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<p>I’ve seen it in two states and these are states that have good public education systems (relatively).</p>
<p>I think Donald meant something entirely different from what he actually wrote:</p>
<p>almost all CC students coming directly out of NYC Public Schools" are unmotivated…
consider for a moment that this might be true, and why…
While CC students all over the country are often there because they don’t have other options, this is not true of NYC students. The motivated students do have other options - and if they are in fact motivated, probably have made good use of those options. Some will have done whatever is necessary to get out of the crime-ridden schools during high school, others will have stayed, but found a way to overcome their surroundings and went to a local 4-year school (again, in NYC this may be no less affordable than the local CC). While there are some that didn’t make it in the 40year school and are now in the CC, they are not among the group coming directly out of the public schools.</p>
<p>The headline of the article is sensationalist and misleading, but it points to a very real problem… almost 80% of the NYC high school graduates enrolling in Community College are not adequately prepared for college work. If 50% of graduates go to CC’s, and we assume that those going elsewhere ARE prepared, that’s still 40% of graduates that are unprepared. Doesn’t sound quite as sensational, but it’s still a problem. </p>
<p>I think part of the problem is the way we tier education now. By having different levels of diplomas, and not insisting that those getting the lowest diploma are in fact prepared, we do them a disservice. Go ahead and have a “Distinguished” diploma, or allow some students to graduate “with honors.” But don’t water down the basic diploma until it means nothing. It goes right along with the self-esteem movement. Everybody who shows up for 4 years gets a diploma. The lowest grade that can be given is a 60 - which is a passing grade. If the lowest grades are always replaced by a 60, that means nobody fails…</p>
<p>romanigypsyeyes, that maybe true in other places but not in NYC. NYC offers very cheap education at 4-year city colleges through the CUNY system. CUNY ensures that education is available to almost everyone.</p>
<p>I saw the part where it said that community college costs the same as state university in NYC and that was a surprise to me. I usually expect CC to be the cheapest option and then everything else to cost more (sticker price).</p>
<p>First, CUNY and SUNY are two different systems. CUNY is NOT a state university. It’s a CITY system. CUNY is cheaper than SUNY–the state system. There are a few specialized SUNY schools in NYC, including the SUNY School of Optometry and FIT (the Fashion Institute of Technology). </p>
<p>Second, for full fee paying students, CCs ARE cheaper than CUNYs. A list of prices is here:</p>
<p>[Tuition</a> & Fees - Admissions - CUNY](<a href=“http://www.cuny.edu/admissions/tuition-fees.html]Tuition”>http://www.cuny.edu/admissions/tuition-fees.html)</p>
<p>However, as you can see, the difference isn’t that great and very few people choose a CC over a CUNY because of cost. (One reason is that not all of the classes the CCs require to get an AA degree count towards a degree at the 4 year colleges. Though the per course fee is lower, you’ll spend some of your money on CC courses that don’t get credit at CUNY. ) Moreover, my understanding is that the 4 year CUNYs are more generous with both need based aid and merit money. The Macaulay Honors Program, for example, is free.</p>
<p>In addition to SUNYs and CUNYs, there are LOTS of private colleges in NYC. The most gifted engineering and art students can attend Cooper Union for less money that a CC. Kids who qualify for need based aid or merit money might get better deals from some of the private colleges. I don’t know if it still does it, but Fordham, for example, used to give an automatic discount of $5,000 a year for tuition for kids who were grads of NYC schools who would live at home with parents. Other private schools in NYC include Wagner College, St. Francis College, St. Joseph’s College, Marymount Manhattan, NYU, Columbia (including the Columbia School of General Studies for adults), Barnard, St. John’s, the New School (including Eugene Lang, Parsons, and Mannes College of Music), Julliard (including the drama school), Pratt Institute, Pace, Long Island University, Manhattan College, Mount St. Vincent College, Stern, Touro. I’m sure I’ve let out a few. </p>
<p>In any event, one reason such a high percentage of NYC CC students need remedial classes is that students who don’t need them have a LOT of other options.</p>
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<p>That and the fact that after the late '90s, CUNY eliminated the last vestiges of the post-'69 open-admission policies which effectively enabled NYC high school graduates who needed remedial coursework to attend any school within the CUNY system…including the 4-year colleges. </p>
<p>This had the effect of concentrating remedial students into the 2-year colleges whereas before, they were much more spread out across the entire system. </p>
<p>While this was a factor in rehabilitating the perceived academic reputation of CUNY 4-year colleges in the past decade after a steep decline from the '70s-mid-'90’s when the entire system was regarded as declining “schools of last resort” by many NYC area families…especially many pre’69 CUNY alums and families with academically above-average students, many of the very education activists from the self-esteem school of thought have a serious issue with this state affairs. </p>
<p>Then again, considering some were the very same folks who implemented the very open-admission policies which played a critical part in turning the CUNY system from an academically elite public system to becoming an academically mediocre system in decline within a few years, many NYC area folks aware of this history like myself tend to view their proposals/solutions with some deep skepticism.</p>
<p>“I think part of the problem is the way we tier education now. By having different levels of diplomas, and not insisting that those getting the lowest diploma are in fact prepared, we do them a disservice.”</p>
<p>They are extremely well-prepared for the jobs of the 21st Century.</p>
<p>Meanwhile, how many of them, in growing up, didn’t have enough food?</p>
<p>The city is, just now, eliminating the tiered diploma. Everyone has to pass a number of state exams now to graduate.</p>
<p>Community college tuition is cheaper than 4-year college in the CUNY system:
$5,430 CUNY 4-year colleges
$3,900 CUNY community colleges</p>
<p>Lol I’m from NYC and I have not met anyone that can’t “read.” But I can say that majority of the people I know are TERRIBLE writers.</p>
<p>Maybe they just need a good editor?</p>
<p>Hey, that’s what I used to make the big bucks for. As long as they can text…</p>
<p>An earlier post mentioned that tuition at a CUNY CC is ~ 7k USD a year. That is a lot of money to spend to flunk out*, and leads to me to ask why these students have such a poor reality check.</p>
<p>*<a href=“http://owl.cuny.edu:7778/RTGS_0015_FT_FTFR_ASSOC_CC_TOT_UNIV.rpt.pdf[/url]”>http://owl.cuny.edu:7778/RTGS_0015_FT_FTFR_ASSOC_CC_TOT_UNIV.rpt.pdf</a></p>
<p>I repeat, tuition at CUNY community colleges is $3,900. Jonri posted the link:
[Tuition</a> & Fees - Admissions - CUNY](<a href=“http://www.cuny.edu/admissions/tuition-fees.html]Tuition”>http://www.cuny.edu/admissions/tuition-fees.html)</p>
<p>Where do you get 7k???</p>
<p>^^ $3,900 it is, thanks for the correction.
This NYT article
<a href=“CUNY Plans New Approach to Community College - The New York Times”>CUNY Plans New Approach to Community College - The New York Times;
<p>says that 60% of attendes have income below 30k (in NYC!), so $3,900 tuition is far from trivial and of course is only one part of total attendance costs.</p>
<p>My question stands. I would also point out that so called “CUNY CC literacy” is a very low bar of achievement for native English speakers. </p>
<p>As for immigrants, I question the entire idea of using the CC system to teach english. They are being exploited.</p>
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<p>For students who are US Citizens/Permanent residents in addition to being NYS residents, these students would be eligible for Pell, federa aid (max $5550) and TAP- NYS tuition assistance program (max- cost of tuition)</p>
<p>There seems to be a disconnect as suny states a large number of students pass the exam(s) over the summer (pages 9-11)</p>
<p><a href=“http://www.cuny.edu/about/administration/offices/ira/ir/data-book/current/accountability/PMPUniversityReport2011-12FINAL20120731.pdf[/url]”>http://www.cuny.edu/about/administration/offices/ira/ir/data-book/current/accountability/PMPUniversityReport2011-12FINAL20120731.pdf</a></p>
<p>To CUNY’s credit, they do offer free courses where students can prepare for the placement test .</p>
<p>In addition they offer CUNY Start, which provides intensive preparation in academic reading/writing, math, and “college success.” The program enrolls prospective CUNY students who have been accepted to college because they have a high school or GED diploma, but are not ready for college-level work based on their scores on the CUNY Assessment Tests. Sudents can do CUNY start over the summer for a flat rate cost of $75 (I think the course is free for students in College Discovery- a program for students who are academically and financially disadvantaged)
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<a href=“http://www.cuny.edu/academics/programs/notable/CATA/cti-cunystart/about.html[/url]”>http://www.cuny.edu/academics/programs/notable/CATA/cti-cunystart/about.html</a></p>
<p>They Offer CLIP for ESL students who may need to build their English language skills</p>
<p><a href=“CUNY Language Immersion Program (CLIP) – The City University of New York”>CUNY Language Immersion Program (CLIP) – The City University of New York;
<p>Adult literacy programs</p>
<p><a href=“CUNY Adult Literacy/HSE/ESL Program – The City University of New York”>CUNY Adult Literacy/HSE/ESL Program – The City University of New York;
<p>Thanks sybbie,
CUNY ‘start’ sounds like an excellent idea, and at the right price.</p>
<p>I’m happy to take back much of my criticism of CUNY then, and am only left wondering why so many students sign up for college (with loans!) they have such a low chance of completing.</p>
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<p>I don’t have an official answer, but here are my observations.</p>
<p>First, the CC stats are somewhat misleading because I don’t think they include transfer students. My impression is that a fair number of CC students are able to transfer to CUNY or other schools after one year. Some of these students are lousy at math. They are ready for college in every other way. They go to a CC and take remedial math. They can then go onto a 4 year college.</p>
<p>Second, some students are only there for the visa. If you are enrolled as a student, you can get a student visa, which lets you legally stay in the US and lets you work for a certain number of hours. I know some of the nannies in my neighborhood do this. </p>
<p>Third, some immigrant students who are legal immigrants want to improve their English. This is, I suspect, especially true for students who can speak English well, but can’t read and write it well. They aren’t aiming for a degree. The typical ESL classes aren’t geared to these students. They have figured out that CCs are a good way to learn how to read and write in English. </p>
<p>Fourth, there is a group of athletes. The CCs have basketball and other teams. One of the kids in the CC class I took last summer seemed to be going to school primarily to play a sport in the hope that she would be recruited by a college team. There are good athletes who can’t meet NCAA standards. CCs give them a shot at doing so. </p>
<p>Finally, as at all colleges, there’s a group of kids who really don’t want to be there but whose parents want them to “at least try” college. One of the young men in my class last summer wants to be an actor. His parents wanted him to go to college. Attending a CC was apparently the compromise.</p>
<p>EricLG, I am sure they think they will be the exception, just like many students who apply to Harvard or MIT.</p>
<p>And even if they don’t succeed, if they go to class they will increase their abilities to read, write and do arithmetic, plus whatever they learn beyond remedial work. And if they have Pell grants and/or NY TAP grants, they aren’t paying much beyond the opportunity cost for their time.</p>
<p>OOPS!!</p>
<p>The retention/grad stats DO include students who go on to CUNYs. They don’t include students who go on to private colleges.</p>