Other LACs like Swarthmore

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
41

<p>Yep. She has planned out a half dozen potential majors and put together a freshman schedule that would preserve and sample as many of those options as possible. </p>

<p>She enjoyed the physics, but couldn't picture herself doing the physics/math/chem courseload to continue the major and, therefore, being limited in her ability to study other things that she enjoyed even more after sampling. She particularly couldn't see herself then having to go on and get PhD in physics, which is to a certain extent in the shadows of any decision to major in Physics. If you're honest with yourself, you really have to love Physics (or Chem or any hard science). My daughter knows students in her seminar who clearly did LOVE Physics.</p>

<p>She checked it out, enjoyed the seminar, and got the information she needed to make a go/no-go decision. Her freshman advisor (a Physics prof) had told her that was really the point of the 006H seminar. So, it all worked as planned and she fullfilled her math/science distribution requirments in the process.</p>

<p>We got the sense from some orientation sessions that the decision for strong high-school math science students to change direction in college is very common. I think the strength of a college like Swarthmore is that making informed decisions like that is pretty easy. God help her if she had enrolled at a tech school and found out first semester freshman year that math/physics wasn't her calling....</p>

<p>Momma:</p>

<p>Daughter's decision was more along the lines of physics being one of several different majors she wanted to sample. She wasn't a confirmed physics major going into it. Her decision wasn't gender-driven at all. She very much enjoyed the intro Physics seminar and the professors (she had been assigned a female Physics prof as a freshman advisor).</p>

<p>I'm working from memory, but a Physics major also entails doing at least the first two years (and realistically more) of the coursework for a math major. That's why majoring in Physics consumes so many of the available slots and limits your ability to take as many courses in the humanities and social sciences as you might like. It also means that you have to love both Physics and Math, since they are inextricably linked. My daughter knew early on from the proofs in Calc 6C that upper level math wasn't going to be her thing. As she put it, "I'm better with math that has numbers!" That realization made it obvious that being a Physics major wouldn't be the right choice. Conversely, when she watched other students debate Einstein's relativity with the professor like a baseball hound debates batting averages, she knew those were natural-born physics majors! The whole sampling process worked perfectly for those who did and did not opt to pursue a physics major.</p>

42

<p>ID,</p>

<p>I may have missed it, but has your D decided on another path? I agree that she was wise to go with an LAC rather than a technological university. So many kids like the sound of a subject but later find that it is not exactly all they had hoped. Or, they find something they do love even more, if given a chance to go exploring.</p>

43

<p>I don't think she went into freshman year with a firm commitment in any particular direction. Rather, she wanted to sample several options across the board. I think that, for most students, that's the best approach.</p>

<p>She ended up taking three First-year Seminars in the social sciences and seems inclined that direction. That was probably her natural inclination, but she wanted to give physics/math enough of a shot to make an informed decision because it had been her strength in high school. The Physics 006H seminar was perfect for that and a thoroughly enjoyable course on a mind-challenging subject.</p>

44

<p>My daughter is a senior in high school. We live in a small city in Virginia. She is interested in Engineeering and Physics. Although she is interested in where she will go to college, we have had to push her to make visits and we haven't made many. </p>

<p>We live in Virginia and she has visted and will apply to William and Mary and U VA. On her spring break we visited Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr, Olin and MIT. We were planning to visit Haverford but she ended up visiting Bryn Mawr with a high shcool friend instead. (She does not want to attend a woman's college but says that Bryn Mawr's relationship and physical proximity to Haverford makes it an exception.) After visiting Olin and MIT she decided that she would prefer a school with a less techincal focus.</p>

<p>This summer we had little time to visit. We visited Davidson and went back to Philadelphia so her mother could see Swarthmore and Bryn Mawr, and we also visited Penn. My wife and daughter also went to New York this summer to go to Broadway shows and while there she visited Columbia. The public high school my daughter attends has a better than average theatre department and puts on one or two musicals as part of each season. They always use a student orchestra. My daughter's favorite extra curricular has been playing keyboard in the pit orchestra. She also plays trumpet in the community youth orchestra and in the marching band. She does not want to major in music but it may be a minor. </p>

<p>She has liked everywhere she visited and wants to apply to Swarthmore, Bryn Mawr, Penn and Columbia. We want her also to apply to UVA, William and Mary and Davidson. A strange assortment. She is very resistant to looking anywhere else.</p>

<p>Her mother and I believe that a LAC is the best choice. She liked Swarthmore very much but no one can count on being accepted. Hence my original query that started this thread.</p>

45

<p>I don't think you have a bad list, as is. Your D sounds flexible and that's a good thing. As Virginia residents you have a better than avg chance of admittance and UVA is nothing to sneeze at academically (even with all the recent budget cuts.) Davidson is quirky-impaired to some extent, but, that may not be so important to D; they have a very similar work ethic to Swat and approach to teaching. In fact, some years ago, they were even sporting similar t-shirts (something to the effect "Anywhere else it would have been an A".)</p>

46

<p>Altho my son has enjoyed his physics classes, he's been much less impressed with the math dept. He placed out of the entire calculus sequence, so last year he took linear algebra and multivariable calculus (the only additional math courses he needed as a physics major) and didn't particularly like either of those courses.......both in terms of the subject matter and the prof's expectations. For some strange reason, he's taking another math course this semester (he has no plans to minor in math) and is much happier with this course and prof than he was last year. Actually, he's taking the course because it helps fulfill the writing requirement (they have to write proofs every week). </p>

<p>He's known he wanted to major in physics since he was in middle school and so far that hasn't changed. He also realizes he'll have to get his PhD and at this point accepts that that's the course he'll follow. I think he's more unusual than students like ID's daughter who enter college with lots of different possibilities to explore.</p>

<p>If a student comes into Swat with credit for the full year of calculus, then they can fulfill the physics major's math requirement by the end of their freshman year and not have to keep filling their schedule with science and math classes. There are no other non-physics science courses required as a physics major.</p>

47

<p>Shellfell - What in particular was your S unhappy about with the math department? What about the prof's expectations? Too low? Unclear? Swarthmore is high on my D's list for so many reasons, and math (pure math, not applied) is her primary, but not exclusive, interest. She'll only have BC calculus and AP statistics under her belt when she graduates from high school, so I'm hopeful that the math department will have plenty to offer a student at her level. Any further thoughts on the math department would be welcome.</p>

48

<p>
[quote]
If a student comes into Swat with credit for the full year of calculus, then they can fulfill the physics major's math requirement by the end of their freshman year and not have to keep filling their schedule with science and math classes.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>True. If you have AP Calc BC, you can fulfill the math requirement for Physics in two semesters.</p>

<p>If you have AP Calc AB, it takes three semesters.</p>

<p>If you don't have AP Calc credits, it takes four semesters and you're probably barking up the wrong tree majoring in Physics at Swat in the first place!</p>

<p>Your are right, no other science course required for the Physics major. Chem majors really get kicked because you have to take intro chem, intro physics, and the math courses. That consumes the bulk of the first year course slots and makes it really difficult to preserve options to major in other divisions.</p>

<p>Physics is still pretty schedule intensive. Including the four semesters of math (two of which can be placed out of), I think the requirements are a minimum of 15 semesters and, more typically 17 semesters. Majors in many other departments only require 10 to 12 semesters. </p>

<p>When people ask why more students don't major in the physical sciences, I think this is one reason, especially if you are trying to keep options open with your first year schedule. The other reason is that the physical sciences and engineering are really hard majors, so people tend to not select them unless they are really "into" the subject matter. It could well be that you are either born a physics major or not...</p>

<p>As for the math courses, my daughter had a 5 on the Calc AB test, so placed out of two of the three half semesters. She took the "points and series" part of Calc which is paired with a half semester on an "advanced math" topic of the professor's choosing. It was the hardest course she encountered freshman year. At the end of the semester she was very happy to get her worst "shadow grade" of her eight freshman year courses. This seems to be a somewhat universal experience for many students at all demanding colleges. Kids get spoiled by the slow pace of math courses in high school and college level math is a challenge.</p>

49

<p>
[quote]
She does not want to attend a woman's college but says that Bryn Mawr's relationship and physical proximity to Haverford makes it an exception.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Just remember that Bryn Mawr is bigger than Haverford, and Haverford has more women than men. So the combined colleges are more than 75% women. Not a problem, but perhaps not what your daughter has in mind for a coed experience.</p>

50

<p>InVirgina:</p>

<p>Your daughter's working list is probably reasonable, depending on what you mean by "competitive" for Swarthmore. By that I mean that if she is a strong candidate for Swarthmore (top class rank, 1500+ SATs, good ECs), then in-state admissions at W&M and UVa is probably a pretty sure bet. IF that is the case, then you don't need to be as concerned about "safety" schools.</p>

<p>My D looked at both W&M and UVa. She thought UVa was too big, but planned to apply to W&M. But, we were out of state, so W&M was hardly a safety and nowhere near as attractive a value with out-of-state tuition. We liked it enough that it would be hard to look elsewhere with in-state tuition.</p>

<p>She also looked at Davidson. I've since come to realize that the culture of the school wouldn't have been right for her (too homogenously white, wealthy, and preppy), but it is a great school academically and has a lot to offer. It is definitely easier to get into that Swarthmore or Columbia. My D had midpack test scores for Swarthmore, which put her in the 75th percentile for Davidson. She had a very strong class rank and a compelling EC, so I felt that Davidson was pretty close to a lock, particularly for a New England applicant (my "reverse commute" theory of college applications). She also was interested in Emory and felt her chances of admissions there were strong as well.</p>

<p>Another school that would fall roughly in the same selectivity range as Davidson would be Vassar. A lot of kids who like Swarthmore also seem to like Vassar. They aren't exactly the same; Vassar being decidedly more artsy.</p>

<p>For a solid Swarthmore applicant, both Bryn Mawr and Barnard (the woman's college associated with Columbia)should be safe bets, due to the lower selectivity at woman's colleges. So either might be worth considering. If it were my D, I would have some talks about the Columbia/NYC thing and try to figure out if she wants the reality of living in NYC or if she is thinking about some romanticized image. </p>

<p>My advice:</p>

<p>a) Try to ascertain whether your two top-notch in-state schools are indeed "locks" for your daughter. If they are, then she can go with a pretty short list of schools that really interest her.</p>

<p>b) Plan a couple of overnights at the top schools. I wouldn't even consider Columbia without an overnight. And, if Swarthmore is her first choice, then an overnight will allow her to knock the Why Swarthmore? essay out of the ballpark, which is very important. Early decision would also improve the chances for a strong applicant considerably. </p>

<p>Additional things that would help would be to set up meetings with the music and theater departments along with any academic departments of interest. My daugther "logged" these contacts by cc'ing her e-mails to her regional adcom -- e-mails of introduction to the department heads, e-mails setting up meetings, e-mails thanking them after the meetings following her overnight visit. Thus, her regional adcom already had a picture of an applicant who took enough initiative to track down the right people and set up meetings to learn more about the school -- all without "pestering" the adcom with an endless barrage of questions that could be better answered elsewhere on campus.</p>

<p>A solid Swarthmore applicant who demonstrates that level of interest and initiative, gets to know the college well enough to write an effective "Why Swat?" essay, and who applies Early Decision is likely going to be accepted. That's what they are looking for! </p>

<p>More importantly, getting to know people around campus made my D very confident in her choice of Swarthmore and virtually eliminated the trepidation about going off to college. She already felt like a Swattie by the time we actually loaded the car to drop her off -- and had for many months. There's a real synergy there. The more she got to know the school, the more she knew it was a good "fit", and the better she could communicate that in her application.</p>

51

<p>I've said this many times before but I totally agree about the synergy. My son went into Swat applying RD and he did not go to visit campus beforehand or go to Ride the Tide. We visited before RTT, but it was a day visit. In any case, he walked into orientation with some trepidation; but the fear was unfounded. The synergy was established in the first year. Now he walks, talks and acts very much like a Swattie: no apologies for being nerdy, being interested in academics, loving classwork, but also enjoying himself after hours. There definitely is a culture there worth talking about, an identity. I can see him being a very loyal alum when he graduates.</p>

52

<p>nceph - I think my son's biggest issues with the math dept. had more to do with him than with the profs per se (that's my impression, not what he said). He was always a top math student, took Calc BC as a jr and mutivarialbe calc as a sr, got A's in math without much effort at a competitive prep school. When he got to Swat, he found (1)that he really didn't like linear algebra and (2)profs collected and graded homework (not something he was used to from HS) according to what he considered rigid standards. Ever since he was in elementary school he has rebelled against teachers who expect math homework done a certain way (he always figured out alot of it in his head and never showed as much work as teachers expected). Don't know for sure if that was part of the problem at Swat, but I'd assume it was. His worst grades freshman year were in math......he thinks his grades were probably typical for the courses, but since kids at Swat don't talk about grades, he's not certain. I do know he's enjoying his math course this semester, both the content and the prof. He's attributing last year's problems to the profs.</p>

53

<p>Shellfell:</p>

<p>It is also possible that your S is now starting to think like a mathmetician and, therefore, finding easier, more enjoyable sledding.</p>

<p>My D explained that she had always liked math in high school because there was an answer that was either right or wrong. Getting the answer right was the goal.</p>

<p>In her Swarthmore math class, getting the "right" answer counted for almost nothing. The focus was on the underlying theory and being able to apply that to problem sets that were intentionally different and challenging. </p>

<p>I have to assume that it throws many students for a loop. Her prof published the grade distributions and, on the first big quiz, only three students scored in the B- to B+ range, none in the A range. This would have been in a class of students who had all scored 5s on the Calc AB AP test.</p>

<p>I don't think it's a "Swarthmore" issue. My wife works around college students at an elite university. She hears a lot of hand-wringing over freshman math experiences. We have heard from family friends who have experienced similar challenges at yet another elite university. I just think it's a shock to have had math come so easily throughout high school and then run into a brick wall.</p>

<p>BTW, my impression is that virtually all courses at Swarthmore require "stepping up your game" relative to high school. But, in most departments, the courses are so different from high school, that students intuitively understand the challenge. I think it's harder to grapple with that same increase in degree of difficulty for top high school math students.</p>

54

<p>Thanks afan for comment re "coed experience." </p>

<p>And thanks, too, for interesteddad 's comments re "working list." </p>

<p>The entire college admission process was something my wife and I were totally unfamiliar with and unprepared for. Since last spring, I have attempted to obtain information from various sources. I became aware of college confidential only a few weeks ago and already have benefited from the information available here.</p>

<p>My daughter's test scores are not a problem. She is in the upper quartile for admitted students everywhere. Her class rank is also not a problem. She is not first or second in her class, but all her courses except those in music are honors or AP and she makes top grades. Extra curricular's are more problematic. Throughout high school she has been very involved in activities related to music, and these activites outweigh everything else. She does not, however think that she wants to make a career in music. One of the attractions of Swarthmore (and other LACs) is our belief that there will be opportunities for participating in a wide range of musical activities. I have subscribed to the daily Swathmore emailed student newspaper and that has proved informative and interesting, including providing information regarding extra-curricular activities.</p>

<p>My wife and I think that our daughter will probably, although not assuredly, be admitted to both UVA and William & Mary, and that the chance of her being rejected by both of them is not likely. So in a sense we are looking at those two schools as her safety school. Neither, of course, is comparable to a liberal arts college like Swarthmore. So we don't have a back-up or safety in that category. In the last few days we have looked into Carleton and it looks really good on paper, but it can't be considered a back-up to Swarthmore. (And Minnesota is a long way from Virginia.) We agree that Davidson is a different kind of school in a number of ways - Division 1 athletics and the fraternity (and quasi-sorority) scene included. Vasser certainly bears some looking into. </p>

<p>I guess an unresolved underlying issue is whether we believe that attending only a very top ranked liberal arts school like Swarthmore outweighs the non-liberal arts competition, including our good in-state alternatives. Or whether a liberal arts school, even if not a Swarthmore or its competitors, is still the best choice.</p>

55

<p>
[quote]
Throughout high school she has been very involved in activities related to music, and these activites outweigh everything else. She does not, however think that she wants to make a career in music. One of the attractions of Swarthmore (and other LACs) is our belief that there will be opportunities for participating in a wide range of musical activities.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Others here, including Mini, know a lot more about music departments. However, I think what you have outlined is generally on track. For the most part, any student who wants to be involved in music at a place like Swarthmore (or similar school) can be involved, to whatever extent she prefers. Unlike some of the Ivy League schools or smaller schools with a specific music focus (Oberlin, for example), it is not going to be a competitive situation where you have to beat out nationally recognized talent for spots in an orchestra, ensemble, or pit band for a musical. Thus, there are opportunities for non music majors and for students who want to be involved for fun more than as a full-time vocational pursuit.</p>

<p>It all depends on the student. Mini's daughter, for example, had an interest in composition and in a somewhat specialized area (opera). Swarthmore just didn't have enough for her, although it might for someone else interested in contemporary orchestral composition.</p>

56

<p>Invirginia,
My S is a junior at Swat. Not a music major or minor. (No pun intended.) He also had a siginficant out of school extracurricular music activity in high school. He made a CD of himself playing two pieces and sent it to the attention of the music department at Swat. I think that it was an important piece of his application "puzzle." The music department makes an evaluation of the CD, and then passes along their "professional" insights to admissions. So, when S says on his application that he won awards in competitions playing this instrument, the admissions committee also has the benefit of an "in house" evaluation. Here is exactly what Swarthmore suggests: </p>

<p>"If you are applying to Swarthmore and you have a serious, on-going commitment to work in music, you should submit an audio recording along with your application. It may enhance your prospects of admission whether or not you intend to major in music.</p>

<p>Your recording may be in any format and should include two compositions, ideally in contrasting styles. Singers should include at least one Italian art song, German lied, or opera aria. If you wish to be evaluated in more than one area (for example, piano performance and voice), please submit separate recordings for each. Include a brief statement indicating how long you have studied and listing the groups you have performed with, if applicable. Composers: please submit scores of one or two of your compositions, with audio recording if possible.</p>

<p>We do not require an audition in person. Still, we hope you will be able to visit our campus. Please arrange to visit when classes are in session if at all possible. It is often possible for prospective students to arrange to meet with faculty while they are visiting. Please e-mail our Department Coordinator at <a href="mailto:music@swarthmore.edu">music@swarthmore.edu</a> to arrange for an appointment. We also suggest that you review the materials on our website, as the answers to many commonly asked questions may be found here."</p>

<p>Other schools your child may be interested in may have similar suggestions.</p>

57

<p>Invirginia, your comments regarding your daughter's musical background were preceded by the comment that her "ec's are more problematic", so I assume your/her primary concern is Swat admission. If that is the case your daughter is going to want to shine a very bright light on her musical activities and accomplishments. Admissions @ Swat and similar schools are looking for dynamic kids with multiple talents and interests, kids who have interests that are deep as well as wide and that have made thoughtful choices rearding how to spend their time away from the books. Since your daughter has had such a singular musical focus up to now she must make that very clear. Even though she may not plan to pursue music as seriously going forward, she should also clearly communicate the passion for music that has guided her up to now. Lastly, in my opinion, the benefits of Swat do not accrue equally to all that matriculate. As often stated on this board, the "why Swarthmore" question rules. Most students select reaches, matches and safeties, however to get into Swarthmore, a prospect must dig deep into both Swat and themselves to figure out why them and not someone else as well as why Swat and not someplace else.</p>

58

<p>
[quote]
Most students select reaches, matches and safeties, however to get into Swarthmore, a prospect must dig deep into both Swat and themselves to figure out why them and not someone else as well as why Swat and not someplace else.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>I agree with that. However, I don't think it is all that difficult to do. The challenge, at least for my daughter, was taking what she "felt" every time she had been on campus or talked to an alum and finding specific examples to put into words.</p>

59

<p>InVirginia,</p>

<p>My D graduated from Swat a year ago with a double major in music and another subject. She did not intend to major in music when she got there, but was so taken with the instructors that she made a clear decision in her sophomore year to do two majors. Vocal music was her strength, and she had wonderful opportunities to sing in choruses and musicals and operas. The individual instruction was great, and the lessons were paid for by scholarships (auditions led to the scholarships each year.) Even her workstudy job involved the music department. Throughout her experience, she felt both challenged and nurtured by the faculty of the music department. I think it did help, ultimately, that she decided to major, but there are only a few music majors at a time, and the vast majority of students who participate in orchestra, chorus, musicals, acapella groups, etc, don't actually major in music. It is a wonderful environment. Other activities available, such as having the Philadelphia Orchestra so near, and trips to operas both in Philly and NY were wonderful additions to her experience.</p>

60

<p>InVirginia,</p>

<p>I'm joining in this conversation mainly to respond to your interest in Carleton. Last year my son applied to, and was accepted at, both Swarthmore and Carleton. Although he wound up going elsewhere, he visited and was very interested in both schools. While these sorts of comparisons are invariably rather superficial and reductive, he found the students and atmosphere at Carleton to be a bit warmer, more sociable, and more unpretentious than at Swarthmore, and Swarthmore to be a bit more intensely bookish and politically oriented than Carleton. Both are terrific schools, of course.</p>

<p>A few things to consider regarding Carleton:</p>

<p>--It has long been well known for its science departments.</p>

<p>--Its location is much more isolated than Swarthmore's. Swarthmore is in suburbia. Carleton is in a small town - one that is exceptionally pleasant and charming (and also home to another fine LAC, St. Olaf). While Minneapolis is within weekend striking distance, it's not as immediately available as Philly is to Swarthmore students. Neither location, of course, is inherently better or worse - it's just a matter of preference. (I'm a bit surprised that people don't focus more on differences in location when comparing schools.) </p>

<p>--How does your daughter feel about winter (as in snow, etc.)? Minnesota winters are the real thing. Again, it's simply a matter of preference.</p>