Other LACs like Swarthmore

Colleges and Universities A-Z Swarthmore College
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<p>The differences you note between the student body at Carleton and Swarthmore would be expected from the demographics of the student bodies.</p>

<p>Just looking at the '08 freshman class, Swarthmore draws most heavily from the east coast and Carleton most heavily from the midwest.</p>

<p>From NY, NY, PA, MD, MA, CT:</p>

<p>Swarthmore: 53%
Carleton: 14%</p>

<p>From MN, WI, IL</p>

<p>Swarthmore: 4%
Carleton: 40% (25% from MN alone)</p>

<p>I think the characteristics you note would be stereotypically applicable to "midwesterners" and "east coasters" across the board. Further, the demographics mean that Swarthmore's students are more likely to live in, or near, larger urban areas.</p>

<p>The "style" of the two colleges would almost have to be different. Swarthmore is a very "friendly" place, but east coast "friendly" looks and feels a little (a lot?) different than midwest "friendly".</p>

<p>It's not just the geographic distribution of the current students, but the impact of that distribution over a century or more, as the character of the two schools developed.</p>

<p>A more contemporary function of the geographic distribution is diversity. Swarthmore has 38% non-white or non-US students compared to 25% at Carleton with the big differences being Asian-American and Latino. This year's freshman class at Swarthmore is 44% non-white or non-US. That diversity is immediately apparent on campus.</p>

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<p>interesteddad,</p>

<p>Yes, I agree with all of this. Carleton definitely has a midwestern feel to it, which Swarthmore obviously doesn't. And I do think that many of the differences that my son perceived between these two schools are emblematic of broader regional differences. Also, in light on my son's own experience, he was viewing these schools through a midwestern lense (albeit urban - Chicago area).</p>

63

<p>Thanks Epistrophy. We have looked more closely at Carleton and my daughter has decided to appply. Carleton was on her mega-list but had dropped off in part because of her mother's desire that she not attend school so far from out home. My daughter likes to ski and the thought of living in Minnesota in the winter isn't offputting.</p>

<p>As I have said before, I had not been aware of College Confidential until a few weeks ago and have found much useful information and many interesting discussions here. Since seeing your post here, I have read the threads you started last spring when your son was deciding where he was going to enroll. The Williams/Amherst/Swarthmore and Harvard vs. LACs were very interesting. (And Interesteddad's access to and command of the relevant stats is incredible.)</p>

<p>Some of what I've read, though, has been disheartening. The recent thread started by Andi (and her related posts) from last spring are much appreciated but have made me question the effectiveness and efficiency of the elite college admissions process. Except in the case of the truly exceptional or distinctive applicant, there is a randomness or arbitrariness to the process that seems, while if not actually unfair, to nevertheless devalue the time and effort that the participants invest in the process.</p>

<p>For example, siginifcant emphasis seems to be placed on eliciting and evaluating the applicant's response to why he or she wants to attend the particular school or believes that he or she fits there. I do not know how my daughter will answer those questions, but I think it will be harder than it might seem. Neither her mother nor I attended either a liberal arts college or an elite university. Although at least purple ourselves, we live in the reddest part of a very red state. Although a strong student who likes learning, my daughter is not unusually "intellectual." Although she likes and participates in athletics and outdoors activities, she chose to stop participating in varsity sports (soccer and track) at her high school after tenth grade. Although gifted musically, in all likelihood music will be an avocational interest not a professional one for her.</p>

<p>She has no friends or even acquaintances who have attended a school like Swarthmore. Yesterday I asked my daughter if she knew anyone who was applying to a liberal arts college other than to perhaps W&L or the University of Richmond and she said she didn't. From last year's graduating class at her high school (approximately 420) I know of only twelve or so students who enrolled anywhere other than at a state school in Virginia or neighboring North Carolina. One young man from last year's class is at Harvard this year and one young woman is attending Stanford. But other than someone who attends Davidson, neither my daughter nor I know anyone personally who attends a top-ranked LAC.</p>

<p>So why is she interested in attending a school like Swarthmore (or Carleton)? In part because her mother and I suggested it and from what she's learned she doesn't disagree. Isn't that true of many kids? Other than the University of Virginia, her first visit to any college was to Swarthmore. and she liked it very much. But I would be very surprised if she did not like Carleton or another LAC very much also. Unfortunately, she will not have had an opportunity to visit many schools before the January application deadlines. (Epistrophy, if I understood correctly, it was encouraging to read that your son did not visit several schools to which he applied before being accepted.)</p>

<p>This is not to say that my daughter doesn't have opinions about lots of things including where she might want to go school. Prior to visiting, she thought she might want to apply to Olin and MIT. After visiting she has decided not to apply, in part because the visit helped her see that she is not yet ready to make a career commitment to engineering which she at times has leaned toward. And she started out not wanting to apply to an Ivy, but now intends to apply to Columbia and Penn.</p>

<p>This post has turned out longer than I intended and upon rereading not very focused. Partly it reflects my discordant feelings about the admissions process and my concern that my daughter not have everything invested in a particular outcome. But also I wanted to thank all of you who are generously sharing your information and thoughts.</p>

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<p>InVirginia:</p>

<p>On LACs:</p>

<p>As far as most frequent college choices, your daughter's high school is not unusual at all. The biggest chunk of kids at virtually every normal American high school go to the state university. Virginia is even more pronounced because your state university is actually a great school. </p>

<p>New England/NY/PA is the only region of the country where liberal arts colleges are a significant portion of the college app landscape. That's because there are so many of them and they have been a part of the premium end of the education market for centuries. For example, I counted a dozen LACs within a four hour drive of Boston. That's something like 20,000 undergrads -- the size of a good state university. Add another large number for the many LACs within a couple hour drive of Philadelphia. </p>

<p>On top of that, you have the dominance of private colleges in this region. When you have Harvards and Williams and Yales and Amhersts and UPenns and Swarthmores in abundance, the state universities have never catered to the "luxury school" buyer like they have in the south or the midwest or the far west. Suffice to say that people don't talk of UMass in the same reverent tones as they do UVa, UMich, and UC-Berkeley!</p>

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<p>On randomness in acceptances:</p>

<p>While I believe that Andison's story is vitally important for parents to read, I would also caution that his result was somewhat predictable. In fact, when I first mentioned his story to my daughter, her reaction (based on nothing but his high school and his college list was, "what did he expect? that list is ridiculous..." </p>

<p>She had friends, including one from a nationally prestigious NE prep school, who had similarly ridiculous lists -- although that student at least had the sense to include one sure bet (where he is now attending) in addition to the standard-issue laundry list of Harvard, Yale, Princeton, MIT, and Brown. She tried and tried to talk some sense into this kid troughout senior year, but it was almost like he was really choosing to attend his one "safety" and the rest was just some fantasy game -- because the eventual result was so predictable. Unless you can identify some specific reason to the contrary, Harvard, Yale, and Princeton should never be viewed as "realistic" schools on a college list. The realistic reach schools for even the top applicants should be in the range of Brown, Dartmouth, Duke, Williams, Swarthmore, Amherst, Penn, WashU, etc. Harvard, Yale, and Princeton should only be viewed as fantasy add-ons, not part of the actual admissions strategy. Their acceptance rates, for the purpose of odds calculations, approach zero.</p>

<p>It was even worse for Andison. Note that Swarthmore has 50% of its students from the northeast. That is true of every one of these la-di-da schools. The last thing any of these schools need is another applicant from a wealthy Boston or Westchester County community. The adcoms have to beat them off with sticks just to have room to pile up the apps....and half of 'em are legacies. These kids might as well mimeograph their application lists -- five Ivies, Duke, maybe an LAC or two, and throw in a Wash U or a Tufts or an Emory as a "safety".</p>

<p>The absolute worst-case admissions profile is a white kid from a well-known wealthy school in the NY-Boston corridor. The adcoms hold them to an incredibly high standard. Read "The Gatekeepers" about an admissions cycle at Wesleyan and you'll see exactly what happened and how to avoid it. In the book, the adcom picks up an app, skims the first page (a high SAT white kid from a wealthy suburban school) and comments to the writer, "This one better be good....."</p>

<p>Andison topped it off by then (effectively) telling Swarthmore he had no particular interest in the school. His dominant EC was music and he was very accomplished. But, his guidance counselar had told him that it would just irritate the adcoms if he sent a performance recording for evaluation. Guess what? Swarthmore's music department guidelines for prospective students say, in black and white, that if you want your music performance to be considered as a plus on your application, you MUST send a recording to the music department. Anyone who had bothered to visit the music department or read the link for "prospective students" at the website, or digested the instructions on the actual application would know this. At Swarthmore, the music faculty actually listens to tapes - a perfect opportunity for a kid to have an "advocate" on campus (the ultimate best-case scenario for any applicant). So what is the Swarthmore admissions office suppose to conclude when they don't get a tape? That he is really super-interested? Makes you want to cry because Andison was so accomplished that he had performed a piece broadcast on arguably the top NPR station in the country. Not only did he get no "credit" for this kind of feather in his cap, his failure to submit the recording was a big black mark on his app.</p>

<p>Combine this sort of mistake with a top-heavy college list and a gridlocked traffic jam from la-di-da Boston suburbs to a dozen la-di-da colleges and you have the perfect storm.</p>

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<p>Invirginia, neither my husband, nor I went to an elite college in this country. We're immigrants from a third world country. We also did not know about LACs. The reason my son applied to Swarthmore was because of the tons of information the admissions office was sending him. And his guidance counselor told him, it was an impossible reach for him because (although he was in the top 7% of his school and had the appropriate scores) Swarthmore only took valedictorians and salutorians. This was from the limited experience that our guidance counselor had - and we're from New Jersey. Swarthmore was a shot in the dark for my son, he tried and he did get in in the regular decision round. So, I don't think it should be as much of an uphill battle as you think it is, if your daughter listens to everything that ID and others have outlined here.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
For example, siginifcant emphasis seems to be placed on eliciting and evaluating the applicant's response to why he or she wants to attend the particular school or believes that he or she fits there. I do not know how my daughter will answer those questions, but I think it will be harder than it might seem. Neither her mother nor I attended either a liberal arts college or an elite university. Although at least purple ourselves, we live in the reddest part of a very red state. Although a strong student who likes learning, my daughter is not unusually "intellectual."

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A couple of comments. First, I don't think that Swarthmore students need be unusually "intellectual". I don't think my daughter was. I suspect I know Achat well enough to guess that she wouldn't have viewed her son that way. I think that the majority of Swarthmore students arrive at college as fairly hard workers in high school, good students, some teachers pets, some "geeky", some intensely committed to an EC interest, some "activists". Not too many prom queens. Not too many captains of their high school football teams. Tend to have run in the "smart crowd" at public high schools more so than the "popular crowd". I think the one shared trait is that most students who come to Swarthmore think that it's "cool" to enjoy their classes. There are some who take themselves pretty seriously, but overall it's a pretty unpretentious student body.</p>

<p>As for the "Why Podunk U?" question. It's really not that hard and it doesn't take that much to stand out. Colleges just want to see that you've bothered to learn something, anything, about what makes them unique and how you would be a good fit.</p>

<p>I really like the way Emory words their "Why Podunk U?" question:</p>

<p>
[quote]
Many students decide to apply to Emory based on its size, location, reputation, and yes, the weather. Besides these valid reasons to choose Emory as a possible college choice, why is this university a particularly good match for you?

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Here's what Swat's Dir. of Admissions had to say in an interview a couple of years ago, while in the middle of reading ED applications:</p>

<p>
[quote]
DG: What sort of things do you look for in an application?</p>

<p>JB: Swarthmore is pretty self-selecting, so scores generally aren't an issue. We want to see a commitment to a few activities, see what your motivations and passions are. There's not really anything in particular - just follow your interests. And of course we want to see a passion for learning, which is why the essay is so important - it helps us go beyond the surface. One student may apply because Swarthmore is a top school, which isn't necessarily bad, but someone else may apply because Swarthmore is a top school AND it has X, Y, and Z. We like to see that a student has researched their choice.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>X, Y, and Z could be anything. I read one essay from someone who wrote about knowing that he would find people at Swarthmore who would be willing to listen to, and debate, his wacky ideas on government.</p>

<p>My daughter took a very simple approach. One night over dinner, we talked about her just completed overnight visit and how much she loved it. I asked what was the one thing that stood out about each person she had met with. For the professor who showed her around the science labs, it was his "enthusiasm". For another prof, whose class she had attended, it was the way she had gotten all of the students debating aspects of the novel in the class. For her student hosts, she had been struck by the fact that they felt like her best friends after one night, they made her feel like she fit right in.</p>

<p>Bingo. The outline of a nice simple "Why Swarthmore" essay that basically wrote itself - X, Y, and Z complete with names and faces to bring it to life. Of course, looking back with hindsight, each of those things turned out to be key qualities of the school and things that she likes even more as a student.</p>

<p>If your daughter likes Swarthmore, or any other school, spend some time talking about what she likes, even the little small stuff. And, then she could just write about those things. She could probably write an effective essay about just about anything, but try to have a little fun with it. Dig around the website. Read some school newspaper articles. If she leans towards an Early Decision app, then doing an overnight visit would probably be worthwhile, just to confirm her decision and come up with ammunition for a killer essay.</p>

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<p>ID is right. I wouldn't view my son as particularly intellectual. He does have a spark and that's what perhaps got him in.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
and you have the perfect storm.

[/quote]
We've been watching the weather channel and are hoping for sunshine this time around :)</p>

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<p>Why only LACs? I'm now a freshman at Stanford and last year I really thought I wanted to go to a LAC. I eventually realized that it was a bit too small for my taste when I visited Swarthmore and spent the night in the spring. One thing I didn't even consider was that larger schools (like Stanford) have subcultures that can be a lot like a LAC. There's program SLE that's a residential program, classes in the dorms, supposed to be pretty intense, humanities oriented although there are still a good number of techies in the program, a lot like Swat. There's also FroSoCo where there are optional meetings with all sorts of brilliant people on campus, the dean is their residential fellow so they get all sorts of perks like that, the dorm is a bit more intellectual than the average dorm on campus. I suspect that other colleges may have similar programs or even certain majors that create a different subculture. One can still interact with profs and have a sense of community here and even have your prof invite your class over for dinner one night (well if it's a smaller seminar) just you need to take the initiative. If one is still sure that one wants to go to a LAC that's great, Swat is an awesome place (my former mentor at the lab where I worked couldn't stop raving about it), but if a smaller subculture will suffice than I think it's at least worth looking into.</p>

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<p>Marlgirl:</p>

<p>I think the reason that many kids pick LACs is that universities can be a bit of a roll of the dice. For every student like you who has found a comfortable challenging "subculture", there are many posts in this forum by students at larger universities who haven't found their "niche" and are wandering around, lost and lonely.</p>

<p>Both approaches to undergrad education have their pluses and minuses. I like to compare the two to living in a big city with tons of options at your doorstep but you might not know your neighbors versus living in a small town where there are fewer options but is a strong sense of community that is very rewarding.</p>

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<p>Marlgirl:</p>

<p>Both Stanford and Swarthmore are wonderful schools. As I've told you before, I have a child at each, so I am fairly familiar with both.</p>

<p>Each school has its advantages, and they provide a very different "undergraduate experience". While both of my kids have contact with faculty in their respective schools, at Swarthmore it is a kind of "personal relationship" I did not imagine was even possible between students and faculty. </p>

<p>And there is the “campus culture” issue. Both campuses are full of bright and hard-working kids. But at Stanford it's “cool” to be “laid back”. SLE kids are often labeled as loosers, and even FroSoCo is considered “social suicide” by many. At Swarthmore it's “cool” to be a nerd. I think SLE program is a lot like Swarthmore-at-Stanford. But it only lasts one year (although SLE stigma apparently, stays with you for the rest of you days there ;)).</p>

<p>My son's classes at Stanford average 150 students. Sure , they have sections, but those are taught by TAs. Some TAs are much better then others. My son, who is a junior, is a TA this year, teaching a section with 14 freshmen. It has been a great opportunity and a great experience for him. I am sure that he got a proper training, and is very competent at what he is doing. Nevertheless, being taught by a fellow undergraduate is probably not the same as being taught by the professor who teaches the course.
However, being at Stanford also gave him an opportunity to take graduate level classes and participate in research alongside grad students and postdocs in an extremely well-run university sponsored paid summer internship program.</p>

<p>At Swarthmore so far my daughter had one "huge" class with 60 students. All the rest had been under 20. This changes the nature of the classes. Even regular non-seminar classes are interactive, and the students are active participants, as opposed to just listeners. I know that at Stanford my son some times does not go to classes and just reads the lectures on line, claming that it's the same thing. It is not “the same thing” at Swarthmore. You almost never can be passive and anonymous.
My daughter is also a TA, but at Swarthmore her role is limited to grading homework/tests and being available at TA sessions for students who need help on homework. All the teaching is done by the professor.</p>