<p>Some food for thought for people considering Oberlin.
<a href="http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/education/edlife/07guidancecounselor-t.html?_r=1&ref=edlife%5B/url%5D">http://www.nytimes.com/2010/11/07/education/edlife/07guidancecounselor-t.html?_r=1&ref=edlife</a></p>
<p>Ha! And I seriously considered a minor in creative writing. </p>
<p>Unfortunately, didn’t have the time with the history major, 2 minors, and an abortive attempt at a third minor. </p>
<p>Also, Oates’ comment about creative writing courses being only for those who already know how to write does sound a bit pretentious and off-putting.</p>
<p>It seems to me that students should expect to be able to take the classes they hope to take when they select a college. If Oberlin has such a high number of kids wanting to take creative writing then why not try to accommodate them? I thought the idea of a liberal arts education was to experiment with all kinds of classes.</p>
<p>The situation at Oberlin is no different from that at other colleges and universities. Small classes in popular areas or taught by popular teachers are always going to attract more students than they can accommodate. Oberlin works very hard to meet students’ interests and needs in terms of course selection. But if 35 students want to take a particular class that can only accommodate 25, there’s just no way that they all “should expect to be able to take” it. There are lots of other good courses for the others.</p>
<p>I read that article and didn’t take it that Oberlin was being singled out as being any different from the rest of America’s colleges on this point. The writer needed actual, specific examples and interviews to support the contentions she was making…and she happened to use Oberlin. And Oberlin was in some good company, I should add.</p>
<p>Why was Oberlin called out? Well, maybe it’s because only Oberlin and the other eight colleges mentioned share this dynamic. But if that was so, the interest level would be so narrow that the article would have been killed before the first interview. More likely, the reporter’s neighbor has a child at Oberlin. So, from that, people are suggesting that this “closed out” problem is a particular concern for Obies and prospective Obies?</p>
<p>I’m not exaggerating the amazing leap that’s going on by those who think that prospective Obies need to be cautioned by this article and that current students should be alarmed by their plight. I once was interviewed for a segment on “Nightline” and then appeared for all of 20 seconds on “This Week” because the guy filling in for Ted Koppel on “Nightline” was desperate for a live source and his production assistant overheard at an “Au Bon Pain” on K Street in Washington that I was in the specialized field they needed a source for who could get over to make-up within two hours. Those two appearances then created a false impression that I had something unique to say and that I was an “expert” or in some way distinguished from my colleagues on the topic…when the truth was that I was totally fungible, filler material! (I sometimes think I could have built a career on such appearances because CNN called me a few weeks later to provide quotes for another story…all because someone there saw my ABC appearances for all of 2 minutes, 12 seconds. Why not? I see any number of people who did just that. Greta Van Susteren anyone?)</p>
<p>If singling out Oberlin was intentional on the part of the writer, Ms. Paul, I still don’t think it’s reasonable to assume that she believes that Oberlin is any more guilty than any other college. If she consciously called out Oberlin, she also consciously called out Harvard, Yale, Princeton, Penn, Vermont, NYU, Northwestern and Tufts…and it seems to me that the point is not that Oberlin has a distinctly awful track record as much as to drive home the point that this is a dynamic that occurs at America’s finest institutions of higher learning. (Well, and to be fair, the point is also that it occurs America’s priciest institutions of higher learning. But I am going to assume all the parents are already fully cognizant of the pricey-ness of their child’s favorite colleges.) The only reasonable Oberlin-specific takeaway from its inclusion in this article is that Pamela Paul has the impression that her readership will recognize Oberlin as a great school where they wouldn’t expect this sort of thing to occur. (“Dear readers, this can happen anywhere!”)</p>
<p>For me, the big overall takeaway from that article was not that this happens. Every tour and info session I’ve attended has the “closed out of classes” question come up at some point. What I realized was that students (or parents) need to ask the question that the article really didn’t nail…and that’s because the answer can’t be generalized across the collegiate landscape as broadly as the problem can.</p>
<p>The colleges distinguish themselves in terms of how they address and redress the close out problem that they all have to deal with. They all establish a pecking order for how to get into classes. And part of that pecking order sometimes includes a component for those who have been closed out in the past. Often, there’s even variation within each college, depending on the course level, frequency of offering, size, etc. No article can do justice to a survey of the answers that America’s colleges have for this dynamic because they’re so unique and specific. To get those answers, prospective students applying to colleges across the nation need to ask the question that this article steers them to ask.</p>
<p>It would be a mistake to read that article and think that it doesn’t apply with full force to Kenyon, Amherst, Grinnell, LSU, Pomona, etc…just as it would be a mistake to read that article and think that it applies specifically to Oberlin.</p>
<p>what I found particularly disturbing in this article was not that students were closed out of intro / 200 level courses on a first-come first-serve basis and that the student might have a chance another time, but that the more experienced students were allowed in, and not those who wanted to explore a discipline as a newer student. I can see the value of having portfolio / audition / professor approval for higher level classes, but to shut students out at a lower level because of a lack of talent or experience is unsettling.</p>
<p>The ironic thing is that as I read this, I thought, well this happens only at universities, and then it talked about Oberlin. Perhaps this does happen at other schools as well, but I guess it behooves prospective students to ask about course registration policies. It is just disturbing to me to think that students go to LACs with the idea that they can explore a wide range of study and then find this not really to be true.</p>
<p>I remember being unable to get into certain courses that I desired 25 years ago. I was at a different LAC. It was often because the timing did not work out. Or, I did not have the right background, by the time the course fit into my schdule- I learned, readily, that there was always another class to take that I learned from. I do agree to the frustration that this can cause a student, but I also think that learning to find other great classes is just as valuable. I remember, also, taking (and getting into) a “really great course” and hating it. Don’t you think that is what life is about? Learning in all sorts of situations. Ones you “think” would be good for you, and others you did not know about until you got into it?</p>
<p>“elite and elitist” - that’s the only part I have a problem with…I never ever felt that way when I was there (aside from the bread baker in Fairchild who wouldn’t entertain the idea of an apprentice)…does anyone expect it to be possible to take introductory instrument classes at a conservatory? I think the writing program is something akin to that. Back when I was there, the 100-level creative writing classes were writing workshops led by senior creative writing majors in a group setting of maybe 25 kids. Sounds like a good EXCO course or Winter Term project option too.</p>
<p>My son is in his third semester at Oberlin. Two of the 3 semesters he got all of his first choice classes. The other semester he didn’t get into a couple of the courses he wanted, but, he found great substitutes.</p>
<p>@SDonCC: The first two creative writing courses (110 and 120) are open first-come, first-served. It’s only at the second level (201, limited to 12 students per section) where students need to apply with a portfolio of writing samples. Part of the point of 110 and 120 is to help students who arrive without prior training to build a strong portfolio.</p>
<p>I agree with bfw611 and SDonCC. Students select LACs to explore a wide range of disciplines; they are not enrolling in a conservatory or a pre-professional track. I too can see the value of having a portfolio, an audition or a professor’s approval for higher level classes, but to shut students out at a lower level because of a lack of talent or experience is so unfair and unfortunately this is what is happening. Perhaps more classes need to be added at Oberlin in those areas where there is a high level of student interest? Where the article errs is that this does not only happen with electives at Oberlin; it also happens with classes which are needed to declare a major not only in creative writing but in other impacted or popular majors such as theater and visual arts. Students should be admitted to pre-major classes in the arts based on motivation and passion. How else are they going to learn something new? My sophomore daughter has hit so many roadblocks and she has basically had a fall of wasted filler classes this semester. She is trying to navigate alternate options for a major as the clock is ticking, but she is also thinking she may ultimately have to transfer if she cannot get spring classes that make sense due to the frustration (not to mention such a high cost).</p>
<p>This is one of the areas where a university has some advantages.
At D2s university, this Spring semester there are 14 sections offered of 200-level Creative Writing. She reports that the creative writing courses she took there were better than the ones she took at her prior LAC (not Oberlin, but considers this dept a stength there).</p>
<p>One can get shut out in a university too, but with more sections offered, and courses offered more frequently, you are likely to have more shots at taking a particular course that you are interested in.</p>
<p>For a student who has a passion for creative writing the “lots of good courses” Dave72 mentions are not a substitute for a creative writing workshop. Those other courses are, of course, valuable and certainly worth exploring. But a student who has selected Oberlin for its creative writing major needs to be able to get into the introductory creative writing workshops in order to have a chance to pursue the major. My daughter said that 35 students showed up for her intro creative writing workshop. The class then accepted 28 students (way too much for a creative writing workshop in my opinion).</p>
<p>Sorry, bfw611, but that information is not correct. All the creative writing workshops (which begin at the 200 level) are limited to 12 students. Your daughter’s class (110 or 120) is not a workshop, nor is it required for the major.</p>
<p>My earlier post was not addressed specifically to creative writing classes. Sorry if that was unclear.</p>
<p>I disagree with the premise that being closed out of courses means a student is foreclosed from exploring a wide range of study in a liberal arts institution. If a wide range of options is the goal, those options are still there. It’s true that they’re not all still there. They are all but one still there.</p>
<p>If a student – particularly a freshman or sophomore – needs a certain, specific course…and finds out that it’s closed…then it’s not the wide range of options that’s closed. Just one course. And if a student’s academic life is zeroed in so finely as to depend on that one course at that one point in time, then we’re not truly talking about a student who’s interested in that wide range. Especially as a freshman or sophomore.</p>
<p>If a closed-out course is that essential, then it seems to me more like we’re talking about people being denied an opportunity to pursue a narrowly focused journey. A student interested in exploring a wide range of opportunities isn’t going to feel stuck in the hallway, struggling to unlock one closed door. That student is looking at the many other open doors and struggling with the problem of choosing which of the numerous open doors to enter.</p>
<p>If there’s one thing a competitive admission process should teach students, it’s that not all opportunities in life are available and open to everyone…including all of the people who are fully qualified to exploit those opportunities to the fullest advantage. Being accepted to a college doesn’t mean that this basic reality of life goes into a state of suspended animation for four (or so) years. I am not sure how there’s a surprise or “gotcha!” involved here, particularly at a liberal arts college that offers excellent opportunities via many paths. This isn’t even a “glass half empty/half full” scenario. It’s a “glass with one sip taken” scenario.</p>
<p>Ironically, I believe the students at LACs deal with this reality better than the parents. The parents are going to hear about the closed courses, the nasty menu choices at the dining hall, and the big storm that knocked out the power just before that 10-page essay was saved. Parents are less likely to get the follow-up later on about the amazing things that happened in the environmental studies class taken as a “fallback” to the creative writing class, the fact that everyone on the hall bagged the dining hall and ate Jerk Burgers at the Feve, or that the next week was totally sunny and that essay was completed on a laptop while sitting outside the library as albino squirrels frolicked nearby. If a parent’s not getting the sunshine news, it’s only natural for them to see only clouds.</p>
<p>I still think the 200 level is not the point where students should be shut out of options because they weren’t deemed “good enough,” no matter the discipline. This is the level where students should still be able to explore, delve a little more deeply than the introductory 100 level and see if this is something they want to pursue more seriously at an advanced level. Then, at the 300 level, if classes need to be closed off for more serious workshopping or discussion by students who meet certain criteria, then that sounds reasonable to me. </p>
<p>This may be an issue at any school that is “known” for being strong in an area or attracts a certain type of kid (eg., “artsy”) – you will be competing against many others with similar interests for limited resources and spots. I believe that Oberlin offers just two intro creative writing courses: one is fiction, and one is poetry. Why don’t they expand the offerings then to give more students a chance to build on what they’ve learned if they’re not quite “good enough” to become serious fiction writers but find that just a taste is not enough? Is this typical of other disciplines where you can’t really go beyond the 100 level??</p>
<p>D’yer maker, I think you are really trivializing this situation. Yes, kids are adaptable and should be open to exploring new things at an LAC. But, that is a separate issue from being blocked from taking things that ARE of interest. It doesnt’ mean that the student isn’t willing to try new things! </p>
<p>I also think that not offering a chance to explore beyond the 100 level is contrary to the spirit and concept of an LAC. It sounds like a university. I recall a number of university information sessions where they said that they operate like a liberal arts college in that students don’t have to major in the discipline to take courses in it! (or can take classes in different colleges at the university even if they’re not enrolled.)</p>
<p>You could very well be correct that I’m trivializing it. One or two years from now, sitting in your place, I may see the light and wish I could take back these words. I recognize that that’s a distinct possibility.</p>
<p>I think the problem is that there are these courses out there and they make it to the course catalogue and someone gets their hopes up…only to have them be told to find another course. Then there are all the courses that aren’t even in the catalogue. Perhaps due to the professor being on sabbatical. Perhaps due to a lack of resources or funding. Nobody notices those. There’s no sense that a door has been shut when it’s just a wall.</p>
<p>Nobody’s complaining about the inability to use the wind tunnel that doesn’t exist and nobody else gets to use. The outrage here seems to be fueled by (a) the knowledge that something was at some point offered; (b) there’s a possibility of taking that particular path; and (c) the knowledge that some people – other people – are able to pursue that particular path.</p>
<p>Ideally, this would never happen. But it does. And while I may be trivializing it, I think others are overstating it. As I understand it, this happens only now and then and not across-the-board and across all disciplines. It’s classic YMMV. The fact that in some areas there are student limits and other barriers-to-entry doesn’t mean that that’s true for all academic disciplines. It’s certainly not true to the point where the instances in which this problem does exist are so numerous that – as claimed here – students are foreclosed from the wide variety of options that a liberal arts college offers. Maybe I should have more empathy for those who get shut out of a particular academic track they hope to explore…but let’s acknowledge the fact that myriad tracks remain fully available to that student. They may be denied a class; but they’re not denied access to a full liberal arts education.</p>
<p>Again, this is the “glass with one sip removed/glass full” scenario. I’m probably trivializing the fact that a couple of lower-level courses get closed because I still see the glass as being full. My disconnect is when others see a sip or two taken from that glass and characterize it as “half empty” (if that).</p>
<p>“It sounds like a university.”
?? not the one I attended…</p>
<p>"I recall a number of university information sessions where they said that they operate like a liberal arts college in that students don’t have to major in the discipline to take courses in it! (or can take classes in different colleges at the university even if they’re not enrolled.) "</p>
<p>yes, THIS sounds like a university, to me. Not that first thing you wrote. Actually my university offered MULTIPLE LEVELS of many courses, and MORE SECTIONS, therefore providing MORE opportunities for the dilettante student to explore a particular field, not fewer opportunities. For example D2 was choosing an intro statistics course last year, she chose it from at least five intro stats courses she could take, all with somewhat different emphases and levels.</p>
<p>“I think the problem is that there are these courses out there and they make it to the course catalogue and someone gets their hopes up…only to have them be told to find another course. Then there are all the courses that aren’t even in the catalogue. Perhaps due to the professor being on sabbatical. Perhaps due to a lack of resources or funding. Nobody notices those. There’s no sense that a door has been shut when it’s just a wall.”</p>
<p>And…
-All the courses given only every other year, if that frequently (this is the way LACs extend their offerings with their limited staff).
-The courses still in the catalog, but not given. since the one prof with that interest left.
-The courses that are given, but only in one section in one semester, better hope it doesn’t conflict with another course you really want or really need, if that one is also given at that same one time.</p>
<p>This is generic LAC stuff, not Oberlin-specific.</p>