<p>@soozieVT, $25/hour for a survival job no less one 4 years ago is another example of how your daughter’s experience is not typical. I can assure you that people should assume 10-15 and if they manage something beyond that, it will be a fabulous bonus especially if you get plenty of hours (which is another thing you sometimes have to struggle to get… hence, more than one job). My daughter is working along side BFA graduates from schools all over the country in the restaurants she’s working at this summer. They are all actors. If they are waiting tables, they are doing better than 10-15. But my daughter is still a student without NYC restaurant experience (until now… but hostessing hoping to move to waitressing) and once upon a time so were they and they all had to start somewhere. </p>
<p>Since I’m “spreading the joy” about NYC I’ll take a moment to talk about housing. There are indeed decent places that you can rent in the $750-$1000 range in places like Astoria (Queens), some parts of Brooklyn etc. Maybe some in Alphabet City, Harlem, Stuyvesant but those would more likely push the upper end of that range or you would for sure be sharing a small bedroom with a roommate or your living room may double as a bedroom. If you want fancier, your own bedroom in a shared apartment, a doorman, etc. you will probably be paying more like $1500 and up. If you want to pay $500, you might want to think about places in NJ that at least are on the NJ transit line. </p>
<p>If you can assume somebody’s lease (or just sneak in), you may not need your parents involvement. If you want to do this all nice and legal like, chances are your parents will have to demonstrate that they have assets X number of times the rent and they have to be willing to cosign (we are not yet) which means assume the risk for all of the behavior and comings and goings of the Y # of people you have to live with to afford it never mind the stream of future roommates you will likely have because somebody takes a job outside of the city etc. </p>
<p>Do it anyway.</p>
<p>As I wrote, my D has paid about $700 to $750 per month for her share of the rent (before utilities but heat was included) until this month. She has never shared a bedroom with a roommate up until now and she has also always had a separate living room that is not somebody’s bedroom. Her boyfriend, up until now, was in a three bedroom Brooklyn apartment (with a separate living room) and he was paying $500/month. </p>
<p>My D’s survival jobs were not waitressing or retail and that may be why they paid more. She had a variety of jobs but they all were in the arts. In the past, her boyfriend (also a Tisch grad) had a survival job not in the arts (his survival job is in the arts now) and it was babysitting but it paid well and affluent families in NYC pay well for that. Affluent families have paid my D to give their kids a piano lesson ($100/lesson!)…funny but she and I were talking about that the other day because one boy we know she gave some piano lessons to when he was about 13 and she was in college and about age 19), is now starring in two hit movies (he is now 20). She has also done vocal coaching privately and at a nice hourly rate. Teaching and musically directing or accompanying in youth theater programs tends to pay around $25/hour. </p>
<p>halflokum, once your D moves into waitressing, she will earn more with the tips. Remember, she is still a college student. </p>
<p>When my D was a freshman in college, and still 17, she worked doing some theme birthday parties through a musical theater program for youth and so on a Saturday, she maybe did a party or two, and got about $100 for it. So, there are some jobs like this when you can get better than minimum wage. </p>
<p>I realize not everyone can play piano (but listen up parents of kids who are not yet in college…piano is a handy skill to have for many reasons)…but I forgot to mention that during the summers in college, or a couple of them…an additional job my kid had was as an accompanist in the summer MT program at Tisch and that pays about $25/hour. I think one year in college she did this for the high school level weekend program at CAP21 too. If you have some experience or some skill you can do on the side, you may be able to make money doing it…working with kids, teaching, coaching, accompaniment, and so forth. </p>
<p>Sometimes money comes by sheer luck and falls in one’s lap. I recall a year or two ago, my D was performing at a benefit for a theater in NYC where she was the composer in residence. You never know who is in the audience if you get yourself on stage (even for free, as this was, no pay) frequently in NYC. After that concert, the JCC in Manhattan, who had a rep attending, called my D up and asked her to write a song for their fundraising event and come sing it and paid her $5000 to do that! Another time she was performing for NO pay was just playing a concert gig at a club in NYC. Someone in the audience was associated with a company that was doing a promotion of rising stars in America and that person went back to her company and mentioned my D as someone and next thing she knew, she was chosen by that company as the rising star for their campaign and given prize money for it. Sums of cash that are unexpected have fallen at times, and one thing I can advise…is perform as much as you can on stage, even for free…my D has done this a LOT the past five years and by doing so, things have come her way. So, don’t wait to be cast in something…go out and perform in some capacity on stage. And at a place like NYU, so many peers are doing projects in the city…be in them…network…perform for free…start a theater company…perform in concerts and cabarets. You really can’t afford to wait for opportunities to come to you. Create them, while paying your bills through survival jobs. Keep plugging away. Network…it all takes time. It doesn’t all happen right after you graduate (I guess we know some kids who were cast on Broadway right away but most are not). It has taken time to build a career, at least that is what I have observed with my own kid. It didn’t all happen upon graduation!</p>
<p>SoozieVT, I don’t know if you realize it or not, but I’m trying to address connection’s questions and those of a few others who came later in the thread. You are continuing to provide examples that are quite specific to a very fortunate situation. Well deserved and I’m sure there are other students and graduates that are also able to make certain things happen for them because of talent, luck, connections or all of the above. And then there is everybody else. I’m trying to talk about what getting going looks like for that group.</p>
<p>I fully expect once my daughter has more time to seek greener pastures, she will be one of the fortunate ones too. She doesn’t play the piano, but she is very smart, interviews well and has other gifts that will serve her well. My money is on her figuring it out. She is putting in the time now to try gain some basic training that will lead to better things so she can avoid struggling on $10-15/hour after she graduates. She is working along side graduates so obviously she isn’t doing what she is doing just because she is still a student. People do what they have to do. I am aware that moving into waitressing will be a big help and that is the hope and the plan for now. I helped pay for much of my undergraduate expenses and all of my living expenses in graduate school, as a waitress. In fact I encouraged her to try her best for restaurant work vs. retail because of the potential upside. But yes, other things like emceeing Bar/Bat Mitzvahs (which she would be great at) etc. pay way better and are on her radar to possibly do in future. </p>
<p>We have other ideas too but most of them require more time and flexibility than she has a student and will have to wait until after graduation. For now, she is trying to make what she could work out, work. It was a lot to pull together in the middle of mid-terms, then finals etc. Post graduates have more time before they take the plunge but if they are smart, they’ll also come with something in the bank because the first couple of months (6?) while stuff gets sorted out will likely be lean. </p>
<p>Do it anyway.</p>
<p>It sounds like your D has pieced together a perfect summer in my view, because she is earning money and getting to work in theater. Both of those experiences will be ones she can build upon down the line. She is doin’ it.</p>
<p>I do apologize…I tried to give examples of things my D did to piece together in college summers (or during the school year) or shortly after graduating college. In other words, I was addressing the “getting going” early stages, not current life of someone who has been at it for several years. It didn’t come easy and things were lean. I gave an example of her BF who has babysat as that also can pay well. My point was that success didn’t come right away. It has built over time. It IS going to be different for someone who is five years out of a college program and someone who is still in one or about to graduate. Even my kid has said that these new grads need to give it a few years of trying because that is what it has taken for her to start getting cast more. </p>
<p>I also was responding to some posts by NightOwl (cost of living in NYC for a young actor) and a post by cptofthehouse and some others. </p>
<p>Here is an example of one of my D’s best friends, also a graduate of NYU/Tisch/CAP21. While she is being cast more now too and she is 8 years out of college), one survival job she has done a lot of is that she got her certification to teach yoga. So, again, all these kids have to expand their skill set and piece together survival jobs (my D included) and give it time to get more established in theater and to get cast in shows. It is unlikely to happen very soon after graduation for most of these kids, my kid included.</p>
<p>Getting certified to teach various things is actually a very good idea and I know people who have done that in NYC for yoga. It also can have an upfront cost. Thought about that for my daughter who is a long time competitive swimmer and has the resume to be hired to teach swimming in NYC for close to $19/hour and a chance for lots of hours. Oddly enough the job requirements also say they want you to be somebody who in addition to knowing how to swim, also knows something about art… go figure? But first there was the certification she needed and as far as I could figure, to get it she’d need a course that was $450 (or was it $650?). That could be a worth it investment for an “in the long run” type survival job but it’s mathematically kind of crazy for a summer gig. Plus it was my idea and not hers. For all I knew, she was fine trying to make it work in restaurants and retail. </p>
<p>The friend who teaches yoga, did have to pay for the training, yes. Her parents paid. That is not something I would do, but again, she has friends whose parents still support their kids in various ways. Her former apartment mate…her parents were always supporting her and she was thus in a very different situation than my kid. </p>
<p>About rents, if you’re willing to share an apartment (but not a bedroom) you can rent currently with friends and end up paying $600-$1000/month for a decent apartment in Manhattan. No doorman or elevator, but not a dump, either. D3 lives in the upper-upper West side (around 106th) in a 3-bedroom apartment with beautiful high ceilings, lots of light, and kitchen/dining room. It’s $2700, so about $900/bedroom. It’s a 5th floor walkup so you save on a gym membership. Great neighborhood, 4 blocks from the subway. D4 lives 40 blocks north in a 4-bedroom that costs $2500. Floorplan is not as nice (living room and kitchen are separated by a wall and there’s no dining area.) But it’s renovated, on safe street across from a church and a school, and only 2 flights of stairs. Very close to the subway. I think when parents talk about $1500 and $2000 in rent, they are thinking of one-bedrooms or studios, and perhaps of buildings with doormen, lobbies, elevators, and other amenities. The most important thing is being near the subway and (I think) not having a door that opens directly to the street. Living on a upper floor is probably also desirable for safety. That said, $700/month is still $8400 a year and that’s just rent. It’s much cheaper in, say, Cleveland.</p>
<p>Yeah, my daughter’s apartments in Brooklyn, including the one she just moved into, are fourth floor walk ups!</p>
<p>In certain parts of Brooklyn, that amount of money gets you are lot more room than what you might get in Manhattan. She lives a few blocks from the subway too. Her new apartment has a dishwasher! :)</p>
<p>This thread has really got me worried so I went on a bit of an online search and found that my D’s university posts information on current graduates and where they are working. Out of last year’s 22 graduates in theater, 20 are employed. Not all in the acting realm, but they all seem to have jobs. I went back to 2010 and found that this seems to be the trend. Feeling a little bit of relief that she will have some sort of job after graduation.</p>
<p>bisouu…while it is a parent’s job to worry ( 
)…and the chances of being cast in a show are not that great right after graduation, I feel pretty confident that your kid and others will find some sort of work. It often means piecing together a few jobs. My kid has always had more than one job at a time. Things are not that bleak. Yes, it is very hard to get cast and make it just with performing jobs. </p>
<p>But here’s the thing…no matter what sort of work your kids get soon after graduating…survival jobs and the like…they CAN find ways to perform, even if it is not how they initially make their living. My kid has done that since graduating…often performing for free. They need to get themselves out there on a stage or in a concert gig, and so on. You don’t have to wait for a casting director to cast you. There are ways to perform. </p>
<p>Also, I don’t know the deal with other BFA programs but at my D’s program (Tisch…and I imagine it is true with other ones too)…there is a LOT of networking just among their peers. Some of their peers go on to become directors, playwrights, producers, and performers. And they get their friends involved in their shows and concerts. My D has had friends who have asked her to perform in their projects and she has gotten countless friends work in her own projects. One of her original musicals, for example, is being workshopped next month and she has cast many of her friends in it (for pay). In the theatre production she was just in that ended yesterday, she had pull with the casting people to have them hire one of the musicians in her band for the show and in the next show she is cast in, she strongly encouraged the producers to hire both musicians from her band for the show and they have and so she has gotten her friends work. So, keep in mind that there is work to be had if college pals are doing projects they ask you to be in and vice versa. For four years, not for pay, my D was in a musical sketch comedy group that performed weekly in NYC and the entire cast was made up of her peers from Tisch. So, there are ways to make theater, be in concerts, etc. by getting your own gigs, being in friends’ gigs and so on. Even if that is not for money at first. One thing often leads to another. Also, if you love to perform, at least you are performing while doing the survival job thing. </p>
<p>As a lifelong New Yorker I can tell you that there are ways for kids to live in NY as long as they are not trying to live in the lifestyle in which we brought them up. I remember my first job in NY, after college, (I lived with my parents for about 6 weeks) I earned $125/week and my rent was $500. No money from my parents at all, but I did cash in those savings bonds that my grandparents gave me through those stamps. Dinners were either dates or at bars with happy hours so I could eat whatever it was that they were serving for the price of one drink. You did what you had to do.</p>
<p>Today, there is plenty of housing within Manhattan and in the boroughs (which was verboten when I was post-grad). There’s a huge apartment complex (two highrise buildings I believe) east of the FDR in the 30’s, they are desperate for renters. Some of my friends kids have moved into a two bedroom apartment with 4 or 5 kids in it and built a wall in the living room for another bedroom. They have a long walk to the subway but hey, the price is right. There are very few unsafe neighborhoods in NYC today, much different from when I was starting out, so Harlem even BedSty is on the upswing for good priced apartments. There are ways to do it on a shoestring, kids just need to be willing to do it. The less willing, the further from the city they’ll be.</p>
<p>As far as choosing ridiculously expensive colleges, remember when almost everyone went to state schools? If you can afford to have your child graduate loan free, great. But tens of thousands of dollars in debt upon graduation (for parents or kids) is a recipe for disaster regardless of the major, IMHO. </p>
<p>Late to the party here, but I offer another vote for encouraging your piano-playing kids to keep it up. My NYC son always picks up a little cash here and there as a rehearsal accompanist. It has been a lifesaver for him in NYC. He also taught himself the composition program Finale and has assisted an up-and-coming composer with organizing musical charts for performances and doing extractions for a bit of money. </p>
<p>My son’s survival jobs have run $10-15 an hour for any substantial number of hours. He has life guarded, worked as a waiter, done some theater teaching and crew type jobs. The more a job has paid an hour, the fewer guaranteed hours it has offered. It has been a rough go… But he has NO loans to repay, which I believe is the case for your DD, too, Soozie, as you have taken over your daughter’s loans, and as I wrote before, we have been supportive parents that have given him a safety net in that we live nearby, and have helped out. He also has siblings and many college and high school friends in the area as well as other family, so he’s always had that little extra security that can translate into $s. Also, though we are not in the league of providing him a condo or a regular income, we are not hurting either, and see him regularly. My son has friends who are in dire financial straits as they are struggling with their loans, and their parents are not at all in shape to help them out and some may be struggling with the loans they took out years ago to help out their kid through college. It’s not a pretty picture. I consider ourselves, and Soozie as to be fortunate in that we are not struggling financially ourselves and can afford the luxuries of trips to vist and some extras as well as a security net, not to mention making sure the kids are loan repayment free. But, yes, there are many out there who have much more. Connections play a big role in casting and in jobs,and the truth of the matter is that you may be competing against Meryl Streep’s and Ron Howard’s kids,not to mention many, many who are connected to influential but not so well known areas of the arts. Also, there are young people out there whose expenses are covered because they come from well to do families who are able and willing to fund these kids and at a great standard. </p>
<p>My son lives in Washington Hts, has also lived on the Upper West side, and never paid more than $600 a month plus utilities for a place. Always pretty nice places too. He’s paying less now as he’s sharing with a SO, but until this past year or so always had his own room. Always right on a subway line. He may qualify for Medicaid, but did not before ACA, He has insurance through some fund, and it’s pretty good from what I’ve seen. He was on our policy until recently as it didn’t cost anything to have him as a dependent, but he also had this coverage last year. We did not know until when we were looking for ACA plans and he brought this up. </p>
<p>Son also lucked out and got a couple of gigs/roles that paid well for their short runs, and he could live off of that for a while. But that’s a problem with this business–you can hit it just right, but many of these "hits’ are short lived and you are then back to the looking for a job thing again. And when you take a job that is just what you want, you may be giving up a pretty good survival job and not have the option to get it back when your spin at that wheel is over, so you are back hitting the streets for some venue. Son lost a great paying survival job as a waiter for the type of job he’s always seeking and can’t get it back after that stint ended. You spend a lot of time looking for opportunities, more time doing that than working at them, it seems, unless you hit it really big. </p>
<p>His classmate and apt mate recently got on a tour, so that room is being sublet at a slight premium. Both guys are doing pretty well in getting roles and opportunities, IMO, as they have managed to remain in the business and meet basic expenses themselves. </p>
<p>cptofthehouse, glad to hear things are going positively for your son in this field and some good opportunities have arisen for him. </p>
<p>You wrote:
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<p>I agree completely! Most of the jobs are short lived. Those in the field are basically always “job searching.” You might be in something really good for a bit but are wondering what will be happening a few months down the line.</p>
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<p>As it is a public forum, I don’t want to get into it here, but I’m not quite in the situation that you describe. Financial situations can change during the loan repayment period. </p>
<p>The reason I am so against taking out a lot of student loans, even when the parents are all for taking the chance at the time the kid is making a decision to go to a school like NYU that costs over a quarter million dollars these days when all is accounted for, is that so much can change between the time that teenager is making that commitment with parents right there behind him/her and in the very long time it can take to pay back that money. </p>
<p>The stories we are reading here deal with the kids and the loans they took out. It doesn’t get into what can happen to the parents who signed onto the loans or took on the kids loans. I’ve seen so much of this that little surproses me in this regard. Taking the word of an 18 year old that he’s going to be a engineering and betting a quarter million on it or as physical therapist so all that money will easily paid back. At least with kids going into theater, one has to know that pay back is likely to be very slow, and may never happen. Same with a number of other courses of study as well, but pounding the streets of Broadway is a stereotype that has been made into song.</p>
<p>Many of my friends took out PLUS in their names, or even worse loans to give their kids their dreams schools. Businesses failed, Marriages failed. Commitments to help pay back failed. My very close friend lost all three and is financially ruined with debt that she will unlikely ever be able to repay. A sweetheart of a woman who just is a joy to all, and her trust, generosity, optimism and faith has brought her to this point. Pragmatism just wasnt’ in there. I have no good feelings at all about begging her NOT< NOT, NOT to sign for those loans. Even showed her how I was NOT going that route when the numbers said we could. We went State U and for us, it saved us when some things got very rough in the job and business front, as our MT son’s degree basically cost us under $50K total (could have been less but he lost his scholarship). Which allows us some more flexibility in our other kids’ college choices, and in helping him out a bit, though he has not needed that much, to be truthful.</p>
<p>But I worry about the next 10 years. I expected these first 10 years out of college to be rough, but when they are in their 30s, it’s time to get the finances in order, I hope anyways, and it scares me when I see a number of these young people who are no where near that. The economy’s been rougher than I’ve ever, ever seen it, so it scares me for kids in fields other than theater too, don’t get me wrong. But I truly think it’s getting more and more difficult. </p>
<p>I want to add that one has to be intrepid to make it in NYC, and if it doesn’t look like your kid is learning the ropes on how to get the contacts to get the sublets and apartments at a bargain, and finding survival jobs, after a year or so of subsidization, this may not be the venue for him/her. It’s not about talent, in many cases, but about sowone who sees opportunities in all situations in life. People who are not good at doing that, and my most traditionally success kid is one who is not, are going to have tough go or not make it in NYC without someone else picking up the tab. A generality here, but one I have seen repeatedly. </p>
<p>The story that opened this thread showed how a student who had a lot of her college paid for, ran though the easy money and then was stuck to pay the rest on her own when she’d learned nothing in how to stretch those dollars which is what it takes. There is talent abound in Manhattan, oh my gosh, is there talent abound. One of the cutest, most talented young women I ever met, just couldn’t make her break, went to London, and is doing well there. It can be easier to do well elsewhere, is what I believe. My son has taken a few breaks going back up north or to the midwest and found gigs that could have led to possibilities for more steady work and money but he wants to stay in NY.</p>
<p>I’m afraid for him, so I am not the best one to be giving advice here. The entire situation he has makes me frightened as each year goes by. And in his case, he has had to audition a LOT which is an issue when one also heeds to work to make the rent. IT’s fine that some can just sail into a one time audition and get the roles, but that has NOT been the way it has worked here. Many auditions, not as many callbacks, but enough to dig into the second job earnings,and few landings that pay enough to ditch the survival jobs. Son had a great job directing/producing a school play, for several years, but had to give it up for a very nice role, opportunity, and now someone else is esconsed in that position, guarding it like a treasure. It’s not for everyone, working the hours of three jobs and not everyone can get them in the pertinant fields either. I truly consider my son fortunate in the support he has with friends, but it’s still not such great goings, that I consider them bragging rights. The truth of the matter is that he’s barely making it. </p>
<p>The big question becomes how long should they be doing this? The one young woman I mentioned above, her parents had to have “the talk” with her She was over 30 years old and was doing this for nearly 10 years and not doing a whole lot better than she was 7 years ago. Talent? Over the top? Looks. 10 on a 10 point scale for an ingenue, young girl look, cuter than cute. But getting older. She took a last ditch job in England and is doing well there, but was spinning wheels in NY. At what point is enough? Especially when there is parental financial help involved. Some of these young artist bleed the family dry financially is the reality. If they are “making it” as my son is , one still worries, when one is truly making it like Soozie’s DD and the family support is solid, that great, but at what point should the family say, the kid has to do it on his/her own? That I don’t know.</p>
<p>As long as my daughter is doing all she can to secure work in her field and I have the ability to help her out, I don’t have any qualms about giving her whatever assistance I can. </p>
<p>My kids don’t have the option of parents helping to fund their living expenses past their final degree (though I think they are quite fortunate to not have to pay toward their education for the most part, whereas some kids have that). So, they HAVE to find enough work to live on. While I don’t have the money to pay my kids’ living expenses as adults (it’s enough to just be paying off their educations), I wouldn’t be that into supporting them because I think there is some sort of work most people can find, even if not ideal work, or in their field. I certainly would not be those parents of the 30 year old funding my kid in NYC who is hoping to find success as an artist and not earning enough money to live on (there are survival jobs out there), even if I were rich. Just not my way. </p>
<p>One thing I really agree with is this:</p>
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<p>I have observed my own kid personally in five years of being in NYC past graduation. Things are not handed to her. She does NOT rely on being cast. She has had to use a lot of initiative to create opportunities, network, find various jobs at one time, juggle a few careers at once, work her butt off 7 days per week, etc. This is NOT for everyone. If you are waiting to be cast, it’s gonna be tough. If you want to perform, you find ways to do it. You may earn money in other ways in the meantime as you build up your network and so on. She is also a believer in creating work for yourself and collaborating with others to create it, rather than wait for it. If the only way you stay in the arts is to wait for someone to cast you, you might be waiting a long while. You have to get out and just do it. Subsidize that with survival jobs, etc. </p>