NYT - The Asian Advantage

Parent Cafe
161

To some extent true. However, many of our greatest contributors…including a sizable chunk of scholars, scientists, intellectuals, and Nobel prize winners tended to be immigrants who weren’t educated in our system or were only educated in our respectable/elite universities which in contrast to our K-12 system on average is world class.

In short, there’s something to the argument put forth in a dead-tree editorial I recalled reading years ago which states the innovations and advances in scholarship, science, intellectual thought, arts, etc our country benefited from are substantially a beneficial byproduct of the best minds in those fields opting to immigrate to and contribute their talents to the US.

Incidentally, one reason why US elite research universities outclassed others worldwide was because of a massive immigration by talented scholars, scientists, intellectuals, and artists fleeing turmoil as a result of WWII. Not too coincidentally, German universities which were widely regarded as having the best faculties in some key STEM fields like Chemistry and some humanities/social science fields in the late 19th and early 20th century* declined drastically during and after the war due to anti-Semitic policies which drove many of their best minds to the US.

  • Incidentally, starting in the late 19th century, elite US colleges either changed over or were founded from the ground up** to model themselves along the lines of the German research university as opposed to the more teaching oriented Anglo-American university which dominated US higher education up until the late 19th/early 20th century.

** I.e. JHU and UChicago.

162

I would like to correct some misconceptions that I have seen on this thread.

Someone mentioned that the Asian way of upbringing doesn’t bode well for admission to the schools like Harvard. This is actually not true. Asian Americans make up 6% of the population and 18% of Harvard. That shows clearly that the Asian American upbringing is working very well for admission to the likes of Harvard. No wonder Asian Americans are called Over Represented Minorities. The over-representation is by a factor of 3x. I am not sure which other ethnic group comes close to that other than the Jewish people. They are 2-3% of the nation’s population, and 25-30%+ of Harvard’s class share. Incidentally, Asians share with Jews a strong academically oriented culture. Harvard evidently respects that more than the non-academically oriented culture.

Why do Asians then complain of bias? That is because the share of Asians in schools like Harvard has stayed flat over the past 15-20 years, while the share of Asians have doubled in the population. Either the new Asian students are not as good as the old timers (unlikely), or Harvard changed something in their admissions criteria (there’s no public proof of that in my knowledge, but happy to be corrected), or there’s a quota. A quota, of course, is kind of racist, and reeks to high heaven. Hence Asian Americans complain. Regardless, the Asian American upbringing keeps churning out 3x over representation year after year. So that upbringing is actually doing quite well irrespective of the quota and is being rewarded by the likes of Harvard more than other upbringings.

Of course the advice Asians are given when they complain of a quota is that they don’t meet the criteria of Harvard. Which, obviously, is trivially true (as otherwise the kids would not be rejected). This is portrayed as a fault on part of Asian Americans (as racism is alive and well in the USA) in their lack of acceptance of core American values or something like that. They know what Harvard wants yet they are just unwilling to comply hence they deserve no sympathy is the general response.

Well, Asian Americans do know what Harvard wants, and that’s what has led to the 3x over-representation. I posit that it is other schools of upbringing that do not know what Harvard and the like wants, as they are underrepresented (including non-Jewish Caucasians, African Americans, and Hispanics). Plus, this is America. Everyone is supposed to be themselves, so why shouldn’t Asian Americans be themselves as well? After all, being themselves is not an euphemism for assimilation, or is it?

Which brings me to the issue of NYC SHSs. While Harvard doesn’t really say what it really wants (wink-wink, nod-nod), these NYC schools actually do. So, why can’t the students just comply? (It is, after all, the same advice given to Asian Americans.) Unfortunately, the chorus then talks about what is the “right” criteria and that SHS’ is clearly not the “right” one as the result is not “right” (too few URMs). Yet, no one would say that Harvard’s and similar schools’ admission criteria are not right. There the institutions want what they want, and those that don’t comply have themselves to blame.

I don’t think people who complain about the NYC schools while praising Harvard understand the irony here, but it is delicious.

Finally, as for this country being about this and that and not data, well, Asian Americans are supposed all about data, then (oh how boring!) yet they are also the richest ethnic group. It seems that data (whatever that means) does propel people up in the economic ladder in this country. So, in summary, Harvard likes it, NYC SHS like it, and the American economy likes it too.

I guess this country is about data after all.

163

Surely you have noticed that many high schoolers (particularly boys) seemingly cannot stop moving (so sports can be a useful outlet for such youthful energy), while people tend to become less active as they get older (often treating exercise as a chore rather than playing a sport to enjoy participating in). Of course, if people can maintain physical activity throughout life, perhaps obesity and other health problems associated with lack of exercise would be less common.

164

@ChangLa

“I posit that it is other schools of upbringing that do not know what Harvard and the like wants, as they are underrepresented (including non-Jewish Caucasians, African Americans, and Hispanics”

But we don’t want to sound racist, right?

Perhaps they do know, and THAT is why the 3x ORM remains “flat”? This is what bothers me. The idea that we are so smart as a group that we get in 3x more, but the lack of growth must show bias bc the others could not possibly have caught up…And it is data plus innovation…data alone is useless. Gosh, no one says an Asian can’t have creativity, charisma, etc. of course they do. Look at all they have done! But it cannot be learned, and all races have it equally. That is what I am saying. All races have that “plus” factor.

If this country were so racist, they would stop letting the Asian countries have visas. You get the same treatment as everyone else. What you do with it is up to you. So many have made such great use of it! Rejoice!

Some of this just offends us bc it smacks of a spoiled little girl complaining that she wanted a 4 carat diamond and platinum tiara (Harvard), and all she got was a stupid 3.9 ct diamond and platinum tiara (Stanford). (The argument, not Changla’s post).

165

@panpacific

If that’s the case, why are there fewer international students finishing grad programs? Half of them starts out, well qualified and only 25-30% get PhD. It seems to me domestic students are better qualified to conduct research although they may not me as competitive in getting the admission.

166

You make good points, ChangLa, but fail to consider that a reason there has been no growth in the numbers of accepted Asian despite a growth in the numbers applying may indeed be due to a lack of diversity WITHIN the population of Asian applicants. Yes, they do have the main attribute Harvard wants: top academics. But they also have an awful lot of violin, cello and piano playing; tennis playing and swimming; and math and science competitions. Harvard wants some of that too, but it seems that they don’t want more than 18% of their class to have profiles like that.

I am well aware that there are many Asians who deviate from this stereotype, but where I live I don’t encounter them. It’s stunning how many Chinese and Indian students choose exactly the same EC’s. Why? Because their parents share a limited view of what activities are valuable. And even within a general valued category like music, the Asians flock to just certain types of ensembles (orchestra). Furthermore, they cluster in STEM fields. Not one of my son’s Asian friends planned to major in anything but engineering or science with the end goal of med school. Harvard is going to want to fill their all their departments with bright students.

167

The number of students applying to almost all top schools had significantly increased, yet the general demographic distribution accepted students has been similar. No one group has been discriminated against. The overall applicant pool has increased, and the acceptance rates have plummeted, so more students overall will be waitlisted or rejected.

168

Changla: NYC high schools are not Harvard, they are tax payer funded public schools. Few are advocating for eliminating the entrance exam, but are concerned about equity in admissions. Outside tutoring is problematic but impossible to eliminate. If a high percentage of student applicants are tutored for the test, the score required for admission is going to be higher and the test may not find those kids with the highest natural ability, but instead those that have received the best tutoring. If those programs are not equally available in all neighborhoods, the situation is inherently unfair. Are most of the Asian students studying on their own at home or are they going to tutoring programs?

169

Harvard gets PLENTY of taxpayer funding: direct funding in the way of Pell grants, and subsidies via their non-profit status. I wish I also had a $37 billion tax-free income-producing egg.

170

^i agree with that. There is a bill to tax the earnings on endowments not used to fund tuition. Some endowments are pretty bloated.

171

I have no problem with the extra programs, or cram or whatever that is called. That is not really unusual, though it may be if lower income folks have to pay, a bigger sacrifice. I think it is great that they value Ed and work hard for it. It’s all great. I have no bad things to say about that as long as no kids are harmed in the making of a Harvard graduate:)

I only take issue with the idea that it must be racism when the objective result is so overwhelmingly not. 18% is not something to complain about in my book.

172

But HArvard is not a public school! Taking tax dollars is not the same thing at all.

173

Possibly because like many domestic PhD level grad students, they use the PhD as a means to obtain networking connections and a “free consolation Masters” so they have an elite/respectable US graduate degree to enter the job market as non-academic public and private sector institutions are making much better offers than remaining in graduate PhD programs or staying in academia.

This is especially common in STEM where industry do poach STEM grad students, Masters/PhD graduates, and sometimes like the case of a relative…academics who spent some time as university Profs.

  • He left not only because he had a much better offer financially, but also said in his field of engineering, research in academia is around 5-7 years behind the cutting edge in private industry so he opted for the latter.

And here lies a major cultural perception difference between a common relatively recent US view of education and other cultures or even some old-school American perceptions among older generations(born in 1930’s and earlier). In the latter, “natural ability” isn’t viewed as an immutable condition, but one which can always be improved upon with hard work and persistence.

For the same reasons, in the latter there’s far less sympathy for students/individuals who are “smart/bright/genius, but lazy” than what one may find in some corners of American society. Especially in upper/upper-middle class areas as I’ve observed with some well-off families of college classmates at our LAC who reinforced classmates’ own justifications for their mediocre or abysmal academic performance in college. This includes some who were suspended, or even ended up being expelled for not meeting the minimum academic expectations of our college.

174

When a private school takes a donation, taxpayers fund the deduction for the donor. In addition, the schools do not pay tax on their endowment income no matter how high.

175

Didn’t know that, but regardless it is not contradictory to what I said. Many international students don’t aspire to be college professors or research scientists. And some of those who do initially, after a couple of years in graduate school, may realize that getting in a PhD program or even getting the PhD is a lot easier than actually finding that dream job of theirs. There are simply far less demand for teaching and research professors/researchers with PhD’s in either academia or industries, much less than the demand for PhD students university faculty needs to conduct research in their labs. The high retention rate among domestic students could be explained by the fact that most of them choose to enroll in the PhD programs because they have genuine interest in academic research and with clearer career goals.

Are domestic applicants less qualified as a whole than international applicants? They could be. Most of the students from foreign countries typically need to have college degree (and in many cases a Master’s) from one of the best colleges in their country, high enough GRE and TOEFL scores and other qualifications to be in the game. In other words, it is a self selected group. As for domestic applications, I don’t think it’s a stretch to say that a large portion of the “best and brightest” of American students choose other paths than going for academic research. Capable STEM majors can study medicine, business, patent law etc. And a good number of them, those in technology and engineering in particular, once joining the workforce, never have PhD as part of their career plan because a PhD is unlikely to be helpful to their success.

176

I don’t have sympathy for people who make that kind of complaints either. But as I said in a previous post, there are many more Asian immigrants who appreciate what’s good in the American K-12 system, and as a matter of fact, some new immigrants would tell you that they have chosen to come to America because they wanted to get away from the school system in their home country that sometimes has become too intense for the kids.

I find this part of the post defensive and arrogant. If we are indeed “a nation of ideas and thoughts”, then we should be open-minded enough to accept and even (gasp) learn new ideas and thoughts from other cultures and nations.

177

While many East Asian educational systems are too cutthroat at times, that doesn’t necessarily mean the US K-12 systems on average is exempt from criticism or complaint from parents who must send their kids to local public K-12 schools and don’t have financial means and sometimes social capital/time* for the academically respectable/elite private K-12 options.

One issue with too many US K-12 public schools and many less academically rigorous private ones** is that too many students are being promoted to higher levels without having some proficiency in academic skills the local educational system expects students to master at each stage. One end result is far too many students graduate HS and attend college without having mastered basic written communication or math skills* (i.e. HS level algebra/geometry or sometimes even basic elementary school arithmetic). This is the student population friends who teach at public directional and 2 year community colleges work with on a routine ongoing basis. This is an issue which even affects some students who are admitted to respectable/elite colleges as many TAs recounted and from my own experience as an academic tutor at my LAC and just after graduation.

  • Many private K-12 schools mandate parents volunteer a certain number of hours each week in school as a condition of admission and continued enrollment. While good for privileged higher SES families able to support a SAHP or ones who don't need to work full-time jobs, that requirement means a lot of middle class and lower-income families in which both parents must work full-time+ jobs to make ends meet won't be able to conform to such requirements.

** I.e. Some former segregation academies in southern states like the one two then Mississippi-based cousins were unfortunate enough to experience for a year before their parents realized the academic level there made the average NYC public K-12 curriculum look academically elite in comparison. Both were pulled out with one attending a well-known NE boarding school and another attending an academically respectable regional Catholic private school.

*** One firsthand case was from tutoring an ex-GF of a friend who despite being allowed to take HS level algebra to complete her math requirement for a 4 year degree in Elementary Ed at a NE directional 4-year public U, failed it twice and was on her way to failing it for the third time. Only a combination of some tutoring…including having to explain she needed to put in more time/effort into the course than she had been doing and a Prof feeling some pity for her prevented her from getting a third F.

Especially considering a sizable chunk of the creative innovations which made US society and higher education great is due to our benefiting from creativity, talents, and innovations of immigrants who weren’t educated in the US or whose only exposure was at the university/graduate levels.

178

Cobrat: Not talking about smart but lazy kids nor the supposed belief among Americans that being smart is something you are born with and among Asians, something you work for. The unfairness is kids who do not have the option or opportunity to be tutored. Yes they could study on their own, but an experienced tutor likely does a better job of prepping than a kid with a workbook. Do you really think in a district that is 70% black and Hispanic, only 1-3% of those students are capable of getting a high score on the test, if they had the same level of preparation as kids who go to the top middle schools and are tutored? This is not a question of cultural belief, but one of access to good education and prep.

It starts with middle school

Above from a 2012 NYT article

179

Arrogant. Nice. We are a nation of immigrants. It is arrogant of you to think I do not include them/us when I say “we” or “this country”.

These (numerous/repetitive) threads always devolve into this… I should have followed my own plea: no mas. Ok. This time I am out. Enjoy the argument all:)

180

But you apparently only include those of them/us who conform to the “ideas and thoughts” of the nation, as you defined.