Other combined degree pgms.

Pre-Med & Medical School Multiple Degree Programs
21

<p>my cousin is a vascular surgeon and has a chair at mt sinai hospital...he himself told me to stay away from DO schools and he would choose a foreign med school over a DO because, even tho they might be just as qualified as an MD, many people dont want a DO. Just because u dont look at whether your doc is a DO or MD, doesnt mean other people do. </p>

<p>And idk where you live, but i live very close to NYC, and in NYC being an MD is DEFINATLY more prestigious then a DO. DO's are hurtin over here because people dont trust that they are the same.</p>

<p>And in all honesty, they arent. DO's dont have the same residency programs and therefore cant practice in certain fields that MD's can. Its actually more limiting then you may realize. Think about it, if they are the same then why is one called a DO and one called an MD. And yes i know what they both r doctors of. But point is, they are different and receive different training.</p>

<p>Its a fact, ask anyone you know if they would rather have DR. such and such, MD or Dr. such and such, DO...see what they say. People may be ignorant and may just associate being a doctor with MD, but you cant change that vision.</p>

22

<p>Look, I agree that in general, having a US MD tends to be more prestigious than having a US DO.</p>

<p>But what you're saying is different. You're saying that having a Caribbean MD is better than having a US DO, and to that, I have to fundamentally disagree. </p>

<p>I would surmise that people who would go so far as to ask whether their doctor has an MD or a DO would also then probably ask where the doc went to get that MD, and if they hear something like Dominica or St Kitts or Grenada, you must agree that that probably won't go over too well.</p>

<p>
[quote]
DO's dont have the same residency programs and therefore cant practice in certain fields that MD's can.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Oh really? Are you sure about that?</p>

<p>"While the osteopathic community has a strong commitment to primary care, osteopathic physicians can be found in any of the subspecialties. From surgery and anesthesia to emergency and family practice, osteopathic physicians can be found practicing in all fields of medicine, and are fully-licensed physicians in all fifty of the United States."</p>

<p><a href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathy#Doctors_of_Osteopathic_Medicine_today%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Osteopathy#Doctors_of_Osteopathic_Medicine_today&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>I agree that the training is obviously different. DO's have to take classes on manipulative osteopathic techniques that MD's do not have to take. But to say that DO's can't practice in certain fields that MD's can - that is simply a false statement. American DO's can and do practice in every single field that MD's do. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Its a fact, ask anyone you know if they would rather have DR. such and such, MD or Dr. such and such, DO...see what they say. People may be ignorant and may just associate being a doctor with MD, but you cant change that vision.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>And conversely, if I was to ask somebody whether they would want to have a doctor trained in an American medical school or a Caribbean medical school, what would they say? I think we both know the answer to that one. </p>

<p>You're the one that talks about how limiting the DO path is. However, I think you fail to discount how limiting the Caribbean MD path is. The fact is, if you go to a Caribbean MD school, you run the risk of not getting a US residency. This is exacerbated by (or perhaps caused by) the fact that many Caribbean medical schools have only limited clinical rotations. Furthermore, not all Caribbean MD programs are accredited in all the US states. California, New Jersey, and New York have notably idiosyncratic requirements with regard to Caribbean MD accreditation. </p>

<p><a href="http://www.studentdoc.com/foreign-medical-schools.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.studentdoc.com/foreign-medical-schools.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://www.studentdoc.com/caribbean-medical-schools.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.studentdoc.com/caribbean-medical-schools.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Look, doogie311, I was with you when you said that a US DO program is probably not as good as a US MD program. However, it was when you then said that it would be better to go to a Caribbean MD program than a US DO program - that's where we part company. I can't go there, because that's a very strong claim.</p>

23

<p>who r u to say that Caribbean MD progams are not as good as some mainland US MD programs...its an MD. Its not like any school can just call itself an MD, there is a specific curriculum a school must follow. </p>

<p>You are giving me information from a website...im giving u factual information from life. Doctors sometimes do not hire DO's for their practice. However, MD's from any foreign med schools, if they can prove themselves to be good doctors then they will get hired. </p>

<p>And yea you are absolutely right, i may have worded myself incorrectly, but there are certain procedures that DO's just usually dont perform.</p>

<p>If you actually KNEW what a DO is, you would understand what i mean. But i will have no problem explaining it to you anyway.</p>

<p>A DO or doctor of osteopathic medicine deals with holistic patient care and preventative medicine, while yes, TECHNICALLY they can be found in any field, you rarely will find surgeon DO's because that just isnt what their education is based upon. Surgery isnt exactly preventative medicine. You will usually find DO's as primary care physicians or family doctors. Because of this, it is DIFFICULT for DO's to find jobs or residencies in other fields such as surgey...if u dont believe me, i can give u the e-mail of my cousin at mt sinai who hires new surgeons. He will tell you exactly what i said...that if a foreign medical school graduate can show he has what it takes, he would rather hire him then a DO, because SURGERY IS NOT THE FOCUS OF DO'S!</p>

<p>But yes, like i said before...technically you can go into any field as a DO, however good luck being successful wen there is only around 49000 in America and only 9/10 people have NEVER EVEN HEARD OF A DO! </p>

<p>Im pretty sure that small percentage of people who have heard of DO's are in some sort of health profession anyway ahaha.</p>

<p>You can say anything you want to try and justify why being a DO can be better then having a foreign MD. But fact is...no matter what doctor you go to, you arent gonna go to a doctor that people havent told you was good.</p>

<p>Its just common sense, you research your physician first, if your doctor is an MD from a caribbean med school but has an extremely happy clientel and a HIGH success rate for various procedures...i doubt it will cause too much of a problem. </p>

<p>DO's are rare and are not accepted especially on the east coast...say what you want but im giving you cold hard facts from the general public.</p>

24

<p>Let's face it. Why do Americans go to Caribbean med-schools? We both know that it's because they couldn't get into an American school. Do you dispute that? I don't think you do. Hence, how can you seriously try to claim that the Caribbean schools are as good as the American schools? If they were, then people would be turning down American schools to go to Caribbean schools. </p>

<p>I can agree that perhaps some organizations won't hire DO's. However, I would argue that some organizations won't hire Caribbean MD's either. And as demonstrated by the websites, Caribbean MD's sometimes have trouble getting residencies. Ask yourself - why is that? If the Caribbean MD programs really were just as good as American MD programs, then why are their students reporting having trouble getting residencies? </p>

<p>You don't have to tell me what osteopathy is. Believe me, I know. And yes, I am aware that it may be difficult to get into the premier specialties through an osteopathy school. But you missed the point. The point is, it is also difficult to get into the premier specialties through a Caribbean medical school. Come on, you know it's true. Caribbean MD's are at a disadvantage when it comes to getting residency. It's not a fatal disadvantage, because many of those students are obviously able to get residency, but let's not pretend that there's no disadvantage at all. </p>

<p>Since I presented my websites, it's time for you to present yours. Show me data that indicates that Caribbean MD's are at absolutely no disadvantage when trying to into the top specialties like surgery. I doubt that you can do it. However, if what you are saying is true, then you should have no problem in finding data that backs you up, right? So show me the data that indicates that a Caribbean MD program puts you at no disadvantage whatsoever. </p>

<p>
[quote]
But yes, like i said before...technically you can go into any field as a DO, however good luck being successful wen there is only around 49000 in America and only 9/10 people have NEVER EVEN HEARD OF A DO! </p>

<p>Im pretty sure that small percentage of people who have heard of DO's are in some sort of health profession anyway ahaha.

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</p>

<p>You're right - most Americans have never heard of DO's. But so what? When most Americans hear that somebody is a medical doctor, they don't bother to inquire about the difference between the MD and the DO, because, like you said, they don't even know that there is such a thing as a DO. So when somebody introduces himself as Dr. Smith, people just assume that he's a fully competent doctor. How many people would bother to ask whether he's a DO or an MD, when, you said it yourself, most people don't even know that the DO programs even exist? And of that small population that does know, I would also think they would know enough to ask whether he's an American MD or a Caribbean MD. AFter all, if you're really that curious about the medical profession to know about the DO program, I would have to imagine that you would also know about the existence of Caribbean schools, and the fact that the only Americans go there are those that couldn't get into an American school. </p>

<p>
[quote]
Its just common sense, you research your physician first, if your doctor is an MD from a caribbean med school but has an extremely happy clientel and a HIGH success rate for various procedures...i doubt it will cause too much of a problem.

[/quote]
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<p>And likewise, if your doctor is a DO, but also has an extremely happy clientele and a high success rate, I also doubt that it will cause too much of a problem. </p>

<p>
[quote]
DO's are rare and are not accepted especially on the east coast...say what you want but im giving you cold hard facts from the general public.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So let's ask an East Coast doctor about it. Ps<em>Sedrish</em>md is an EAst Coast doctor. How about we jointly send him an email or a PM and ask him what his opinion of DO's are, relative to Caribbean MD's? </p>

<p>Look. while I can agree that DO programs may not be highly respected, neither are Caribbean MD programs. That's a cold hard fact.</p>

25

<p>u say people go to caribbean med schools cause they cant get into american med schools...very true</p>

<p>people who go to DO schools usually dont get into any american med schools either </p>

<p>i have yet to hear of a person applying to just DO schools...people apply to them as backups just incase they get REJECTED to every med school they apply to.</p>

<p>and dont worry i dont need to e-mail that person...ive spoken to my cousin about it and he doesnt look highly on DO's. He chooses not to hire them at Mt Sinai in vasc. surgery.</p>

26

<p>Doogie, I won't deny that there are some who apply to DO schools as backups to allopathic american schools, or that DO schools aren't easier to get into, but there are still many people who apply to only osteopathic schools because they believe in the focus of the osteopathic schools (i'm not an expert about the focus - something about bones and physical healing, generally primary care). However, caribbean schools were created for people who couldn't get into USMD programs as a money making scheme. I dont think you can argue that a Caribbean MD is immediately more prestigious and better than a DO school - it varies from region to region, and from program director to program director. Though generally, its much more often the case that a DO student completes a prestigious Allopathic residency, than a USMD student does.</p>

27

<p>dude...caribbean med schools were not made for people who couldnt get into US med schools...</p>

<p>fact is u come out of a caribbean med school with an MD. MD's are more widely accepted and hired by US hospitals.</p>

<p>Im not saying EVERY foreign med school is better then a DO. Im just sayin if a doctor can prove himself to be up to par, he would be hired over a DO in many instances.</p>

<p>Also, im not even in favor of many caribbean med schools, or many other foreign med schools for that matter...ive heard horror stories about certain med schools across the globe. So dont get me wrong, it depends on which med school...but not all foreign med schools are bad. Many are better then american med schools</p>

28

<p>Oh no, i've let myself into a flame war...oh well, here goes. Must defend the DO's. </p>

<p>"dude...caribbean med schools were not made for people who couldnt get into US med schools..."</p>

<p>Uh, yes they were. Students at (most) schools do rotations at US clinical sites, and everyone who matches (if they do match), match at US residency spots. When we refer to carribbean schools, we refer generally to the big, well known ones such as Ross, St George, AUC. These were created to give people who couldnt get into US/Canadian med schools a chance at an MD. </p>

<p>"fact is u come out of a caribbean med school with an MD. MD's are more widely accepted and hired by US hospitals."</p>

<p>An MD IS more widely accepted. But US hospitals generally look at the whole picture; they don't examine the two letters of your degree and decide whether or not to offer you a job. They look at how you did in your residency, and where your residency was done, first of all. Sure, the general public may be more aware of the MD, but advising someone to go the Caribbean way over DO is absurd. </p>

<p>As Sakky said, I was with you when you said that a DO is probably not preferable to a USMD (if you're not into the osteopathic techniques), but I absolutely don't agree about how ANY MD degree (Caribbean) is vastly superior to a DO degree. There's a hot debate over this at SDN, though most of the premeds, med students, and residents agree that you will get way more opportunities as a DO. Check it out.</p>

29

<p>I am telling you that my cousin, from his own mouth, said he would hire an MD over a DO. Even if that MD was from a caribbean med school and could prove he was a capable doctor. </p>

<p>DO's are RARELY hired at NYC major hospitals. Dont believe me? Try being a DO and applying for a surgeon position at Columbia, NYU, or Mt Sinai...see what happens.</p>

<p>Keep trying to defend yourself, but go ahead take that road and see how far u get on the major cities in the East</p>

30

<p>well I actually spent the past week shadowing a couple of MDs at their private practice and I had the opportunity to ask them about this.</p>

<p>One of them actually went to the UMKC 6-year program and told me to stay away from DO just because there will always be a prejudice against them. </p>

<p>The other doctor got his MD from the Caribbean, but he had no trouble getting a residency position... in fact, he got a spot in California, which is typically a difficult place to find residency openings. Of course, he's definitely very talented, so I guess the moral is that if you're good and work hard... it doesn't really make a huge difference what school you went to.</p>

31

<p>Thank You!</p>

32

<p>Son of Liberty: I absolutely agree with you that it depends on the person and their talents, not whether they have an MD from a caribbean or a DO. </p>

<p>"One of them actually went to the UMKC 6-year program and told me to stay away from DO just because there will always be a prejudice against them."</p>

<p>There will always be predjudice around Caribbean MD's too. </p>

<p>It's pointless to argue using anecdotal evidence. I know a DO who's brilliant, worked hard in med school, got into a prestigious US Allo residency, and is now very rich and successful as a anesthesiologist. So there!
Nah, I'm just kidding. What I'm trying to say is, you can't base an argument on anecdotal evidence that you keep pulling up. As I suggested, go to SDN and read the countless threads debating this issue. You'll get a better idea of the mainstream opnions of health proffesionals. It's pointless to argue that a Caribbean MD is immediately better than any DO, and its even more pointless to argue with "well in NEW YORK, its ALWAYS this way, see I know these hot-shot doctors, and since their opinions dictate the opinions of the entire US population..."</p>

<p>To the OP: Yes, BA/DO schools are easier to get into. Nobody's saying their better than US MD programs (well if you are interested in their methods of practicing, it may be better). </p>

<p>~And I'm out of this debate for good.</p>

33

<p>Exactly right, gentlemen, you can't argue this with anecdotal data. </p>

<p>Doogie says he knows a person who would hire a Caribbean MD over a DO. Oh really? Every time? So if that Caribbean MD just sucked - bad evals, bad USMLE scores, bad everything, and the DO received top marks, he would still hire the Caribbean MD anyway over the DO anyway, just because he has the MD? I think he would have to admit that he would not. It has to be taken on a case by case basis. </p>

<p>It is obviously true that DO programs carry a stigma, because like we said, DO programs tend to be less selective than MD programs. Yet the fact is, let's be honest, Caribbean MD programs also carry a stigma. The question is, which has more of a stigma? Obviously there are some people who might choose to give more weighting to the Caribbean MD over the US DO. On the other hand, there are other people (of which I know an anecdotal few) who would give more weighting to the DO over the Caribbean MD. </p>

<p>That gets back to my original point. You can't CATEGORICALLY state that all Caribbean MD's are always better than all DO's. Some will be. Some won't. Things have to be judged on a case by case basis. You can't just categorically dismiss all DO's. Some are bad, but others are good. </p>

<p>The other point of contention is that it has been asserted that certain regular patients might not want to be treated by DO's. That might be true. In fact, I think I know a few such people. On the other hand, I also know other people who don't want to be treated by a Caribbean MD either. I would say that most patients don't care - all they care about is whether the guy is a competent doctor, not where he studied. For those few that do care, some might prefer the Caribbean MD over the DO, but others might prefer the DO over the Caribbean MD. Hence, once again, you can't categorically dismiss the DO as automatically being inferior in terms of perception to the Caribbean MD.</p>

34

<p>i never said all...read my posts correctly</p>

35

<p>I have read your posts completely correctly, and while you may not have actually used the word 'all', you basically said it.</p>

<p>Here are your quotes:

[quote]
my cousin is a vascular surgeon and has a chair at mt sinai hospital...he himself told me to stay away from DO schools and he would choose a foreign med school over a DO because, even tho they might be just as qualified as an MD, many people dont want a DO. Just because u dont look at whether your doc is a DO or MD, doesnt mean other people do. </p>

<p>And idk where you live, but i live very close to NYC, and in NYC being an MD is DEFINATLY more prestigious then a DO. DO's are hurtin over here because people dont trust that they are the same.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>So basically, you're saying that all Caribbean MD's are better than all DO's. After all, what else could you have meant when you said that your cousin told you to stay away from DO programs and instead go to a Caribbean MD school. Neither he nor you qualified that statement in any way, he just said Caribbean MD programs are better than DO programs. That's what your quote says. </p>

<p>Yet I think even you would have to concede that your cousin would not hire a Caribbean MD who sucked over a DO with a stellar record, just because the former guy happened to have an MD (even though the MD was earned from the Caribbean). Furthermore, whatever the opinions of the people you may have met in New York, you would have to agree that you will attract a better clientele as a highly reputable DO than a Caribbean MD with a terrible reputation. </p>

<p>Which gets back to my point - that you have to take things on a case-by-case basis. You cannot simply categorically dismiss all DO's. You cannot always assume that a Caribbean MD option is always better than going down the DO route. Let's face it. At least in the DO option, at any DO school in the country, you will be getting a credential that is recognized throughout the country and that does, according to the law, allow you to practice medicine in the US. You cannot say that about all Caribbean MD programs.</p>

36

<p>and you cant categorically dismiss all foreign MDs</p>

<p>And i never said anything like that! You are putting words in my mouth and distorting what i said.</p>

37

<p>A distortion of what you said? I reproduced your quotes exactly as you wrote them. Again, here's your quote: "my cousin is a vascular surgeon and has a chair at mt sinai hospital...he himself told me to stay away from DO schools and he would choose a foreign med school over a DO"</p>

<p>What is anybody supposed to take from that, if not that you are categorically dismissing DO programs in favor of Caribbean MD programs?</p>

38

<p>1-if u decided to post my message in context, then you would see i wrote numerous times as long as the MD could prove himself.</p>

<p>furthermore, u do realize caribbean med schools arent the only type of foregin med schools right.</p>

39

<p>I'm well aware that Caribbean med-schools aren't the only type of foreign med-school, and that is specifically why I started asking about Caribbean med-schools. </p>

<p>
[quote]
-if u decided to post my message in context

[/quote]
</p>

<p>In context? Once again, here's your direct quote: "my cousin is a vascular surgeon and has a chair at mt sinai hospital...he himself told me to stay away from DO schools and he would choose a foreign med school over a DO"" What context am I missing? </p>

<p>Go through your old posts one-by-one and I think you cannot help but escape the logic that you specifically said that DO's are always worse than Caribbean MD's. If you want to withdraw that assertion now, fine. But don't try to pretend that you didn't say it.</p>

40

<p>i didnt say all DO's are worse then Caribbean MD's.</p>

<p>Ive spoken to NUMEROUS doctors and med students, and prospective med students...all who stay away from DO schools, and whod rather go to a foreign medical school.</p>

<p>Ive also read NUMEROUS articles about DO students wanting to transfer out of their DO school because its not what they want.</p>

<p>It will limit you TREMENDOUSLY and it isnt accepted. Idk where you live, but maybe you need to see how it works in NYC.</p>