Parental wisdom, please?

Parents Forum
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<p>Hello everyone. I am a senior from Wisconsin, and I am having major issues with my parents when it comes to searching for a college. They insist that if I choose to go to college (they think that college in itself is unnecessary), I should go to the local two-year community college. I try to tell them that I need to be on my own and experience life away from them, but they can't accept that I will be leaving in a short time. Also, not to knock the community college, but I can do so much better than that. I am applying to Dartmouth, NYU, Swarthmore, among others. They also, until recently, didn't believe that it was necessary to visit a college before enrolling. Absurd! I finally convinced them to visit two schools in the Twin Cities, which was quite the task. They are TOO practical, and it upsets me. </p>

<p>Also, they don't want/can't pay for much of my education at all. We've made about $20,000 max this year, so I am hoping, praying, and pleading for generous financial aid.</p>

<p>Do you, as parents, have any advice for me to help them understand my wants and needs? Any help would be appreciated. Thanks. x)</p>

<p>I apologize if this sounds whiny and ungrateful. However, I just can't succomb to their wishes.</p>

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<p>I'm not a parent. I'm also a student, but your situation is somewhat similar to mine.</p>

<p>I'm trying for Princeton, Wellesley, Rice, Stanford, etc, but I won't get any financial aid because of my income. BUT my parents think that it's a waste to spend $50,000 a year when Texas residents in the top 10% have guaranteed admission to great schools like UT Austin and Texas A&M which cost about $10,000 a year.</p>

<p>My advice to you is to apply to all the schools you want. More than likely, you'll get a generous amount of financial aid.</p>

<p>Once you are accepted, you can then discuss with your parents the advantages of going to a good school you like vs community college.</p>

<p>Maybe once they see how much financial aid you'll get, they might start thinking about it more.</p>

3

<p>I don't know about that, zanna. Are acceptance letters really going to change your parents' minds? If so, that's great. But if not, it'll just be an even bigger disappointment for you to have to turn down Princeton, Wellesley, etc. You said yourself that you won't get financial aid, so there won't be money for your parents to change their minds.</p>

<p>Idealistic, you might consider doing what your parents suggest. Go to the community college, then transfer. It's possible, and you will then be free of your parents and can do what you wish as an adult. Don't overestimate undergrad. Sometimes you can't get exactly what you want (you're certainly not whiny or bratty, so don't take my statements that way. Best of luck!)</p>

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<p>They also don't want me to move far away. I understand that they just care, but it's suffocating.</p>

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<p>
[quote]
I don't know about that, zanna. Are acceptance letters really going to change your parents' minds? If so, that's great. But if not, it'll just be an even bigger disappointment for you to have to turn down Princeton, Wellesley, etc. You said yourself that you won't get financial aid, so there won't be money for your parents to change their minds.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>haha well okay, maybe mine was a bad example. I'm a spoiled, only child. I can get it out of them if I cry hard enough ;]</p>

<p>But yeah, Idealistic32, consider transfer. That's a very good option because you can get your basic credits out of the way, then you can attend a college you really want to go to. Chances are, your parents will come around by then about you moving away.</p>

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<p>Idealistic32, would you feel suffocated at your state university? You happen to have a very attractive one in Wisconsin, and it might be a good choice if you don't get enough financial aid at the out-of-state schools.</p>

<p>Of course, if you actually live in Madison, it might not be the best idea to go to school there if you want to get away. I was kind of hoping that you might live in a different part of the state.</p>

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<p>Because of your low income you will get quite a bit of financial aid IF you can get your parents to fill out the CSS Profile as well as the FAFSA in a timely manner. And understand that, even if they meet all of your expected need, you will still need to come up with some money and will likely be expected to take out loans. I would also strongly suggest that you apply to UW-Madison so that you have a financial safety as well.</p>

<p>As far as advice to your parents, it is unlikely that you will get them to change their minds about what you want. The fact is, you can be successful by attending one of the 2 year UW programs and then transferring to Madison or one of the other state schools and end up saving quite a bit of money in the process. If your income is that low, they will have a hard time understanding why you want to spend more money than you need to get what they view as a similar product. Your best bet at this point is to get them to fill out the financial aid forms ASAP to increase your chances for qualifying for aid if accepted.</p>

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<p>Madison is about two and a half hours away, and I am applying there. It's always a viable option, as it is a great school, but if I get accepted at the likes of NYU, Dartmouth, Bard, Swarthmore, etc.., I will choose those, especially if I get top-notch financial aid.</p>

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<p>Will your parents fill out the forms for you to get financial aid? (They willl need to do this in Jan.) Will they also sign for you to get loans? If not, the only places that you probably can afford to go to are your local community college that you can commute to, and any 4-year public and private universities in Wisconsin that you will get generous merit aid and can commute to.</p>

<p>Without your parents filling out the financial aid paperwork for the colleges that provide need-based aid, you won't get any aid even if you get into them. </p>

<p>I hope that you've applied to University of Wisconsin-Madison, and also have filled out any merit aid forms (I know that in the past, those scholarship applications were due before the final date to accept one's college applicatinos) because you are very fortunate to live in a state where your flagship is a top 50 university. If you have the kind of stats that make you a contender at places like Dartmouth, you should have a good chance for merit aid at your state's public universities.</p>

<p>I think that University of Minn. also provides in-state tuition for Wisconsin residents and may give them some benefits for merit aid, so also check out the University of Minnesota's campuses including their merit scholarships and financial aid policies.</p>

<p>NYU's financial aid is bad.
If you go far away to college, you'll still have to pay a lot of money for transportation, moving costs, etc. This would be true even with generous financial aid. It would probably be wiser to go to undergrad closer to home.</p>

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<p>Keep in mind that while you are low income on paper, you may have assets that may knock you out of the low income box especially:</p>

<p>If you are house rich (do your parents own their primary home? if yes, how much equity is in it as there is an expectation to use some of it to pay for your education)</p>

<p>Are your parents self employed?</p>

<p>Do they own their own buisness or a farm?</p>

<p>all of these things can skew the financial aid picture</p>

<p>while there have been some changes in how the FAFSA treats self employment, no college has yet stated whether or not they will follow suit.</p>

11

<p>Yes, Wisconsin residents can attend U of MN at WISCONSIN in-state tuition rates. (That means they actually pay LESS than the Minnesota in-state students there.) </p>

<p>My sympathies to the students applying this year who aren't sure if their parents will join in supporting the EFC for a variety of colleges. I was there, in my day, and I attended State U and worked my way through. In this generation, I will fill out all forms, sign all commitments, pay out of pocket and take out loans, and generally do all I can to help my children have more choices. Whatever your parents do to help or not, make sure you find something you can do yourself to improve yourself, and enjoy your involvement in it.</p>

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<p>sorry time ran out before I could complete my post:</p>

<p>Keep in mind that while you are low income on paper, you may have assets that may knock you out of the low income box. While you may come out to a "0" EFC based on the FAFSA (especially if your family meets the simplified needs test) but the schools you have listed also use the CSS profile.</p>

<p>Does your family fall into any of these categories:</p>

<p>If you are house rich (do your parents own their primary home? if yes, how much equity is in it as there is an expectation to use some of it to pay for your education)</p>

<p>Are your parents self employed?</p>

<p>Do they own their own buisness or a farm?</p>

<p>all of these things can skew the financial aid picture</p>

<p>while there have been some changes in how the FAFSA treats self employment, no college has yet stated whether or not they will follow suit.</p>

<p>Simplified needs test:</p>

<p>In certain circumstances the Federal Need Analysis Methodology uses a simplified needs test to calculate the Expected Family Contribution (EFC). This simplified formula ignores assets, thereby increasing eligibility for financial aid. An applicant qualifies for the simplified needs test if the parents have an adjusted gross income of less than $50,000 and every family member was eligible to file an IRS Form 1040A or 1040EZ (or wasn't required to file a Federal income tax return). (Please note that starting in 2004, the AGI threshold for IRS Form 1040A and IRS Form 1040EZ changed from $50,000 to $100,000. Nevertheless, a threshold of $50,000 is still used for the simplified needs test.) </p>

<p><a href="http://www.finaid.org/educators/needs.phtml%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.finaid.org/educators/needs.phtml&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>The Simple Needs test, however, doesn't apply if one is required to file Form 1040. FinAid.org says one has to file Form 1040 if amounts other than 0 appear in particular lines of Form 1040 such as line 12 (business income) or 13 (capital gain/loss).</p>

<p>*Institutional Financial aid *
The CSS profile is used by many schools in conjunction with the fafsa to determine finanical aid at schools that distribute their own institutional funds based on need.</p>

<p>At minimum you file the FAFSA (at almost every school) to determine your eligibility for federal aid (Pell/ seog grants, stafford and perkins loans). The CSS profile is used at different colleges that distribute their own institutional aid.</p>

<p>Many schools that use a federal methodology to determine EFC will require only the FAFSA. Schools that use an instutional methodology or a combination of the 2 will require the CSS profile or their won FA forms.</p>

<p>Differences between the IM and FM models are</p>

<p>IM collects information on estimated academic year family income, medical expenses, elementary and secondary school tuition and unusual circumstances. FM omits these questions.</p>

<p>IM considers a fuller range of family asset information, while FM ignores assets of siblings, all assets of certain families with less than $50,000 of income, and both home and family farm equity.</p>

<p>FM defines income as the “adjusted gross income” on federal tax returns, plus various categories of untaxed income. IM includes in total income any paper depreciation, business, rental or capital losses which artificially reduce adjusted gross income.</p>

<p>FM does not assume a minimum student contribution to education; IM expects the student, as primary beneficiary of the education, to devote some time each year to earning money to pay for education.</p>

<p>FM ignores the noncustodial parent in cases of divorce or separation; IM expects parents to help pay for education, regardless of current marital status.</p>

<p>FM and IM apply different percentages to adjust the parental contribution when multiple siblings are simultaneously enrolled in college, and IM considers only siblings enrolled in undergraduate programs.</p>

<p>The IM expected family share represents a best estimate of a family’s capacity (relative to other families) to absorb, over time, the costs of education. It is not an assessment of cash on hand, a value judgment about how much a family should be able to use current income, or a measure of liquidity. The final determinations of demonstrated need and awards rest with the University and are based upon a uniform and consistent treatment of family circumstances.</p>

<p>Except in the most extraordinary circumstances, Colleges classifies incoming students as dependent upon parents for institutional aid purposes, even though some students may meet the federal definition of “independence.”</p>

<p>Students enrolling as dependent students are considered dependent throughout their undergraduate years when need for institutional scholarships is determined.</p>

<p>For institutional aid purposes a student may not “declare” independence due to attainment of legal age, internal family arrangements, marriage or family disagreements.</p>

<p>Your COA (cost of attendance) is tuition, room board, books travel expenses and some misc. expenses associated with attending college.</p>

<p>I would also recommend reading the following threads:</p>

<p><a href="http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=278829%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/showthread.php?t=278829&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>
[quote]
Dartmouth's current financial aid policy stipulates that, starting with the Class of 2009, students with family incomes less than $30,000, barring the existence of substantial assets, will receive grants covering all of their Dartmouth education. Starting with the Class of 2005, students whose families earn less than $45,000 also benefited. These students receive full grants their first year, with small loans to cover remaining costs in their three years left at the College, said Director of Financial Aid Virginia Hazen.</p>

<p>She went on the warn against the dangers of oversimplifying the financial aid equation.</p>

<p>"To simply say that there will be no contribution if the income is below a certain figure departs from need-based aid in some instances," Hazen said. She cited a hypothetical example of a student with a family income of $30,000, but $2 million in assets.</p>

<p>"If you based the determination strictly on income as some institutions are proposing, the student [with $2 million in assets] would get significant aid," Hazen said.</p>

<p>Penn, like Dartmouth, says that it examines each student's financial aid situation beyond family earnings.</p>

<p><a href="http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2006041001040%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.thedartmouth.com/article.php?aid=2006041001040&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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</p>

<p>I agree with the other parents, after all has been said and done, your parent will still be the ones who will have to file and submit their financial information in order to determine if you are eligible for financial aid for the next 4 years. If right now they are uncooperative because they want you to be close to home as Shennie and NSM stated a bunch of admissions letters in hand will not likely sway them and you will not be able to go to college with out them.</p>

<p>I hope that you and yoru family can sit down and come to some sort of a compromise.</p>

<p>good luck to you with this.</p>

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<p>Is it possible your parents are not supportive of your goals because they don't understand the system? If they are unfamiliar with the educational system this might all seem overwhelming. Maybe help them to understand what good options you might have. You can do the fafsa yourself if they give you copies of their tax returns, it's not hard. Use the knowledge of the CCers to get you through, but time is critical at this point!
Also consider a local cc and transfer after one year. My D transferred as a sophomore and it worked out really well. It gives you an extra year to get your parents on board and your apps etc. prepared.
Good luck! Don't give up.</p>

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<p>You've already gotten a lot of good advice above, but on this point I would add that it is certainly advisable to visit campuses before enrolling and nice if you can afford it, but it's not strictly necessary. In fact, many kids in your parents' generation never visited their colleges prior to enrolling. The notion of the College Tour was something of a luxury and just wasn't as routine as it is today.</p>

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<p>Coureur is right. It isn't "necessary," in the usual meaning of that word, to visit colleges, as most colleges will GLADLY admit you whether you have visited or not, and you may not find the right college for you even if you have visited quite a few. I know two men in my generation (and I am guessing they didn't have large amounts of money from their parents for going to college) who each attended FOUR different colleges while pursuing their undergraduate degree programs, which they still managed to complete in just four years. I guess for each of those guys, it took quite a long visit to decide which college was the right college to graduate from.</p>

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<p>">>They also, until recently, didn't believe that it was necessary to visit a college before enrolling. Absurd!<< </p>

<p>Your parents are right. If you're dedicated to get a college education, you'll comb the Internet and other resources to find out as much as you can about the colleges that you're considering applying to. Then, after you decide where to go, you'll take maximum advantage even if you've never set foot on the campus before.</p>

<p>When I went to grad school the first time, it was to Stanford, and I had never been west of Detroit. Culture shock? Heck yes, but I adopted to the situation.</p>

<p>My undergrad boyfriend arrived at Harvard by bus and had never been there before. He couldn't afford to visit when he was applying even though he lived in Baltimore. He graduated from there undergrad and then got his doctorate from there. Yes, it was an adjustment, but he was committed to his education, and he rose to the challenge just as many other students at a wide variety of colleges have done.</p>

<p>That was before the Internet and before lots of things that you probably take for granted: CC, blogs, videos showing the inside scoop of colleges, even relatively cheap long distance rates.</p>

<p>Given the info that's available, you should be able to find out a lot about colleges that you're considering applying to. While visiting before you accept their offers would be preferable, if you're willing to use the low cost or free research options that are available, you should be able to find out enough info to make a good decision about where to go.</p>

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<p>Given your parents made very little last year, perhaps their real concern is money. That would explain their suggestions of community college and not wanting to visit colleges (it gets expensive).</p>

<p>Perhaps you need to sit down with them and your finaid forms, along with details on each of the college's likely need-based packages. Be sure you have options that are inexpensive, as Madison will likely be for you. Keep your mind open to community college, especially with them - discuss the possibility of doing a year or 2 there and then transferring.</p>

<p>Another thing struck me as well - you made it sound as if your parents normally make more, or will make more in the future. If so, consider your need-based finaid is redone each year. So if Dartmouth gives you tons of aid this year, but next year you're above the finaid line and end up with a huge tuition bill, you'll have to transfer out anyway. Be sure to have a well-thought out financial plan, and discuss it with your parents - it may go a long way towards smoothing this over, and it will have the added benefit of making you all talk frankly about it and make you look responsible enough to actually go away to school :)</p>

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<p>You do not seem ungrateful and whiny at all, but you sound apologetic as an emerging adult might sound when showing respect for one's parents. Assuming that your parents are trade-minded: My experience has shown me that many people do excel professionally and financially in fields that traditionally do not necessarily require a college degree. (Such as those wonderful masons, salon owners , roofers, mechanics, etc.) However, finding a person who knows the trade as well as knows and carries out the professional business end (professional presentation to clients of all socio-economic backgrounds, dependebility, business and advertising saavy) definitly goes a long way to achieving success in today's business world. You may help your parents understand more about the benefit of a college education no matter what the field. This may not be the case for you, but it may help with your parents' understanding. Also, do a little creative research, you may want to show them websites about the sucess of those students from the schools you want to consider, in the field which you wish to pursue, including salaries and career possibilities. Keep your chin up. My husband was the first in his family to go to college on a GI bill, and he opened everyone's eyes. Once you go, I suspect your parents will be so proud of you, as I'm sure they already are. Good luck and God bless.</p>

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<p>I just want to dip in and say, about NYU, that yes, most students I know have found its financial aid less than great, but I know at least one extremely needy, academically strong student who got a far better package from NYU than from the Ivies who accepted him.</p>

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<p>Please share this with your parents. The very expensive private schools are often cheaper than the low cost schools - if you qualify for financial aid.
I find parents that think State U. will be cheaper than a private school, and the guidance people, although they know this, aren't always clear about it to parents. speaking of that .. has your high school spoken to your parents about college for you?
I only wish my child could go to Princeton because they do not even ask the student to take out loans. There is a post on here today that said Davidson College is going that way too. I think a few more are doing that. You would owe the EFC amount only. The big name colleges have HUGE endowments and can afford to let you attend for free. The community college could cost MORE than Princeton if you have a zero EFC. With 20k income it should be 0.
If you get merit money that can be true as well, and it will not matter what income your parents have each year.
You can go to Collegeboard.org and do a quick financial aid estimate to print out and show them.<br>
You need to figure out why they want you to do Community college. I "had" to only apply to a local state school because my father "knew" we wouldn't get money. They wouldn't file for aid and I suspect it was fear of someone somehow knowing their business, embarassment at family income and just not knowing about it and not wanting to admit they didn't know what to do. there was also this attitude -Garrison Kellior wrote about it in one of his books - "who do you think you are?". An anger at the child wanting to do better, resentment that they'd pass them somehow rather than wanting more for the kids.
If they are going to fill out FAFSA and CSS Profile, great. If not, call the schools and ask what to do, or see if any admissions people on this board can advise you. There are a number of admisson reps on the board now.</p>