard. Or, simply, since we are really not talking about all kids who are diamonds in the rough here, but only about URM kids, we can have race based quotas.

Now there’s an idea! Of course, we can’t ban preparation, and lowering the standard just defeats the point of having a high quality school. So, what do politicians do? They want to install race based quotas in public schools. As for private schools, they won’t say it openly, but odds are they impose race based quotas as well.

Is that racist or progressive? I don’t know, and it depends on your politics. I do wish though that people would simply come out and say that, that the only way to have a racially representative student body is to have race-based quotas, given that different races approach education with different mindsets and with different financial resources. Then we can discuss whether it is right or wrong.

182

TABLE: NYC has the highest per capita public school spending in the US
https://img.washingtonpost.com/blogs/wonkblog/files/2014/05/district-update.png

Here the rest of the Wash Post article:
http://www.washingtonpost.com/news/wonkblog/wp/2014/05/23/the-dramatic-inequality-of-public-school-spending-in-america/

The poor asian immigrant kids that get into Stuy are also attending NYC public middle schools.

183

Trump looks at Asian-American student and asks if he’s from South Korea.

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/entry/donald-trump-south-korea_56201e57e4b08d94253e88a9

Yes, the student asked a question pertaining to South Korea, but I don’t believe if a student asked about a policy concerning Germany, he or she would be asked if they’re German. As the author states, “that’s not a harmless question”.

184

Given that it was Donald Trump, not exactly a surprise…

185

Last week, I was standing in line for airport security. An elderly gentleman standing next to me asked, “Where are you from?” “American City X”, I said. “No, no, where are you originally from?”

I have virtually no accent, and anyway I didn’t talk to him first, so he didn’t hear me speak. All he saw was my skin color. I could very easily have been born and brought up in this country. Yet he had to ask me where I am originally from. Then he proceeded to share with me all the details that he knows about my country of origin, showing off, really, how much he likes foreigners and how much he knows about them.

I told him that I am an American citizen who has spent more than half of his life in the USA.

So no, it’s not just Donald Trump. It’s common Americans. Racism is alive and well. If I were white, I doubt he would have asked me that stupid question.

Aside, the Harvard student should have asked Donald Trump if he is half orangutan.

186

I’m asian, but my family is perfectly fine with me going to a state college. It’s me who wants to go to Stanford and the ivies because the financial aid they give and the atmosphere. I’m in love with Stanford’s campus and I’m pushing myself so hard right now that even my mom’s saying I should relax. But no, I want it sooo badly and the disadvantage is bogging me down…So no, I’m not that stereotypical asian who has “tiger” parents, but everyone assumes that I do well in school because my parents “supposedly” push me to perfection. I’m sick and tired of it. Yes, I play the piano. Yes, I want to be a doctor. But that is not because my mom pushes me, it’s because it is what I’m passionate about. When I wanted this as a kid, I had no clue that every other asian would play an instrument or want to be a doctor. This kid even told me at my school when I did well on a math test, “You’re Asian, You’re supposed to be smart!” Ouch…

P.S. Sorry for the rant, I just wanted to spill my feelings.

187

Didn’t say it was just Donald Trump. Indeed, part of his campaign is a blatant appeal to those who fear those whom they see as “foreign”. That he is having some success in the polls indicates that such unvarnished viewpoints, or the acceptability of such, is more common than just a fringe.

188

@ChangLa

FYI
On Being Asked, ‘Where Are You From?’

http://www.theatlantic.com/notes/2015/09/on-being-asked-where-are-you-from/405355/

189

The Atlantic article amused me. I liked the last approach best. I don’t think this is always a microagression, people need to make small talk. I spent five years in Germany and a year in France and managed to speak well enough that people asked me all the time where I was from, because (especially in Germany) they’d never heard an American who could speak German well, much less with a lot of Bavarianisms thrown in. I’m happy to tell anyone who feels like listening that my Dad’s father came through Ellis Island and that my mother’s family goes back to 1609 in Massachusetts. And if your Mom is from Japan, or your Dad from China, I find that equally interesting.

190

You’re assuming students who go to top middle schools need prep or tutoring to get a high score on the SHS exam. As with Asian-Americans who emigrated to the US after spending most of their K-6 or K-8 in thie nations of origin, that’s not necessarily the case.

The most advanced students in the better middle schools or those who prep at the same level to compensate for what the average local K-8 curricula lacks would not need prep in the math topics as their K-8 educations would have covered the topics well before fall of 8th grade when one takes the SHS exam to apply for entry as a 9th grader.

It also strikes me as strange as most Stuy classmates in my generation and older…including URMs never prepped or if they did so, only spent a few months at most…not years. And the SHS exam given today is practically identical in topics/substance as the one I took in the early '90s. Most of the newly arrived Asian-American immigrants who did prep for a few months mostly did so to get their English language/reading comprehension skills up to speed as English wasn’t their first language.

In fact, most alums from the mid-90s and earlier are stunned at increasingly frequent perceptions one needs years of prep as that wasn’t the perception back when we attended…and the exam we took is practically identical to the one currently used.

The exam didn’t change…the curricula covered in most NYC public K-8 was watered down during the Bloomberg years to make it seem the K-12 students had improving scores. A factor which became a scandal in the Tri-State local mass media when it was exposed a few years ago.

191

The increasing perception of the need to prepare for tests does not appear to be unique to the NYC high school entrance tests. Here on these forums, many students and parents now seem to assume that extensive preparation is needed for the SAT, ACT, SAT subject, and AP tests. Back when I was in high school, typical preparation was familiarization with the test format from the sample questions in the booklet that included the registration form. For Achievement (now SAT subject) and AP tests, the high school course that matched the content of the test was the preparation.

192

On the other hand, “where are you from?” properly asks where you live or where you grew up (depending on the context). Among a group of travelers, you may be asking each other where you live to make small talk.

It understandably bothers people when the same question is inaccurately used as a way of asking what your ethnic ancestry is, with the implication that you are really “foreign” even when you are not.

193

Whether asking where someone is from is a microaggression or not is highly dependent on the situational context and on who’s doing the asking and who is being asked.

When one is traveling abroad, it’s a natural question to ask.

However, if one is asked when one isn’t traveling and/or where one comes even after being told an answer the asker isn’t satisfied with(I.e. I’m from New York City) and he/she asks “Where are you really from” or repeats the question to denote dissatisfaction with the first response, it does become quite obnoxious as it reinforces the issue of “foreign-looking” Americans like Asian-Americans as “perpetual foreigners” even if we are native-born Americans. It’s also obnoxious as it’s an issue which is an unfortunate part of being an American who is “foreign looking” to “real murikans”.

Interestingly enough, this issue is also a sore point among some European immigrants of an older generation. My HS US history teacher used her experience as an immigrant to Ellis Island to discuss the history of immigration in US history and how she went from being an immigrant child to obtaining a PhD from an elite university many CCers clamor for undergrad and graduate admissions.

However, she became quite upset and asked us to stop asking us where she came from as once she became an American, that’s all anyone else needs to know and asking the question is offensive to her personally. Incidentally, she subscribes to the “old school” American views on education, personal/classroom discipline, and frankness of criticism when students don’t meet her admittedly high expectations.

194

There is really nothing wrong with asking some where he or she is from, as a matter of small talk, with the intention of finding out their current residence, where they grew up, their ethnicity, or anything that such a question may entail. However, it is racist to ask that question to mean current US residence for non-Asian Americans and ancestral origin/ethnicity for Asian Americans, as then the distinction is made solely based on race.

In other words, Asian Americans do not get upset at the question, but rather at the way the question means something different for them than it does for non-Asian Americans, based on their skin color, facial structure, accent, or what have you. Since non-Asian Americans find plenty of small talk to engage in with other non-Asian Americans, I would posit that they can avoid that ethnicity question with Asian Americans, and still be left with plenty of small talk to engage in. Like, for example, which American City the Asian American is from.

Those that say that they would be happy to answer such questions and hence it is not racist are really not seeing it from the perspective of Asian Americans. It shows a genuine lack of understanding of how minorities feel when they are treated differently from the majority. It doesn’t surprise me though. From reading the comments on this thread I feel that most non-Asian Americans here have no real deep experience with the Asian American community and appreciation for their feelings, aspirations, fears, dreams etc. (I didn’t expect them to.)

PS: I was amused when someone compared his/her experience as a temporary visitor to another country with the experience of Asian American citizens living in the USA. Asian American citizens are not temporary visitors. We live here.

195

What do people in California do if an Asian answers, “I am from SanFrancisco”? I assume there are many, second, third generation asians. Some of this may just be because people are not used to meeting many US born asians. Can we really jump whenever people don’t react properly to a rapidly changing social phenomena, in this case fully american asians?

196

Observation: People will often ask “what are you?” instead of “where are you from?”.

My son’s college room mate is Asian…he says he gets asked it all the time.

197

In California, when people as “where are you from?”, they really do mean “where do you currently live?” or “where did you grow up?”, not “what is your ethnic ancestry?”.

198

I wasn’t travelling abroad. I was living and working there. The question would come up when meeting with colleagues.

One of the nicest ways to approach I thought was a prospective teacher who was doing a demo lesson prior to us hiring her. She came into the classroom and the first thing she said to the kids was “Hi my name is ___. People often ask me where I am from. Well (she pulled down the US map) I’m from Long Island and she showed where it was on the map, but I was adopted from Korea and she pulled down a world map and showed Korea.” Then she proceeded to do a lesson based on Esmerelda Santiago’s memoir about growing up Puerto Rico - American.

199

I remember when we first brought our then-9mo daughter home from China, and a woman in the checkout line so, “Oh! She could be an interpreter when she grows up!” Well, yeah, she could…but she’ll have to a) learn English, and b) learn some other language before that can happen.

She gets the ‘tiger mom’ question all the time, too, from people she doesn’t know well. She just laughs it off.

200

I am occasionally asked where I am from in the sense of “what country are my ancestors from”. Not often, maybe once every few months. I’m white and my family has been here for many generations, but I know how to answer that question and it is with an 8 word string of European countries (and one native tribe) I memorized as a kid. White people do get asked that, though I am sure with less frequency than people who aren’t white or are but have an accent do.

I avoid asking people who aren’t white that question because I understand it is taken differently and I prefer not to offend people if I can help it, however.

Interesting point on the lack of studying for the shsat in the past. I took it in the 80s and didn’t study either, beyond familiarizing myself with the format. I went to a very normal public junior high, not a magnet or gifted program. Whether it not the test is harder doesn’t matter, it’s still not pass or fail, it’s the top x number of kids, do if everyone preps extensively, it is probably hard to be in that number if you don’t.