***Official Thread for 2016 BSMD applicants***

@Roentgen really good post. We as a family were also wondering if this 7 year route is the best way. It would so good if we can get more folks like you who help out these young students making such big decision of their life. I am hoping some of the current seniors read all these posts in time.

For us, since we already have good 7 year option in hand, it is hard to take the tough decision of going to local state school with full ride.

I heard about a student who luckily did not get into any 7 year program 4 years back so ended up going to Rutgers with full ride and is now at a very high ranked med school.

We had some good discussions on this thread, and there are obvious advantages to 7 year. I personally am mighty confused on which route is best so we are putting the burden of decision on my son! At 18 year old,it is super difficult for them too.

One question for you, one of the biggest advantage I see is saving of one year and almost 2 years because many students end up taking a break because admission process is tough. They could use these 2 years for additional training in their medical career ? E.g. had you gone traditional route, your real family like with wife and kids might be delayed by 2-3 years which does not sound much but could make a difference?

thanks again for all your thoughts on this. It helps to hear from someone who has gone thru the process.

Are most of your fellow classmates have similar opinion?

@texaspg, sorry, I should have said at least 2 years younger. We had a few traditionals who went straight in. A few who had done something else for a year or two and then went to med school, as well as those who had alternative careers, then went back did a postbacc program and then entered. The average entering age even back then was 24 for med school. It really varies a lot by school depending on the type of student body they want to achieve. Schools like UPenn, have a sizable number that are non-traditionals. Other schools, more like Wash U, tend to much more like recruiting traditionals as do other schools. So I think when you average all schools across the nation, it ends up being 24.

@Sam999, I think the Miami HPME option is a little different just because of the undergrad and med school caliber, and your son has the option to make the undergraduate portion to the full 4 years if he wants to, probably in the college major that he wants. He also has the option to take 1 year off during medical school to do research if he needs to for residency match purposes. It’s difficult to put all the burden on your son, as I’m sure he wants to be told what the “right” answer is, when there really isn’t one, as you mentioned with your Rutgers example. I’m sure in the CC student world, it would be heresy to turn down any Bachelor/MD acceptance. But depending on program, you can end up compromising a lot on things you later see were important (I don’t think Miami HPME fits in this particular category by the way). It’s also hard to predict homesickness pangs sometimes, as a lot of high school kids think it won’t happen to them and then it does (and that is ok). Not trying to scare you, but just saying it sometimes happens, but it varies a lot by kids and their experiences.

I think too many kids (esp. these days) see the Bachelor/MD route, as THE ROUTE to get into med school, when in actuality, it’s always been considered an alternative route. I don’t think the total number of Bachelor/MD matriculants at all med schools has been >1%, it’s maybe at 2% now, and that’s a definite maybe. The AAMC doesn’t even endorse it as the way for med schools to do it. In all media articles I’ve read, they’ve always had a non-descript explanation from a representative saying each school can recruit the way it wants to for their school, blah blah (which is true, but clearly not an endorsement). Several schools I know have totally gotten rid of the combined programs since they’re now getting great applicants thru the regular process - Mizzou Conley Scholars, Michigan, USC, OSU, etc.

I’ll tell you when it came to those who started internship with me, nearly all of them were already married, and had been for a while, some of them with kids, so going the traditional application process did not stop or halt that process from happening. I was the only one who was not married when starting. Wife and kids sort of happen and evolve on their own. I realize Type A Bachelor/MD kids tend to like to schedule things like that to check off: 1. Get into BA/MD program, 2. Get good GPA, 3. Get married and have 2.5 children (http://www.gallup.com/poll/27973/americans-25-children-ideal-family-size.aspx), but in reality, that’s not how it really works, ha ha. lol.

@Roentgen thanks for all the input. He loves Miami and i dont see any problem about home sickness, it might be other way round, he might not want to come home at all :slight_smile:

@Sam999, you’ll be amazed by how much more delicious mom’s home cooked meals become and are eaten without complaints when you’ve had to eat food from college dorm meal plans. That almost always works to entice them to come home. :)) (Yes, I realize food can be 1-day mailed, but it’s not exactly the same).

Did any one know the status of Rice/Baylor notifications? No one has posted so far though it should have come last week. Wanted to update the list and post the final list.

@ GoldenRock, they were out last Thursday I guess, one of my friend got waitlisted.

@jt4321 - I remember a few years ago one person getting off the waitlist with just a few hours to spare to commit to Rice.

@Roentgen,
Let me first say that I love your handle “Roentgen”. And then add that I LOVE reading your posts. I casually browse through most of the posts in this thread, but really take the time to read yours, as I learn a lot from them. Although I agree with you 100%, there are some factual errors in your argument, and I feel obligated to correct them:

  1. The number of seats in BS/MD programs is close to 5%, which is much higher than the 1 to 2% you say. I counted over 1,000 seats in all the BS/MD programs in the US. There are 140 medical schools with an average of 150 students (some like UT Southwestern have 250) 140 x 150 = 21000
  2. Although some programs like the ones you mentioned discontinued, there are several new ones that were added, at least to the amount to make up for the lost ones.
  3. When you talk about others in your Residency program, you are talking about the 2 out of 10 who set out to become Doctors at the end of their high school. There are at least 8 people who dropped out. You should consider the original 10 for any reasonable Statistical Analysis.

As I said, I am not disputing anything you say (People should jump into things with careful consideration). Also, I have always noticed that people say that they are happy with what they’ve chosen to do (you are definitely the ONLY exception I know). My cousin who chose to buy a house in a school district that is not up to snuff, sings songs about his school district. And promptly changed his tune when he sold that house and moved to another one. I have seen quite a few posts where the parents posted “Son/Daughter didn’t get in the program of choice and had to settle for xyz, but is extremely happy now.”

@GotamaTheBuddha

My cousin who chose to buy a house in a school district that is not up to snuff, sings songs about his school district. And promptly changed his tune when he sold that house and moved to another one. I have seen quite a few posts where the parents posted “Son/Daughter didn’t get in the program of choice and had to settle for xyz, but is extremely happy now.”

What exactly are you trying to say with this? I’m just curious.

@GotamaTheBuddha,

That 1-2% figure was back when I was applying (which wasn’t too long ago, in medical education terms) which I had found in the actual hardcopy version of the Medical School Admissions Requirements (the MSAR) book - back when all med school information could be found in one place, although the list of the BS/MD programs in their chapter aptly titled, “Information on Combined Undergraduate/M.D. Programs” was ridiculously out of date. They had stats specifically for each program with # of applicants, # interviewed, # offered acceptance, and # who matriculated, all specifically for the Bachelor/MD cohort. I believe around either 2012 or 2013 they moved a lot of information in that book to the AAMC website in which you have to pay for subscription access, unfortunately. I haven’t done the math (I’m interested, but honestly, not that interested to sit down and do the calculations for every BS/MD program). I’m only counting those that fit the definition of a BS/MD program which are always directly entered into after high school.

Back when I graduated there were only 126 med schools. From 1986 to 2005 - no new allopathic medical schools were created. All the new med schools that have been created have only been within the last 10 years, with the first new school receiving preliminary accreditation in 2008: https://members.aamc.org/eweb/upload/A%20Snapshot%20of%20the%20New%20and%20Developing%20Medical%20Schools%20in%20the%20US%20and%20Canada.pdf. We’re now at 142 med schools for 2015-2016. Overall class sizes now tend to be higher on average, which doesn’t necessarily mean the BS/MD track size increases.

In 2015, 18,025 U.S. senior med students entered the residency match. So already your figure of # of med students of 21,000 is off by about 15%, which isn’t explained for by attrition which is lower compared to other professional schools. This is all assuming by the way, that 100% of those initial Bachelor/MD seats end up actually reaching the MS-1 matriculation stage and actually becoming med students (and we know for a fact that does not happen, for a whole variety of reasons), since those attritioned BS/MD seats can’t be made up with undergraduate transfers (since BS/MD programs usually don’t allow transfers into the BS/MD program). Very few schools recruit a full medical class or even half a medical school class of Bachelor/MD students – the only ones in which there is a large sizable number that I know of are UMKC (since the entire school was meant to revolve around a 6 year model), NEOMED, and Brown’s PLME. Even with the example you mention of UT-Southwestern, with a class of 240, have a very small cohort of Bachelor/MD students as part of UT-PACT, which only started in the Fall 2012. And like you said, there are BS/MD programs that disappear completely – i.e. U Michigan, USC, OSU, UCSD, etc. although the ones that are newly made don’t necessarily replace the ones that became defunct in terms of total numbers, in fact, they start out quite small.

My reference to my internship class, wasn’t to do a statistical analysis in terms of percentages. My point in bringing up my own personal example was more for anecdotal purposes to compare to the high school BS/MD mindset. In my internship class even after asking them if they could go back and have done a combined program that assured the med school acceptance part from the beginning, would they have still done it? They all said no, with no pause. There were quite a few reasons why they wouldn’t do it, which I didn’t list in that post. It’s much different than the frequent high school BS/MD mindset, in which it seems to be med school or bust, no matter what the cost (and not just financial, since med schools don’t have to give you any extra financial aid to entice you to come, unlike what happens in the traditional pathway, i.e. Case PPSP) and no matter what the caliber of the med school. My point is that the calculation behind it is a lot more nuanced, which tends to get skipped over by BS/MD applicants.

@GotamaTheBuddha,

Several things:

I never said I was unhappy with what I’ve chosen to do. In fact, I have actually said the exact opposite – See my post where I actually say, “In the grand scheme of things, am I happy with my career? Yes
” in response to a question posed by @1CRYZX. The reason I gave caveats, is because it’s not like I can make a pie chart of my happiness, 30% is because of my career, 10% is because of my specialty, 40% is because of my wife, 20% is because of my kid, etc.: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aDqrW85RECE. Very few people define themselves completely from head to toe by only their career or job.

You ask anyone randomly if they are happy (whether in general, career, etc.), chances are you’re probably going to get a yes, as most people don’t like to say something to outsiders (non-family) that puts them in a very bad light or is seen as lacking tact. It’s taboo to do so. It’s very rare you’ll go up to a stranger or aquaintance (unlike maybe a very deep long-time friend in which you’ve discussed uncomfortable or taboo feelings) and ask them if they’re happy, that they’ll say straightforwardly, “No, my life completely sucks.” Most people in the real world, usually keep their personal problems privately and within the family to deal with (not a judgement on this, on my part). Your story of your cousin with respect to changing schools and comparing it to what he said, actually supports my point.

If you go by actual surveys done of physicians in terms of happiness (too many to list here) both in terms of their specialty and in terms whether they would do medicine again, you’ll see the HUGE variance there is, unless you believe they would take the time to fill out a survey just to lie on it. The much more real statistic is the figure that 9 out of 10 doctors, when surveyed as to whether they would tell their son/daughter to enter medicine (becoming a physician), said they would not. There are many articles and citation on this statistic both in mainstream media as well as the journal literature.

On a confidential board like this one (hence the name, College Confidential), you will get information that you normally would not get outloud publicly or find in college brochures/documentation, even for just regular undergrad programs. It’s why websites like College Confidential and Student Doctor Network (known as SDN) are very popular, the latter having med students, residents, and attendings who give their unvarnished opinion. I don’t gain anything whatsoever by keeping up false pretenses both to inquiring students and their parents, who are genuinely seeking genuine & sincere, unfiltered guidance as to how to approach the process of applying to BS/MD programs, comparing different programs side-by-side, as well as about the arena of clinical medicine in which they will eventually practice. I’m not a human recruitment brochure for medicine. That’s not my purpose at all. If someone wants that, those are easily accessible elsewhere.

@GotamaTheBuddha on top of the reasons @Roentgen outlined as to why individuals hide some of their genuine thoughts, I think the other layer that you may be alluding to is the powerful psychological mechanisms used by our minds to adapt to non-ideal circumstances. The cognitive dissonance theory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cognitive_dissonance#Examples), for example, is one framework that may explain some of the observations you’ve made. I think it’s fair to recognize that most students will probably be satisfied with their decision, even if it isn’t their ideal choice. But I would assert (hopefully non-controversially) that being happy with a decision, especially in the short term. does not necessarily equal making the best decision.

@dblazer

“But I would assert (hopefully non-controversially) that being happy with a decision, especially in the short term. does not necessarily equal making the best decision.”

There really never is a best decision. The best decision is what is right for yourself based on various factors it’s never so cut and dry as School A vs School B, school B is better so pick school B. It really depends on the person and fit.

All,

Pondering about the “what if” of past decisions is a fruitless endeavor. Instead focus your energy and experience to doing your best at each stage in your life and help others (from all walks of life) do their best as well and you will feel accomplished and happy for the contribution you have made to the world.

Best Regards!

Thank you all for this rich thread that has provided my son (who is a junior) with so much valuable information!

Last week we met with a admissions rep from Case Western who stressed how important “clinical experience” is for Case. He said that they don’t even consider applicants without this for the bs/md program.

My question is what constitutes clinical experience?

We have noticed that many of the more hands on opportunities at hospitals and clinics require a person to be over 18.

Is shadowing - clinical experience?
Is volunteering in any capacity at a hospital/ clinic - clinical experience?
OR does it have to be hands on?

@What???!! (I don’t think it allows me to tag you because of your punctuation characters, lol), so clinical experience in terms of med school apps is more just being in the clinical healthcare setting, That can be scribing for a physician, physician shadowing of different fields (i.e. in private practice or in a hospital), what used to be called being a candy-striper in a hospital (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hospital_volunteer), EMT work (although this usually requires a license), volunteering in a nursing home or hospice, doing a medical missions trip over the summer, etc.

It shows me as someone looking at your application, that you are comfortable with being in a healthcare environment in which you have patients who are sick and not at their best (vomit, blood, etc.) It tells me something that just looking at your academics doesn’t tell me. Getting an “A” in AP Biology doesn’t tell me with validity that being in healthcare as a clinician is for you, hence why these other things are asked for, because the natural question will be, “How do you know?” Hands on would of course be great, but I realize that’s not always possible for high school students.

@Roentgen - I heard “scribing” first time from you. This seems like performing medical assistant job. Is it accurate?

@srk2017, I think this best accurately describes it: http://www.studentdoctor.net/2014/07/5-paid-ways-to-get-clinical-experience/. It’s relatively new (compared to what has always been done traditionally) that has popped up and increased in need due to the EMR (Electronic Medical Record) mandate thru Obamacare.

Just wanted to let you know that I’m declining my BU offer so that will free up one more spot for someone :slight_smile: