OSU Full Ride or Swarthmore? Parent's perspective would be greatly appreciated!

Parents Forum
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<p>Here are the lists:</p>

<p>[OSU</a> Office of International Affairs - By Country](<a href=“http://oia.osu.edu/programs/by-country.html]OSU”>http://oia.osu.edu/programs/by-country.html)</p>

<p>[Swarthmore</a> College Off-Campus Study Office - English speaking countries](<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/Admin/ofs/planning/englishspeakingworld.html]Swarthmore”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/Admin/ofs/planning/englishspeakingworld.html)
[Swarthmore</a> College Off-Campus Study Office - non-English speaking countries](<a href=“http://www.swarthmore.edu/Admin/ofs/planning/nonenglishspeaking.html]Swarthmore”>http://www.swarthmore.edu/Admin/ofs/planning/nonenglishspeaking.html)</p>

<p>Just at a quick glance. Ohio State’s list doesn’t include any of the IHP programs, any if the SIT programs, any of the CET programs. No ICCS Duke program in Rome, no Hamilton program Spain, no Associated Program in Kyoto, none of the top programs in France.</p>

<p>In fairness, Semester at Sea (aka “The Floating Mattress”) is on Ohio State’s approved list and would not be considered for credit at Swarthmore.</p>

<p>I’ve looked at study abroad lists in some detail and Swarthmore’s list of pre-approved programs includes all of the finest programs in the world. Williams also has a superb list if you would like to cross-check. Look at the price tags on some of them. The IHP programs are $52,000 a year. The applicant in question would pay $13,000 for that program. Swarthmore would pay the rest.</p>

<p>OSU claims that “nearly 20% of undergrads have a study abroad experience”. That includes summer and other short-term programs. About 40% of Swarthmore graduates have spent at least one full semester abroad.</p>

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<p>Most independent study options require a very high degree of self-study, thus “independent.” However, this is not simply a learn by tape program as you suggest. There is considerable interaction with professors who are quite demanding regarding the studen’s demonstrated progress and performance. So yes, indeedy-do, there is plenty of individual tutoring associated with this option. However, this is only one among a few options from which students can choose.</p>

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<p>Here are the winners of the 2010 NSF graduate research fellowship awards that were announced this week. These are awards for three years of graduate study at $30,000 a year stipend plus another $11,500 per year in tution funding.</p>

<p>I’ll list the field and the graduate program:</p>

<p>The Ohio State University (avg 7000 grads per year):</p>

<p>Engineering - Mechanical Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Chemistry - Analytical University of North Carolina at Chapel Hill
Engineering - Mechanical Stanford University
Engineering - Chemical University of California-Berkeley
Engineering - Mechanical University of Texas at Austin
Life Sciences - Ecology Florida International University
Life Sciences - Entomology The Ohio State University
Engineering - Environmental Missouri University of Science and Technology
Engineering - Aeronautical and Aerospace The Ohio State University
Life Sciences - Ecology San Diego State University Foundation
Physics and Astronomy - Astronomy University of Arizona
Social Sciences - Linguistics Northwestern University</p>

<p>Swarthmore College (avg 370 grads per year):</p>

<p>Life Sciences - Cell Biology Princeton University
Life Sciences - Environmental Sciences University of British Columbia
Life Sciences - Animal Behavior University of Virginia Main Campus
Social Sciences - Economics Massachusetts Institute of Technology
Life Sciences - Botany (including Plant Physiology) Cornell University
Social Sciences - Economics Harvard University
Life Sciences - Botany (including Plant Physiology) University of California-Berkeley
Psychology - Developmental University of Maryland College Park
Engineering - Electrical and Electronic University of Washington
Life Sciences - Microbiology Stanford University
Life Sciences - Ecology Stanford University
Physics and Astronomy - Theoretical Physics University of California-Berkeley
Life Sciences - Botany (including Plant Physiology) Oregon State University
Engineering - Systems Engineering Carnegie-Mellon University
Social Sciences - Archaeology Harvard University
Social Sciences - Linguistics University of Massachusetts Amherst
Life Sciences - Ecology University of Arizona
Social Sciences - Cultural Anthropology Harvard University</p>

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<p>This is what we call a pile-on where I come from.</p>

<p>OP- I think you have two fine choices in front of you. I hope you are not scared off by the implication from the above that only a rube would take the money and run. There are many circumstances and reasons why the Ohio offer would be compelling and the one you should take. There are many reasons why a rational person would go into debt for Swarthmore. Only you and your family can sort these through and determine the best course for you.</p>

<p>I want to reassure you- if you walked away from Swat overwhelmed by the academics but not sure about the social or EC scene, then you are not crazy and you are not alone. I know many kids who end up in fine institutions (including all of those in the cross-admit surveys who choose Princeton over Swat or Cornell over Swat or Hopkins over Swat or Harvard over Swat… so these aren’t kids too stupid to tie their shoes) who agree that Swat is a tremendous college but not for them. Either the size, or the setting, or the culture or… as in your case, the dough. It is a fine institution, it is not right for everyone, and folks either decide the culture will be a supportive and stimulating one for them, or stultifying and confining. </p>

<p>Good choices you have and I know you will do wonderful things with the opportunities in front of you.</p>

<p>PhD, NSF, all of these things are way down the road for you. In either case, going to a college where you are challenged and stimulated and have friends and are being provoked into thinking about things you’ve never thought before… that’s the decision in front of you.</p>

<p>And plenty of people get PhD’s who have never heard of Swarthmore.</p>

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<p>Also, to add balance (as ctyankee said I did not), Swat is not for everyone. Some people also drop out of Swat after a semester or a year because there was no fit in the first place, the academic intensity was too much etc. etc. I know a couple of people who did (who started college in 2004). I’ve posted my son’s experience in the Swarthmore forum but not here.</p>

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<p>Who said anything like that? I don’t think you can make any college decision independent of cost. $13,000 a year is real money. It’s going to matter more to some families than too others. Those are personal considerations. I don’t even think it’s appropriate to tell someone else how much they should value $13,000 a year.</p>

<p>I recommended that he probably should choose Ohio State. I think most everyone here has recommended Ohio State. I mean, he’s just back from Swarthmore and sounds like he isn’t sure it would be the right school for him. That being the case, I would say go to the other school, even if it were the same price. Seems like a reasonable choice. That’s what it’s all about.</p>

<p>Just don’t make that decision because you think Swarthmore isn’t good for getting into grad school.</p>

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<p>“Over 21% of all 3657 Swarthmore graduates in a recent 10 year period got a PhD compared to 2.7% of the 69,239 Ohio State graduates.”</p>

<p>You have to control for the average quality of the student body. Virtually every one of the 21% of the Swarthmore students would be likely to be in the top 2.7% of the Ohio State student body by the numbers.</p>

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<p>Of course. I think most educators would agree that a huge factor in the quality of undergrad education, maybe the biggest single factor, is the quality of the peers in your dorm, at the dinner table, in your seminar discussions, and so forth. Certainly, the quality of your peers, on average, is a huge contributor to the Swarthmore educational experience. Heck, the professors talk about how much they learn from their students.</p>

<p>That’s why state universities have added these honors college merit aid programs – to try to siphon off some of the top students from the elite private colleges. They know that having students like that is important.</p>

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<p>Let me approach your choice another way.</p>

<p>If you were to invest the $52,000 saved by going to OSU at 6% long term in the stock market for 35 years( which actually is a very conservative long term rate of return for the stock market) for 35 years, it would be worth $418,070. If you invest this money for 40 years, it would be worth at retirement an extra: $563,080. </p>

<p>$52,000 would take the average college grad at least 5 years or more to save up. In fact, many people never save up this much money in their life! Does Swarthmore give that much better an opportunity for grad school or for jobs to justify giving up an extra $563,000 at retirement? That is the question. Frankly, there are plenty of PHd,doctors, lawyers etc. who have graduated from OSU. </p>

<p>I constantly see the " go to the best named school at any cost" mentality all to much here on CC. </p>

<p>Moreover, a study done by Princeton professors have noted that a top student who attends the ivy league doesn’t do better economically ( long term) than a top student attending a state university. Moreover, OSU gives three things that Swarthmore doesn’t give:</p>

<ol>
<li>A LOT more course choices</li>
<li>A LOT more major choices</li>
<li>A LOT more alumni for connections.</li>
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<p>Does Swarthmore give a better academic preparation for grad school over that of OSU? Honestly, I would doubt it. I can tell you that I have a number of relatives who have turned down top schools in order to go to their state university, tuition free. NONE of them regret it!
Go to OSU and save the money. You will honestly thank me for many years to come if you follow my advice.</p>

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<p>I completely agree with taxguy. Anyone who is making their college decision based on the compounded value of tuition saving at retirement 40+ years later should absolutely, positively not choose Swarthmore College, not because there aren’t plenty of graduates who are more than comfortable financially at retirement, but because it just wouldn’t be the right school for an 18 year old who is already doing retirement planning.</p>

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<p>Interesteddad, It is NEVER a bad time to do financial planning. To not consider the time value of money is foolish. In fact, $52,000 saved for someone age 18 is a LOT more valuable than the same $52,000 saved at age 60.</p>

<p>Again, I am assuming that the eduational opportunites that can be acquired from attending OSU will be the same as graduating from Swarthmore. Frankly, for the reasons given in post 89, I think the OSU academic and connection opportunies are better in some ways! If you don’t agree, we can agree to disagree.</p>

<p>Also, for the record, the insurance industry always cites a study that only 4% of all people who reach age 65 can retire with the same standard of living that they had before retirement. 96% had to either continue working, substantially reduce their standard of living or live on some form of charity from relatives. Starting with a $52,000+ nest egg at age 18 can be a major factor in helping to reach that top 4%. Yes, it is hard to believe that we should worry about these things at such a young age as 18. However, the earlier the better. This is particularly true for woman! Why for woman in particular? Studies have shown that woman tend to live longer yet have reduced social security and pensions due to taking off from the workplace to raise kids.</p>

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<p>birguy–three years ago, my daughter was in the same position–between Ohio State Honors Colllege and a very well-known LAC–she choose OSU and has had an incredible experience. She loves Columbus, and has gone overseas several times-for a semester abroad as well as follow-ups to courses she has taken. She is in the Honors Collegium, where it is the actual job of the staff to help their students earn awards and scholarships such as the Rhodes, Fulbright, Eisenhower, etc. She has taken many foreign language courses and has mentioned that some of her friends at smaller LAC’s have been envious of the number and breadth of courses offered. She is a very pro-active person, and because of that she has had an incredible number of opportunities and experiences. She is allowed to take graduate courses, and many of her classes have had under 15 people in them. She knows her professors well, and is bubbling over with joy every time we speak. At the time, it was a hard decision, and people said that we should absolutely not pass-up the chance to attend this other school, but things turned out so well for her. I’m sure that you will be happy with whatever decision you make–the Presidential Scholarship is only given to those students that OSU really feel have a lot of potential–the cream of the crop–and you should be very proud of yourself!</p>

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<p>Interestdad, again, the pile on. Having stated once that the OP was clearly unable to see the beauty of Swat… and therefore, he should surely opt for Ohio, you are now making the snarky comment that anyone who is trying to make a thoughtful financial decision aka calculating the time value of money, clearly belongs at Ohio. Your tone is elitist at best.</p>

<p>Try answering the OP’s questions and refraining from the very clear implication that anyone who would ask a legitimate question, i.e. is the value of Swat “worth” the extra dough, clearly belongs at the cheaper, more pedestrian place.</p>

<p>This is a kid you’re talking to.</p>

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<p>I didn’t say 18 was a bad time to start planning for retirement. I just said that an 18 year old who is planning for retirement would probably be miserable at Swarthmore. It would be good, because they can make a lot of money, but it wouldn’t be a good fit just looking at the four years of college.</p>

<p>BTW, I don’t recall the original poster saying that his parents planned to just write him a $52,000 check to put in his IRA if he choses the lower cost college option. They may be planning on blowing it on a world cruise as soon as they pack him off to college. We don’t know. That’s why I don’t make assumptions about people’s financial situation.</p>

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<p>Interesteddad notes," We don’t know. That’s why I don’t make assumptions about people’s financial situation. "</p>

<p>Response: Yes, there was nothing said. However, I simply posed this as something to consider.</p>

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<p>That’s not what I said. I didn’t say anything about Ohio.</p>

<p>What I said was that an 18 year old who is making college decisions based on retirement planning for 45 years down the road would not be a good fit at Swarthmore, would almost certainly not be happy there, and should look at other options. It’s not snarky and it has nothing to do with Ohio State or any other options. It’s just a statement of fact about the culture of Swarthmore and the students who go there. I don’t want to see a kid go to Swarthmore if it’s not a good fit.</p>

<p>Now, I have no indication that retirement planning is at the top of the original poster’s list of priorities in choosing a college. In fact, I’m almost certain it’s not from PMs. But, taxguy laid out the premise and I’m agreeing with him.</p>

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<p>As a graduate student I’d like to chime in on the grad student thing.</p>

<p>Graduate programs do not really care about the name of your undergraduate school. We get this question all the time on the Grad School forum; read the relevant threads. I’m not the only one to have said this. Any grad school admissions book you read says the same thing. Even if they did care about the prestige of your program, it’s not going to be able the difference between Swarthmore and Ohio State. It’ll be about the difference between the well-known schools and the schools they’ve absolutely never heard of before. I’d probably have to remind my advisors what my alma mater was were they asked.</p>

<p>Honestly, the way that going to Swarthmore or OSU will have an impact on graduate admissions has more to do with the resources that are available for the kind of things that grad schools require. If you have access to great professors (not necessarily FAMOUS - just great) who are doing interesting, engaging research and have reputations that warrant giving their recommendation letters a second look, and access to the kinds of classes that will allow you to earn good grades and give you the foundational knowledge you need to get good entrance exam scores, then you’re golden. Both Swarthmore and OSU have that in droves. </p>

<p>Also, the percentages are misleading, so don’t look at them like that. OSU may only send 2.7% of their students to get a PhD, but perhaps only 5% of their attendees wanted to get one anyway. You have to remember that Ohio State is a huge public flagship that attracts most of the best, great, good, and some mediocre students in the state of Ohio. Swarthmore may send 21% but may 50% of their students wanted to get a PhD. Swarthmore attracts students who are more likely to WANT to get a PhD because of the (often incorrect) assumption that name recognition is important to PhD programs, and also because it also attracts on average wealthier students who are more familiar with the idea of what PhDs do and factors like that. You can’t compare the percentages without context.</p>

<p>Also, InterestedDad, as someone who got the NSF GRF this year…it’s no secret that NSF considers both undergraduate and graduate institution in their estimation of who deserves the award (although the graduate institution is far, far more important). However, again, these numbers don’t occur in a vacuum and you can’t compare them without context. Again, assuming the above numbers of 2.7% v. 21% are correct from year to year, that’s 189 graduates from OSU compared to 78 from Swarthmore. That said, the fact that more students from Swarthmore get the award has nothing to do with YOUR individual chances of getting the award. This year there were 7 people from my undergraduate institution who got one. Last year there was only one. Before that the last time someone from my alma mater got one was 2006. It has far more to do with your graduate institution and the tightness of your proposal and the rest of your essays than your undergrad institution.</p>

<p>Besides, given that only 10-20% of applicants get an NSF, and given that there are thousands of other funding mechanisms out there including institutional fellowships, it’s not wise to structure your undergraduate choice based upon that one funding source.</p>

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<p>Exactly. That’s the difference in peer groups. </p>

<p>At Ohio State, 89% of the US students will be from Ohio 11% from the other 49 states. They’ll be 82% white, 7% African American, 5% Asian American, 3% Hispanic, and 3% international. Some excellent students. Some good students. Some mediocre students. Median SAT scores will range from 1120 to 1340. About 49% will have been in the top 10% of their high school class. They’ll be about 40,000 undergrads. About 63% of all applicants will be accepted. About 70% of them will graduate within six years. 21% the classes will have 50 or more students. 23% will live in college housing. Full pay students from Ohio will be paying $9,000 a year. Full pay students from out of state will be paying $22,000 a year.</p>

<p>At Swarthmore, 13% of the US students will be from in-state. 87% from the other 49 states. They’ll be 56% white, 10% African American, 16% Asian American, 11% Hispanic, and 7% international. Almost all excellent students. Median SAT scores will range from 1340 to 1530. About 87% will have been in the top 10% of their high school class. They’ll be about 1500 undergrads. About 17% of all applicants will be accepted. About 92% of them will graduate within six years. 2% of the classes will have 50 or more students. 95% will live in college housing. Full pay students will be paying $52,000 a year.</p>

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<p>My intent is not to ‘flame’ anyone. I’ve seen your posts over a period of time and think you add to the conversation. You have every reason to be proud of your son and I would strongly suggest that your point about the tough competition for PH.D. admissions merely demonstrates my point of the other important factors besides what sooooo many people like to dwell on in this forum - that of a school’s reputation. I just think the O.P. and others surfing in would benefit from candid discussion of what you just brought up. </p>

<p>If I thought Swarthmore wasn’t a great choice I would have come down hard for the value proposition. In my view, Swarthmore is quite a viable option.</p>

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<p>Absolutely true. Two of the best instructors I had, one in Economics and one in Statistics, were TAs. And both showed interest in me as a student at a large public university, encouraging me to pursue grad studies in those subjects. I still regret that I did not listen to the statistics TA.</p>
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