<p>How does this presume that a student thinking about retirement 45 years down the road would not be a good fit at Swarthmore? This logic makes no sense. I am sure there are many students on Swarthmore campus who are weighing cost/benefits of their future actions in their minds.</p>
<p>I think a student of the OP’s caliber will do well wherever he goes. As a presidential scholar, he will be cream of the crop at OSU, but his ranking will be an unknown at Swarthmore. Will he get into Swarthmore’s honors program when that time comes? Possibly, but not certain. Swarthmore is fantastic but not the only ticket to grad school. I went to Ohio State and made more money than most PhD salaries I’ve seen posted, not that money is everything, but I’ve been quite content. My former boss went to Ohio State and is ridiculously successful. A previous poster said that Swarthmore was important when looking for a job. I hired for over 20 years and never heard of Swarthmore until I joined CC. Yes, in academically elite circles it is well known. But maybe I am too practical, and I want financial payoffs for everything. If that meant I was not suitable for Swarthmore’s intellectual atmosphere and more suitable for a public school back when everyone with a high school diploma got in, then so be it.</p>
<p>And I think the OP is a heck of a guy for considering his parent’s retirement on a college forum where some smart students have a sense of entitlement no matter the cost. Smart with a sense of compassion is an awesome combination for future leaders.</p>
<p>I was stating an opinion. I don’t know of any Swarthmore students who, at age 18, were running the actuarial numbers for their retirement income. I’m sure that there are teenagers who do that and more power to 'em. That’s great. I’m just saying that doesn’t sound like Swarthmore students at that age to me. Most of them are thinking about other things. Maybe spending the summer in Africa. Mine was spending the summer in a dorm in Cambridge, teaching math classes in urban summer camps. I just think they tend to be thinking about horizons somewhere between high school graduation and getting the gold watch at retirement.</p>
<p>PS: If you like TAs better than tenured professors, Swarthmore will also be a very poor choice of college.</p>
<p>Wow, your elitism is showing again. I don’t recall saying I preferred TAs, but was pointing out that my two best instructors happened to be TA’s, not tenured professors. But you know, state school. I’m sure all the fantastic tenured professors were at Swarthmore or comparable, leaving OSU to wallow in it’s professorial ineptitude. Thank God I was able to pull up my bootstraps and succeed despite this academic squalor.</p>
<p>Didn’t realize that Swarthmore had the lock on African opportunities (considering some of D’s high school classmates spent summers in Africa) or teaching Math in urban summer camps, where you conveniently name drop Cambridge. Yoga will dramatically improve your back-patting abilities.</p>
<p>I didn’t realize that either. I don’t think Swarthmore has a lock on high school students who aren’t running the actuaarial tables for their retirement income either. The only point I’m making is that, a high school senior who is using retirement income as a primary deciding factor for college selection probably won’t be happy at Swarthmore. I’m not suggesting that is either good or bad. It just is.</p>
<p>My apologies on the TAs. I just assumed that, since your two best teachers were TAs that you thought TAs were a good thing. If you like TAs, you should scratch Swarthmore off your list, because there aren’t any. Even the science labs are run by PhD professors.</p>
My S’s a grad student at a top school. His classmates attended every top school you can name as undergrads. One of his classmates was the most-recruited prospective grad student in the country in that discipline (according to dept. faculty), and the school was damn glad to get him. Just an exceptional young man in every way. As an UG, that young man attended… OSU.</p>
<p>My S attended a LAC and I am a fan of LACs, especially Swarthmore. I don’t think any school does a better job of preparing its students to receive competitive graduate fellowship awards.</p>
<p>Tough choice. Good luck with your decision.</p>
<p>I don’t understand the flaming of interesteddad who is only providing the OP and everyone valuable insight, stats, and info on Swat. Which is what the OP asked for, no?</p>
<p>I never think the interesteddad is saying that Swat is a “better” choice. He’s always stressed that it’s an individual choice. He is DATA. Take it or leave it. Use it to make an educated decision. Use taxman’s input too. That’s why we’re here.</p>
<p>I was frankly surprised my D chose Swat. She was accepted at other incredible LACs and big (prestigious) state schools. I thought Swat was too “nerdy” for her, but she thought Swat was the best fit. </p>
<p>I have learned a lot from CC, and I think posters like interesteddad are incredibly valuable.</p>
<p>interesteddad is providing some good points, but he is being a little snarky…as are a couple of other posters.</p>
<p>It’s all about the OP’s perceived fit, people. There is no one “right” or “wrong” answer. One college will end up being the road not taken, that’s all.</p>
<p>Interesteddad, of course few students anywhere will run the acturarial tables for retirement planning and look at college from an economic viewpoint. My post really addressed the parent of the OP. I just believe, whether rightly or wrongly, that a major factor in selecting a college is finance. In fact, it may well be the biggest financial factor in a person’s life. As such, the economics of comparing colleges should seriously be considered.</p>
<p>I also strongly believe that Swarthmore and other ivy oriented schools do NOT provide better opportunies for study abroad, better computer or better facilities. They might, however, provide better teaching since that is the emphasis on LACs. However, saving 50K+ over a college career should be VERY appealing to more people than it seems to be.</p>
<p>In addition, although I am very fond of Swarthmore, having visited the school, they do have their drawbacks. They don’t provide the plethora of majors and course choices that a large state university provides. Moreover, they don’t have the large number of alumi connections found in a large state university. Finally, the undergrad school is irrelevant for admission to a grad or professional program. The main admission factors are usually grades, scores and, for grad school, research and faculty connections and reputations.
That is all I am saying.</p>
<p>Thinking about the TA vs. PhD prof issue…one reason some TA’s are better is they are absolutely thrilled to be teaching Chemistry 101, whereas the PhD guy is thinking to himself, “For this I spent 7 years in grad school?”</p>
<p>Briguy–What do your parents have to say about this? Unlike any of us, they know you and the schools enough to have an opinion as to which might be a better match. They also know their finances and how it may affect all your lives. IMO it is evident here that with hard work you can succeed at either one equally. </p>
<p>Only you know how you feel, truly feel, while on each campus with no one pressuring you. When all else is equal, (in different ways) you have no choice but to go with your gut. You will make the right choice. Make the decision, sign the papers, and don’t look back.</p>
<p>MM, the colleges that don’t have TA’s hire profs who love to <em>teach</em> as well as doing their own research. I was blown away in my D’s first year when the discussion section for her big (70-80 student) class was led by the department chair.</p>
Professors who choose to teach at LACs do so because they are interested in teaching undergrads. At LACs teaching is their primary mission and the schools top priority. Professors at research universities are usually recruited for their research potential, and are judged by their grants and publications. The teaching component is often a burden that stands in the way of what they really want and love to do.</p>
<p>This, of course, is a gross generalization, and there are some outstanding teachers at research Us, and some poor ones at LACs. Nevertheless, there is no doubt that there are more profs who would rather be doing other things then teaching at the research Us.</p>
<p>
Honors program is not competitive. There is a GPA cutoff, but I bet even that is flexible, like many other things at Swarthmore. </p>
<p>
I am pretty sure that vast majority of Swarthmore students do not see the amount of money made as a good measure of one’s success in life. So that, I guess, can be another way to evaluate if it will be a good “fit”.</p>
</i>
<p>I totally agree with that. It’s one of the things I constantly stress to customers who are shopping for colleges. Please, look at the cost of the product you are buying (per undergrad operating expenditures) versus the price you will have to pay (net tuition, room, and board after financial aid price cuts).</p>
<p>I think every college shopper should look at that equation for every college and university they are considering.</p>
<p>I can save everyone the legwork for one school. In the 2008-09 academic year, **Swarthmore College spent $80,718 per undergrad in operating expenses on the undergrad residential educational product they sell. **After financial aid price cuts, they charged the average student $$31,627. Obviously, each customer pays a different price, just like airline customers. For example, the original poster here has a price of $13,000 a year for the $80,718 product. </p>
<p>This is a crucial part of the calculation. Otherwise, shoppers could make the mistake of thinking that the products cost the same to produce and the only relevant number is the prices they are being asked to pay. That’s not true. College shoppers are asked to pay different prices for products that cost wildly different amounts to produce.</p>
<p>Once a customer understands the costs of the products they are comparing, then they can make a more informed decision about how it fits with their family finances.</p>
<p>For example, if we had lived in state like Virginia with excellent public options, I suspect we would have leaned heavily towards William and Mary for free versus Swarthmore at $50,000 a year, just as a matter of value as taxguy outlines. On the other hand, UMASS for free versus $13,000 for Swarthmore’s $80,718 product is different equation. I know which way we have viewed that, but I never advise some other family about financial decisions and I have haven’t in this case.</p>
<p>A person can go broke using your analysis interesteddad. </p>
<p>If money is not an object…that buying a car for $40,000 that costs $80,000 might be a better deal than getting a car for free that costs $20,000…</p>
<p>but…</p>
<p>if a person can’t afford the $40,000…he can get in big trouble…</p>
<p>or if a person takes the free car and invests the difference or uses the money for something else …that can be a better deal…</p>
<p>What you are suggesting reminds me of those ads on tv…</p>
<p>retail it costs $19.95 …we’ll sell it to you for $9.95…you save $10…great deal.</p>
<p>Well… no…maybe I didn’t need the product in the first place…and buying it cost me $9.95.</p>
<p>No. The first step is understanding the price and cost of goods sold for the college products you are comparing. The second step is then using that accurate pricing data to make a judgement about one’s one financial position.</p>
<p>For example, it doesn’t matter how good a deal a $250,000 Bentley may be, it doesn’t fit into our family’s financial situation. I’m not suggesting that anyone buy the more expensive product, I haven’t here. I am suggesting that people understand the products they are pricing.</p>
<p>It’s not at all wrong to decide to buy a Hundai instead of a Bentley, but it would be misguided to make that decision thinking that the Hundai and the Bentley are the same product. In other words, for the same money, you would obviously buy the Bentley.</p>
<p>Actually, in this specific case, the eqution is:</p>
<p>If money is not an object…that buying a car for $13,000 that costs $80,000 might be a better deal than getting a car for free that costs $20,000…</p>
<p>That’s probably a decision that would get your attention, which is why this thread is attracting so many strong opinions. That decision gets complex because you have to factor the real value that comes from enjoying the nicer car, the resale value down the road, and how much of a difference the $13,000 makes in your financial situation.</p>
<p>I posted earlier about my D choosing Williams over a full tuition plus about half of her room and board from UNC (a great public and where S goes). But, the price difference is really only 2K/year. Looking at both fit and finances, it is the right choice for her. But the numbers are very different than what the OP is discussing.</p>
<p>My hunch is that this is situation here. That the OP or the OP’s family is really asking whether Swarthmore is “as good” as OSU Honors, even if they both the same price. I don’t know how I can be more direct in how I’ve answered that. If that is the debate, then I think the customer should choose OSU.</p>
<p>To put it in the most simple terms: if don’t value the unique things that make Swarthmore Swarthmore, then you probably aren’t good fit for the place. In other words, if (for example), the ethnic diversity of the student body or the ultra-small interactive classes or the incredible study abroad opportunites aren’t things that you value, you probably won’t be that excited to be a student there.</p>