NYU Debt Stories

College Majors Musical Theater Major
21

<p>halflokum, even when my kids had off campus apartments, we ONLY paid for their housing for the school year. If they chose to work away from home during the summers, which both did EVERY summer, in various states and countries, they had to earn enough to pay for their own housing, food, and living expenses (in some cases, housing was provided by the job ,but not every summer). We did not support them in summers, and these included living in NYC, Paris, Boston, Zurich, and other cities. </p>

<p>NightOwl, it’s true my daughter plays piano. However, piano aside, my daughter has never relied on auditions alone and has diversified her career in music and theater. ALL of her jobs have been in music and theater in a variety of capacities. She is not waiting for the next casting opportunity as the only way to be on stage or make music, etc. She has at least three careers going at one time. This past year and going forward, she is constantly cast in a show performing 8 times per week (this hasn’t been just one show), but is still working on and earning money in her other careers which are all in music and theater. It isn’t simply the fact that she can play piano. I would encourage all these BFA students to diversify and be involved in many aspects of performing arts unless they want their survival jobs to be in completely different fields. </p>

<p>By the way, my daughter’s schedule is very busy and not designed around being available to audition. She has very little time available to audition and doesn’t even audition that frequently. If one has an agent, then days are not spent filled up at open calls (she never goes to these). Just to describe her last two auditions, both quite recent in NYC (got the part both times)…For the first one, she was performing a show 8 times per week in the Western US and flew into NYC for 24 hours on her day off to perform in two events in one night and had the audition when she got off the plane before heading to her performances in NYC. The second audition, which happened to be less than a week ago, she was performing in a city in New England 8 times per week and had to audition in NYC. I drove her to NYC in the wee hours of the morning, and she did the audition in the morning and drove back to New England and performed on stage that night. So, her jobs have not left her “free to audition” all that easily, but nonetheless she has gone to an audition here and there and luckily been cast. But she definitely doesn’t leave her days free to audition. She is constantly working but beyond the rehearsals and performances, some of her other work has some flexibility, and she has squeezed in an audition here or there, even if on the ground in NYC for less than a day (though she typically does live in NYC, she has been performing out of town the past five months and has some more out of town engagements coming up. It is a crazy schedule but just saying that not everyone takes night jobs so they can audition. Even when she did have survival jobs (she hasn’t taken any survival jobs in the past year), they included daytime work like teaching college or musically directing youth theater programs and if she had an audition, she would have to arrange for a substitute to take her place at work and give her salary to that sub. </p>

22

<p>I thought this was NYU Debut Stories and was so confused how you all got so far off topic…perhaps its time for new glasses…carry on. :)) </p>

<p>PS SoozieVT I saw your D on the Tony’s I am betting it won’t be the last time!</p>

23

<p>MTMajorCook…yes, it was a shock when she appeared across my TV screen. Very unexpected. I guess it is one way to be on the Tonys without being in a Broadway show. </p>

<p>We did get off topic, though I find in conversations of this sort, often one thing leads to another. I guess to stay on topic, I have to go write a check for the next NYU loan installment now! :)) </p>

<p>PS…I can think of a stand up routine playing off of NYU Debut…like a debut-ante ball where one comes out…and at NYU, there are many who finally feel free to come out! OK, back to our regularly scheduled program on DEBT. Debuts are far more fun than debt! Just sayin’!</p>

24

<p>Soozie, your D is extremely talented. I don’t see how my D could live in NYC without any help from me. Of course, my D is not as multi-talented as yours. But living in NYC for the summer - or even Chicago where she is based - would be a huge huge budget worry for her. It is extremely expensive–there’s rent, transportation, food. How could a 20 year old make enough money to live in NYC during the summer <em>and</em> do theatre with no help at all from parents? I’m sure I’m dense but I just don’t understand it. I mean, I get living in the city if your apartment is taken care of. But if you also have to pay rent out of your minimum wage salary? How is that done? Is it serendipity, in which case it cannot be relied on, or is there a strategy?</p>

<p>I think my D is more like Halflokum’s–if she did get something it would be hobbled together and very stressful, but exciting too. My D is a rising Junior and is doing an internship with a Shakespeare theatre, and a summer acting workshop (she’s paying for that out of her savings). She applied to many things, but they all fell through for one reason or another.</p>

<p>I’m putting that out there because I feel that if people only hear wild success stories, they run the risk of giving up. They think that that’s normal, and anything else means they’re a failure, and that’s not true. So many very successful actors had to slog through years of failure and rejection before they made it, too many to count here. The path definitely does not always have early success for most people. I say this because if our sons/daughters do not meet with early success - if they are not cast in college roles they love, if the summer plans fell through, if they graduate and struggle to find work - that does <em>not</em> necessarily mean they will not make it in the business. It’s a very difficult business and you really have to have the ability to slog through despite rejections. </p>

<p>And of course the other issue is supporting yourself. I am not well off and my kids cannot rely on me at all. It’s not that I choose not to support them even–I cannot support them. There is a difference. If I choose not to support them, they know in the back of their mind that if there were a crisis, or a dry spell, I"d be there to pull them out. I cannot. I do think this also contributes to what risks you are likely to take post-graduation. That and the amount of debt you have. Most people cannot rely on paying off their debts by being in a B’way show. I mean, great for that person, but that’s not the reality for most people. I’d like practical strategies for living post-graduation. I know several people who drop out of acting because they get tired of being poor. These are talented people. This worries me, naturally. For my D, at least at this point, her own plans are not settling in NYC since it is too expensive. SHe is more interested in regional as she can afford to live in a smaller city. For those who are musical, cruise ships seem to be a good way to pay off debt–or they sound like they are. I’m very interested in hearing from those who are not super-talented or super-fortunate–what strategies did they use to pay off debt and support themselves? </p>

25

<p>We are paying for my S’s living expenses this summer so that he can do an acting internship that will, we hope, allow him to make connections and get work later on. The internship pays almost nothing and takes up most of his time. However, it’s full of people who work all the time in Chicago theater and who could be very helpful later on. He’s also getting some equity points. He’s working at a donut shop part-time when he can for money and he spent the early part of the summer building an opera set for pretty good pay. He’s living in a fairly remote Chicago neighborhood with three other kids and has cut his dorm housing costs in half (they will live there next year as well so his full-year housing costs will be less than what we paid last year for ten months). So, yes, we are giving him a couple of thousand dollars to get him through the summer, and it seems like a worthwhile investment. Better to be working for nothing now than later when he graduates and has debt payments. He’s also getting the chance to audition, a lot, and while nothing has materialized yet, he did get a callback for a fairly major part in a professional play. </p>

26

<p>connections…I think you don’t have an accurate impression. I don’t help support my daughters in summers when they live away from home during the college years and once they graduate. Like you, even if I wanted to or believed in doing that, I could not afford to do that. It is a struggle for me to just pay their college loans. So, you may think I am just CHOOSING to not support them (and yes, I do believe adults should support themselves), but I CAN’T support them in summers or when out of college. So, I just wanted to be clear about an assumption you may have made. I haven’t supported them through a “dry spell” or anything like that. My kids just knew that any summer job they took away from home (and all their summer jobs were away from home) had to earn enough to pay their expenses to do the job (and in some cases, the job came with housing or in another case, one kid earned a grant). I’ll add that due to some recent developments, my kids are now having to contribute some to their college loan debts.</p>

<p>Yes, NYC is pretty expensive. My D has lived in Brooklyn since senior year of college (in several different apartments and just moved to a new one in fact). She lives in neighborhoods and apartments that are inexpensive and has a share in the apartments. Her rent is relatively low, by NY standards. She pays FAR less than what we were paying for her to live in a dorm. I venture to say that SOME parents would not be happy with the neighborhoods she has lived in. She lives where she can afford to live. </p>

<p>She has been out of school for five years and is now 25 (graduated at 20). I would say for the majority of this time, her income was quite low but she was able to make her living expenses. She was earning money from several sources including survival jobs (though her survival jobs were all in theater/music). She also performed for free in many things. People might wonder how she lived on a small amount but it was doable. However, she did not have to pay for college loans or her own health insurance. That helped. She works VERY hard…7 days per week at many different jobs and sources of income. It is not all through being cast in shows. And while she has been performing as one of her “jobs” since graduation, it is only in perhaps the past year that she has been cast in something consistently (that is four years out of college!). She has earned money in other capacities in other words. </p>

<p>You ask how a 20 year old can make enough in NYC and do theater and not get help from parents for expenses? My kid HAD to. Thus, certain options were not open to her. I already explained that the first summer, she did not live in the city and did summer stock that came with housing and got paid $75/week. No help from parents except we did pay gas for her car that summer. The three other college summers involved a theater job associated with her college (NYU Reality Show)…she was creating and performing theater through that job, and the job paid pretty well (she did get a higher salary than the rest of the cast as she was a writer/performer like they were but also was musical director) but the job came with housing and some of her food (dorm room and 10 meal allowance). She wasn’t saving money, but earned enough to live. This was no different than a lot of her friends (though she does have friends whose parents still support them, this is not true of all her friends, nor of her boyfriend, also an actor, and who also did NYU Reality Show during summers during college). By the way, her boyfriend, also a Tisch grad, earns all his money in the arts and has to pay off some college loans too. </p>

<p>While my kid does have a varied skill set, she works many jobs at one time, when just ONE of these jobs would be what many people would consider their only job. She works way more than 40 hours per week. You may consider her a success story in that she earns all her money in the fields of music and theater, but it is cause she has not given up and hasn’t waited for the audition Gods to cast her in something. She has pieced together other work and not relied on begin cast in something (and hasn’t always been cast in something until recently). And even if she is cast in something, it doesn’t always pay that highly (she has never been on Broadway or in a high salary show). You’d be surprised at how low the Off Broadway salary was! She just took a two week workshop as a lead in a new musical and it barely pays but she wants to be involved with the people in this project who are well known. She can do it because she is earning money through other jobs at the same time and will work on those at night when not rehearsing the workshop during the day. Her first role out of college was a national tour through Theaterworks USA, a well regarded theater for young audiences, in which she got her Equity card. It paid pretty low. For the past five months, she has been out of town in shows and these shows come with housing, and she sublet out her share in her old apartment and saved money that way. </p>

<p>When I told my daughter that some kids I knew of were giving up on performing arts after not being cast a year out of college…she said that is too soon…she hung in there and only now is getting more and more work on stage (yes, she has worked in the arts the entire time, but hasn’t always been cast in shows). She has had many different jobs. This year is the first time she hasn’t taken any survival jobs. Past survival jobs have been teaching Mommy and Me music classes, musically directing high school age MT programs/shows and choral groups, accompanying for shows, teaching college, coaching, and so on. Now, she has more work being cast in shows consistently (but this is after four years out of college) and commissions to write musicals and so forth. But she still does a lot of work that does not pay. She is a singer/songwriter and performs regularly in NYC but that is not typically for pay because if she earns anything, she pays all her musicians and back up singers with that. For four years, she was a writer/performer in a musical sketch comedy troupe and earned no money doing that but kept performing ever since she graduated, though earned money through other work. It has taken a lot of initiative, persistence, working round the clock, etc. to get this far. It is not like she has been cast since day one, been on Broadway, or anything of that nature. She also is not right out of college at this point and so has built up her network and now is having more success several years out of the gate. Along the way, on several occasions, she has won some awards, and these awards have come with a money prize and that has also been helpful. I realize that may not be as common. My other daughter, not in the arts, has won some prizes, grants and so forth as well. While neither kid can count on those, the awards have helped with their expenses. But it is not like my kid got out of college and was cast in a Broadway show (which also pays well) and was all set. She has had to pound the pavement and take on a variety of jobs and cobble together enough money to live on and work 7 days and nights a week usually. Success did not come right away at all. </p>

27

<p>If your kid “makes it”, it 's not an issue. But the problem is for those kids who DO NOT. And most DO NOT. For anyone who has a child who is doing fine, it’s all well and good to say it can work out well, which it can, but then it wouldn’t matter if the child had 6 or even 7 figures in loans for NYU. The problem is that if the kid doesn’t make it, it can be a huge problem. </p>

<p>I have a kid who is finding work in the business and is considered having “made it” since he does have a place in Manhattan and gets by on his own. But as he is approaching his 30s, ummm it’s becoming an issue. Because he is barely making it. Even with NO loans, a great support system among friends, parents who have some extra money so he doesn’t have concerns of our financial well being and we can treat and give out some too, and family within a few miles so that he always has a cot and three squares if he needs them. He is very, very lucky that way, and NOT typical of a lot of the very sad cases I have seen where some wonderful high school and college talent has literally gone to the gutters. It is very tough out there. And for some of those kids whose parents put themselves in debt with stars in their eyes about their talented children and their dreams, this is a very serious problem. </p>

<p>Yet, it’s not one just for the theater kids. I am grateful that my son did go the BFA route as it is a terminal degree. Some of his friends and colleagues who took theater and got a BA have borrowed the easy $20K Direct Loans for their MFAs and ended up $40K at least, in debt Something I’m seeing in increasing numbers for grad students and is alarming me greatly. It’s one thing to be the stereotypical “poor, starving” artist, writer, grad student, beginning analyst or whatever right out of college or embarking on any career, and whole other to be that and also living under the ticking time bomb of a loan that is increasing by the tick, ruining credit and opportunities as time goes by. </p>

<p>I have no answers to this, just giving awareness. And I 'm looking right now at a kid who is not in the arts who is going down this path for grad studies in an area that is highly unlikely to give payback for monetary investment and loans, or even a job/</p>

28

<p>And remember, those grad school loans are unsubsidized. Interest starts accruing immediately. A $40K loan ends up being much higher than $40K.</p>

29

<p>glassharmonica…I hear ya…I’m paying back a lot of loans and one daughter went to graduate school for 4 years on top of the 4 years of loans for undergrad and so yes, it is a lot of money to pay back! </p>

30

<p>cptofthehouse…it is really hard out there for young graduates! The cost of living is high and the jobs are hard to come by and many have college loans to repay! I think it is even harder for those in the arts, because each job is fleeting, and not of the long term variety. They often have to piece together several jobs concurrently and most don’t last that long and so in essence they are always job hunting. It isn’t easy in other fields, but for instance, my other daughter who is in sustainable building design, has more job security and is not constantly job hunting now that she landed her first job out of graduate school. She even has potential to climb the salary scale at her company. </p>

31

<p>Soozie, your daughters are also not typical. Please make note of that. Your MT daughter got MERIT money from NYU which is very,very rare. And as I said, when it works out, it’s beautiful and wonderful. The problems is when it does NOT work out, and that happens more so than not, a lot more so. And these days the amounts are frightening and can tank a whole family. It’s wonderful that you can pay back your loans for your daughters. A lot of parents are hard pressed to do so, and really were counting on their kids paying back too, and it’s a huge blow when the money flow is still in that direction. </p>

<p>And yes, there are kids right out there too who will have continuing family support for their entire lives and connections in the business so that they too are exceptions to the rule. For many whose kids go into any profession, and theatre is just one of those many possibilities, there often comes that heart wrenching time, when some change in course has to be made or the financial future will be bleak. Right now I know a number of theater hopefuls, and everyone of them are ever so talented, one with a voice that would give you shivers (and I’ve heard a lot of top rated voices) who are going into health care fields because it’s the end of the line for them and their families. When you start hitting your mid 30s and haven’t been able to make ends meet, it can be a real problem. When one starts to draw the lines, I don’t know. I wish my son would change course, And I do not support my other son’s interest in going into graduate studies and debt. The chances are just not there for making a living wage, and I am truly getting concerned with what’s happening economically in a way i never have been. </p>

32

<p>^ A sobering reminder for those of us who have just gone through the application/audition/acceptance
roller- coaster and are breathing a sigh of relief because that thrill ride is behind us. Plenty more roller-coaster rides ahead for our kids.</p>

33

<p>@soozievt my daughter intends to make NYC her home after college. Can you advise what monthly expenses look like for rent, food, insurance, utilities, etc. Luckily, she will have no loans but I will not be able to help her financially. Trying to get an idea of what to expect. </p>

34

<p>cptofthehouse…I just want to clarify that both of my daughters received NEED based aid for undergraduate school. At NYU, I was told my D’s scholarship was partly based on need (we qualified) and partially based on merit. I also want to mention that people make assumptions about other people’s situations. In my situation, it is a real hardship to pay back the loans for both of my girls’ undergraduate educations and my one D’s graduate school loans. I don’t want to get into my personal situation here but suffice it to say, it is a financial hardship and situations can change during the period that such loans must be repaid. </p>

<p>NightOwl…I don’t know my NYC’s daughter’s budget for living as she is very independent and I’m not a that privy to her income and expenses. I do know the rent. For the past four years, she has paid from $700 to $1000 for her rent. (two bedroom apartment costs $1600/month as did her last apartment) Actually she typically paid between $700 and $800 for rent until this month when she got a new apartment with her boyfriend and is paying more than 50% of the rent because she wanted a second bedroom to use as a music studio since she does a lot of work composing/writing at home in her apartment (when not out of town which this year she is a lot) and she also can deduct that on her income taxes. She won a significant grant recently and because of that, is paying more for rent so she can have this extra room. Otherwise, she has typically gotten by paying about $750 in rent on average. This is in Brooklyn. We had been paying her health insurance for some of the time after graduation but she now gets health insurance through Actor’s Equity. I don’t know what she spends on food and she is not home a lot to cook. She also has to pay for a monthly subway pass. </p>

35

<p>Hey guys…aren’t we the same parents who researched, fought, and prayed to get our kids the opportunity for a BFA or BA in theater? This reality check is useful (and not limited to the debt of NYU- BU/CMU/Syracuse/Ithaca/Northwestern aren’t exactly cheap either!) Our kids are following their passion, and no matter what path their careers take- I think that is a great thing. I would recommend checking out the thread directly above this one on the list (at least on my computer) some great words of encouragement.<br>
<a href=“Responses our kids can expect for choosing an acting career - Musical Theater Major - College Confidential Forums”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/musical-theater-major/1656492-responses-our-kids-can-expect-for-choosing-an-acting-career.html&lt;/a&gt;
And if life does take another path- our kids have degrees, they will be ok. At the Syracuse audtion, Ralph Zito gave all the parent a copy of the following article, which I found very comforting.
<a href=“9 Ways a Theatre Degree Trumps a Business Degree | Change Agent”>http://changeagent.■■■■■■■■■■■■■/2013/09/13/9-ways-a-theatre-degree-trumps-a-business-degree/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

36

<p>@soozievt yes, your daughter’s rent is in line with what I see on the Gypsy Housing facebook page. Would $2,000 a month be an accurate estimate including rent, utilities, mta, food, entertainment, training and insurance. Too high? Too low? Am I missing anything?</p>

37

<p>Gosh @nightowl2 I sure hope that is too high an estimate. Put a zero next to “entertainment and training” to start out. Say goodbye to taxis and the LIRR vs. taking the MTA to JFK for that flight home that if you are lucky, your parents might pay for because you cannot. Probably won’t get a monthly MTA pass but mathematically chances are paying by the ride is cheaper unless you have a steady job 5 day a week job you commute to. Depending on where you live, you’ll do a lot of walking, even in the dead of winter vs the MTA because it can be faster and you’ll be counting those $2.50/ride tolls thinking, “if I walk in both directions, I can afford a small latte on the way to keep me warm.”. </p>

<p>Many survival jobs when you are first starting out pay a whopping 10-15/hour. (Retail, hostessing etc.) Bartending and waitressing with tips pays way better but you can’t get that work unless you have had experience… and by experience they want NYC restaurant experience. So you start where you can and hope to move into a job that tips. Theatre work often pays little to nothing but if you are lucky, you gain contacts and have a great time. Expect to be contesting for those same little to nothing jobs with other recent graduates AND people who have just come off a Broadway tour etc. </p>

<p>Do it anyway.</p>

38

<p>@halflokum I am sending this ^ to my daughter for a reality check. Does anyone know what health insurance costs are after age 26?</p>

39

<p>She might be able to get on Medicaid for nothing in NYC if her income is really low. (Or mostly under the table.) It’s a max of about $15,000 I think for an individual. Then you have to buy on the exchange, but at lower income you get big subsidies. Obamacare is a really good thing for young artists, as long as they live in the right states. </p>

40

<p>NightOwl, I am not really sure the amount one needs to be able to get by in NYC, but your suggestion of $24,000/year should cover it. I think my daughter has lived on less in the past. BUT…she doesn’t pay for any training. That is not really something she can afford. But, even though continued training is a good thing, I’d like to think that expensive four year degree that I am still paying off was a lot of training already. </p>

<p>I tend to visit my kids more than they can come home due to their very busy schedules. But if they were to fly home, like once or maybe twice per year, I do pay for transportation home because that is something sorta for me too, not just for them. </p>

<p>As far as utilities, I am not sure what they cost in total, but I know my kid doesn’t pay for TV/Cable. She does have WIFI internet though. </p>

<p>She must have a subway pass to get anywhere, since she lives in Brooklyn and all her jobs are in Manhattan. </p>

<p>When my daughter did survival jobs, they paid more than $10-15. They paid at least $25/hour. </p>