I’m not sure if I can link to blog posts, but people have looked into which undergraduate schools produce philosophy PhD students at top schools. Of the schools mentioned, only NYU seems to do an okay job at sending students to top programs, but to be fair it’s not by that much. Apparently it’s fairly common in philosophy to attend an MA program before going to a PhD program, and I would assume that those would be more forgiving towards attending less prestigious schools, but would be an extra expense.
Anyways, my advice would be to talk to the philosophy departments at the schools you mentioned. If you can, it might also be helpful to talk to philosophy faculty outside of the schools, to get a more unbiased view. Of course, there’s no guarantee that your daughter will end up wanting to get a philosophy PhD. But their advice will be more relevant than any stories people have about masters in theatre or whatever.
I don’t think it’s a question of attending less prestigious schools; it’s a question of putting the time and energy in to learn as much as you can, and to do the best preparation work you can. And of course being smart, and having something to say. Prestigious colleges have a lot of people like that. Less prestigious colleges actually have plenty of people like that, too, but they are less concentrated. Anyway, if you are that kind of person, and you make certain to get good faculty support and supervision, you can go a long way no matter what type of college you attend.
That extra $200,000 or so can buy some wonderful experiences if she attends Temple, and you save that money. Study abroad with travel, summer internship in NYC because she has the option of taking a low paying one. Semester away at another school…some colleges do this.
Presumably she applied to Temple for a reason. Revisit that. And really…with the savings, she could take the train to NYC once a month too!
When I was in HS in the early to mid-'90s, it was gaining more respectability*, but still regarded mostly as a school for mostly well off B- average students unless we’re talking Tisch or Stern. Back then, NYU CAS was easier to get into than SUNY Stonybrook or Binghamton if one looked at minimum GPA/SAT requirements of those campuses back then.
Granted, part of this might have been the fact NYU Stern and CAS admitted around 1/3 of my graduating class…and the CAS admits were mostly in the middle to bottom of my graduating class…including yours truly.
Admission into PhD programs is also very individualized and highly dependent on how well one demonstrates strong academic potential and promise as a future scholar among Profs at the undergrad school and Profs in other places who can write strong LORs for her when it comes to applying.
LORs and undergrad research experience/publications rank just as high and sometimes higher than undergrad GPA/GRE scores and name of school unless the department concerned is really dismal. And even then, it could be overcome with good advising, strategic networking with prominent scholars in one’s field outside of one’s school**, etc.
Just a step and half above the CUNYs before that system's resurgence and raising of academic/admission standards.
** A grad student friend well along in his program in Poli-sci at a top 10 program in an Ivy recounted how some Profs in his department are raving about a new admit some years back whose undergrad was a directional public university whose department rarely sent anyone to a Poli-sci PhD program…much less one in the top 10.
Wow…just got home from work and have a meeting tonight but I want to say thank you to all those who have responded - I am truly amazed by the careful consideration and thoughtfulness of all of the responses. So much wise guidance…I want to respond in more detail tomorrow but let me just say to you wonderful people, with all of your different perspectives…a grateful, heartfelt thanks…So much to think about but in the most productive and helpful way. Wishing each and everyone of you best of luck on your student journeys and gotta say, I feel so lucky to have the combined wisdom displayed here.
Definitely NO to NYU. NYU was my daughter’s top choice for undergrad too – she was offered a small merit award, but it didn’t come anywhere close to meeting our need.
My daughter is now in grad school at NYU – with a half-tuition scholarship – and she likes her program but is incredibly frustrated with NYU administrative bureaucracy on just about everything related to course enrollment, administration, and (in her case) financial aid. She called today to complain again. I can only imagine that it would be much worse for an undergrad.
It’s one thing to deal with those inconveniences at a public U – but it just isn’t worth it for full pay. I think that if your d. asks around she will find that my d’s experiences are common.
I like to boil down the financial implications of choices for a student, such as: If you attend the more expensive college, you will need to work full-time every summer. If you choose the college with the full scholarship, you can do unpaid internships, live in Manhattan for a summer, or study overseas. If you choose the more expensive college, I will not be able to help you with grad school costs. If you choose the cheaper college, I’ll have X thousand dollars saved for your grad school.
If you choose the more expensive college, you will have to share a tiny closet for your apartment. If you choose the more expensive college, I’ll be able to pay for a single room for you.
If you choose the cheaper college, I’ll be able to buy you a used car. If you choose the more expensive college, you won’t be able to afford to have any car.
If you choose the more expensive college, you will be paying student loans for the next 10 years. If you choose the cheaper college, you won’t have any loans.
“She got into the honors program at Temple and based on her high school stats, received merit aid totaling full tuition for all 4 years plus to 4K summer stipends. She is open to going there and loves the grittiness of Philadelphia - she really is an urban bohemian type. The thought is she could than use her 529 $ for grad schools.”
The 529 can also be used for books/materials/living expenses. That could give her some better options for housing and meal plans at Temple.
It is true that a PhD that isn’t fully funded is a “soft rejection”, but if she finds herself looking at any other kind of grad program (MA/MS/MAT/MBA/LAW/etc.) having money left in that 529 will be a very good thing.
To have to stretch yourself financially for a fullpay 300k undergrad Philosophy degree boggles the imagination.
Tenured academia jobs are becoming scarcer and scarcer as colleges increasingly opt for low-paid adjunct professors. In any case, for students intending to go on to grad school, it’s the last school you attend that counts.
Following up on @Cobrat’s post, NYU is big, and the administration is not the warm fuzzy type. I doubt the Temple administration is either and it is certainly big. BUT as a member of the Honors College, she has a built in smaller community and extra attention that may make dealing with the large university bureaucracy a little easier.
I have nothing to add to this conversation that hasn’t already been said, but I feel compelled to post this exclamatio:
NYU costs $71,000! Holy Toledo!
I just did a quick lookup of other colleges and didn’t find another that broke $70,000. When I think of NYUs horrible financial aid and all those students considering loans – not good.
I’m with the crowd. I am thinking Temple and a year/semester/summer at the Sorbonne! Since it is way to early to know if she will be interested in a Philosophy PhD those funds available for grad or professional school would be pretty handy. If indeed a MS at a more focused Philosophy program is typical entree to a funded PhD, that would be a real lifesaver to not incur debt.
I’ve been paying tuition at NYU for the last 7 years (2 D’s). While I’m not advocating for NYU or saying that should be your choice, it has not gone up to $71K unless you count books and spending money. And it certainly has not had an increase from $62K to $71K in one year. You are not comparing apples to apples or the lower number was not accurate.
If nearly $300k will require no debt and not impact your retirement, go to NYU, you can afford it and it is a better school. If you require debt or impact parents retirement, go to Temple. Pretty simple.
Visit both in April just to be certain. Meet with philosophy dept. professors (plural). But from my arm chair: honors program at Temple? Free tuition? Money left for grad school or summer experiences? In the city? Um yeah. Tough decision! =))
I’d say go to Temple. However, the 529 money shouldn’t be saved for grad school if she’s looking at philosophy. If she wants to be a prof, she needs to get experience in grad school; that means being a TA. TAs, at least when I was in grad school, and I have no reason to think it’s changed, get tuition and fees paid, and a small stipend. She’ll live in poverty, but so focused on studies that she won’t notice.
She could also contact NYU and say that while she always wanted to go there, Temple gave her a great deal. Can NYU come up with anything? It’s OK to play one school against another once you have an offer in hand.
My cousin works at Temple: he likes it.
I’m with the majority. A practically free UG degree with scads of money left to study abroad, go to grad school and to have any number of wonderful experiences over the summers? That’s what I would do.
I wish I understood the siren call of NYU. Of any college, it seems to be the one that most compels people to make the poorest financial decisions. One of ds2’s HS classmates went there and dropped out after one year – no degree and loads of debt. And I know others who have stayed and gotten their degrees but with so many loans I would never be able to sleep at night.