Parents are hung up on loans, advice? [LONG]

Paying for College
1

<p>Hello,</p>

<p>My parents and I are in a three-way argument over how to pay for college. Could you guys give us advice on loans, please?</p>

<p>Information: I'm applying to 6 schools. 3 are private (2 in-state, 1 out-of-state), and 3 are public (2 in-state schools, 1 out-of-state flagship). My "dream" (I know you all hate that idea) private and the out-of-state public have a really amazing program (a 5 year BA-MAT), otherwise I wouldn't be considering the flagship (since it's $40,000/yr). I've visited most of these schools so far and I think they are all good fits, both academic-wise (for my stats regarding aid, and what they have to offer) and environment-wise. My dad went with me to tour Dream Private College, and I think he loves it more than I do. In other words, I would be happy at any of these schools.</p>

<p>I am applying to Dream Private College, That Other State's Flagship, and the two in-state publics EA.</p>

<p>The finances: I ran the NPC on Dream Private College, and the estimated COA is $17,000/yr without any loans, which is about our EFC. I know the NPC isn't totally accurate, but I compared the merit they have to offer with my stats and it seems to line up. This school also has a full-ride scholarship that anyone can apply to, so i'm going to do that. $17,000 over 4 years is about $70,000. </p>

<p>I would take out all of the federal loans I can ($27,000 over 4 years), and my parents said they have "a little over $20,000" that they have saved for me. I also have a job both during the school year and in the summer (which I am guaranteed during my summers at home), so by the time I go to college my freshman year i'll have about $5,000.</p>

<p>Taking that out of the COA, that leaves about $25,000 over 4 years up in the air. This is the best-case scenario, but I don't think the worst-case is much worse. It could be so much worse, we can all agree.</p>

<p>Us & our issues: We are an average middle-class family who is a little better off, but we live in a high COL area. My mom likes to paint us as victims of the recession and our high medical expenses, and wouldn't hesitate to classify our family as "working-poor." Your mileage may vary. </p>

<p>I am the second person in my family to attend any kind of college and the first to get a bachelor's or go to grad school (my intention).</p>

<p>The main problem is my mom. I know where I got my own stubbornness from, because my mom refuses to back down. And nobody in my house agrees with her.</p>

<ul>
<li>It was a war to get our finances for an NPC (and she hasn't given me exact numbers, just "what she remembers"). She doesn't want me involved or "to worry about the money" at all.</li>
<li>But at the same time, she says I have to pay for everything myself, yet offers $20,000 and herself as a cosigner on the private loans.</li>
<li>Yet she wouldn't take out a PLUS loan.</li>
<li>"You have to take our your own loans to pay for your own education, but I won't let you take out more than $50,000. That's insane." (I respect and agree with her, though.)</li>
<li>Told me she would only cosign loans if I chose a "real" major, which would be nursing, education, business, or engineering (lucky her that I picked one of those). "Any other major is useless and has 0 job prospects". I do agree with her to an extent, but she told me that International Relations is a "made-up basket weaving major for kids that don't have to do anything with their lives because they're so rich that helps you get a part-time job at Starbucks."</li>
<li>She refuses to go voluntarily to financial aid sessions at my HS, or at other schools/colleges, and when I drag her there she rolls her eyes and dismisses it as "feel-good nonsense" and that the FAFSA is a "government conspiracy so they can know everything about our finances."</li>
<li>She told me not to even look at private schools because of their sticker prices.</li>
<li>She told me it was crazy to consider applying to more than 4 schools, because "four is enough." I told her that 2 of the schools were free to apply to (another thing she didn't want me to pay, application fees, even though she told me I had to), and that I wanted to have some freedom when it came time to compare the financial aid packages.</li>
<li>Told me she doesn't care where I apply (again, huge oxymoron) and I can go where I want, but she gets the final say.</li>
</ul>

<p>I know that deep down my mother wants the best for me, and doesn't want me to be crippled by the debt that college brings, but in some aspects of her behavior she's being almost ignorant, which i've been trying to figure out how to tell her in a nice manner. I know I sound harsh when I type these things about her. I hope this whole entirely post doesn't come off as whiny, because it's not. I don't have all the answers, hence why I am here. </p>

<p>My dad
- Wants to take out PLUS loans, citing ridiculous interest rates and the general soul-crushing fiend that is Sallie Mae. He told me he doesn't want me to be crippled by too many loans.
- Wants me to go wherever is a good fit academically and socially; somewhere that makes me happy (so Dream Private College or anywhere else; i'm really not picky) while being "reasonably affordable."
- Prefers to play devil's advocate or just abstain from any college discussion that comes up between my mom and I.</p>

<p>So that's where we are. To PLUS, or not to PLUS. How many private loans are too many? And who is really right?</p>

<p>I know it is horribly, horribly selfish to ask my parents to take out loans for my schooling, but asking them to cosign a private loan seems just as bad. It's a lose-lose situation all around, I think. I really have my fingers crossed over the full ride from Dream Private School, because it would be the answer to my prayers that keep me up at night when I worry about how i'm going to pay for 5 to 6 years of schooling, but obviously I need to have another plan. </p>

<p>I know that around here, private/PLUS loans are thought to be a no-no, but also i've seen some people talking about how it "might be okay" if the student in question is majoring in a field that has good job and salary prospects, like nursing or engineering, and has done consistently well academically. I really want to be a teacher, and even though my GPA isn't the best, i've worked hard to bring it up after a dreadful freshman/sophomore year and I try to do the best I can (from a 2.9 to a 3.6 and now i'm at a 3.8 in all honors classes). I know deep down that this is what I want to do, which is also why i'm eyeing the 5 year BA-MAT programs. I know I haven't even considered funding for grad school yet, but i'm hoping for Dream Private College and That Other State's Flagship because it would save even more money. I know it's so wrong to have a Dream Private College and I should be realistic, but I think i'm almost overly-realistic sometimes about this whole process. I just hope that i'm thinking the right thing and that I end up making the right decision. So thank you if you read this and have any advice or encouragement to offer.</p>

<p>P.S.;
Are private loans through banks better than through Sallie Mae? Citizens (our bank) sent us that promotional flyer for low rates on their loans and I thought it was an awesome idea.</p>

<p>On an NPC, i'm supposed to put my unweighted GPA, right?</p>

<p>My parents claimed a large amount of itemized deductions on their taxes, mostly for medical expenses. If an NPC asks for this AND out-of-pocket medical expenses, do I still include the latter? (even though my parents are going to claim that deduction later on - at least, from my understanding of the itemized deduction).</p>

2

<p>*- It was a war to get our finances for an NPC (and she hasn’t given me exact numbers, just “what she remembers”). She doesn’t want me involved or “to worry about the money” at all.</p>

<ul>
<li>But at the same time, she says I have to pay for everything myself, yet offers $20,000 and herself as a cosigner on the private loans.*</li>
</ul>

<p>Oh brother! (or mother!)</p>

<p>What is your major and your stats. It’s fine to apply to these schools and see what happens, but if you don’t ALSO have a couple of financial safeties then you may find yourself or your family deep in debt.</p>

<p>What schools are your financial safeties? Those are schools that you know FOR SURE that you have ALL costs covered without having to resort to Sallie mae, Plus, etc. These are schools that you know FOR SURE that you’ll get enough merit, grants, etc, to have all costs covered.</p>

<p>How much is your family going to contribute each year? It sounds like nothing other than $5k per year from savings??? Is that right? If they can’t afford to contribute, then they likely can’t afford Plus loans. Otherwise they likely would have some money to contribute NOW.</p>

<p>What is your major?</p>

<p>What do you like about your “dream schools”?</p>

<p>BA/MAT…Education? Well, then DEFINITELY do NOT take on debt. Your early salary won’t likely be high enough to pay the debt back WHILE paying living expenses.</p>

3

<p>I am “hung up” on private loans, too, so in that respect I would agree with your parents. It sounds like you are taking a sensible approach to all this, but here are a couple of suggestions:</p>

<p>1 - Do your in-state public schools actually constitute a financial safety? The sticker price may be lower, but you need good fits that you can afford with just Stafford loans, along with the $20k your parents have saved up. It does sound like those in-state public schools are good fits for you.</p>

<p>2 - Can you find some additional almost-Dream Privates where your stats would be at the high end? Some out-of-state public schools may also fall into that category, if they give stats-based aid. These constitute financial reaches, but you need the financial safety in place first so that you can make decisions from a position of strength.</p>

<p>Good luck</p>

4

<p>Wow, thank you for the responses!</p>

<p>The in-state publics are financial safeties. If I live on campus, I can pay for undergrad with the $5k my parents contribute + my own federal loans. If I commuted (the commute is at least 40 minutes on a good day) I could pay for undergrad with just federal loans and no parent contribution, including transportation costs.</p>

<p>My stats are a 3.4 UW/4.4 W (top 55%) and 1280/1920 SAT. My major would be a double major in history and education. It does really stink that there isn’t a huge demand for history teachers, though, so I sometimes ask myself if I should major in elementary education instead.</p>

<p>I love Dream Private College because of its location (small college in the big city [and I love the city]), size (2x the size of high school, but still very small), the 5 year master’s program, and when I visited I met current students and potential future classmates, and they all were the kinds of people that I want to be and see myself getting to know - ones who are interested in leadership and initiative (a huge point of the college). </p>

<p>And it’s single-sex.</p>

<p>I don’t know if it helps, but the average salary for high school teachers in my state is over $60k/yr. Most teachers make more than that, though, especially in the really rich towns near me.</p>

5

<p>If you want to teach, it’s important to attend a college in the state you want to teach in after graduation. This is because teacher certification varies from state-to-state and reciprocity is more honored in the abstract than in the reality. </p>

<p>A MAT will not be especially useful in finding a first teaching job and may actually be a negative. (You cost more to hire with a Masters than a individual with a BA/BS/BEd.)</p>

6

<p>Indeed, which is why most of the colleges I chose are in my own state.</p>

<p>As for the MAT vs. Bachelor’s, since i’d have to get my Master’s within 5 years of initial licensure, if I end up getting a job right out of college I guess I would end up taking classes at the same time and/or during the summer.</p>

<p>That really doesn’t seem like such a bad idea, now that I think about it. Although, Dream Private College and That Other State’s Flagship ONLY offer education degrees as 5-year programs.</p>

<p>Also, by virtue of wanting to be a history major, I think I might be making myself unhireable.</p>

7

<p>You wont’ be earning $60k as a newish hire. You’ll be paying back loans while earning LESS. AND, earning $60k is NOT enough to justfiy big loans.</p>

<p>Really rich towns that pay more ALSO have very high cost of living. That means that a LOT of your income will be going towards rent, taxes, and other living expenses.</p>

<p>An education major is not worth much in loans. So, not necessary.</p>

<p>When you’re employed and your colleagues are earning the same as you are, but they don’t have the debt, you’ll soon reqret that a big chunk of your take home pay is going towards debt. Your colleagues will be buying homes, etc, while you’re tied down to debt.</p>

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<p>Assuming you already meet licensure requirements, many school districts will reimburse you for tuition expenses once you’re hired. (Which means, your employer will pay for most of your MEd.)</p>

<p>That route is a whole lot less expensive than paying for an extra year of full time tuition plus room & board.</p>

<p>And as M2K points out, while the average teacher salary in your local district may be $60K, that’s not what a new hire makes.</p>

<p>Edit: I just looked at my local public school district’s salary schedule. A first year teacher (with bachelor or masters) makes only about 2/3rd of the average teacher salary. So make that adjustment in your calculations. Take whatever the average teacher’s salary is and lower it by a third to get an estimate for what a new hire will make.</p>

9

<p>Mmm.</p>

<p>I guess it’ll mostly depend on whether I end up with a full ride at Private Dream College, then.</p>

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<p>First of all, congratulations in doing all of the footwork you have for your college choices. You’re ahead of a lot of other students and in doing all of this, have brought a lot of important issues to the forefront.</p>

<p>I want to tell you as a parent, that we are not perfect as you may have already figured out. We also may have things we do not want to share with anyone, including our children, maybe, especially with our children. It’s not fair, I know as you are trying to make plans, and you need to konw those particulars in order to plan. Also just because people are parents, does not mean they know a lot or much of anything about how some systems work, and this whole college thing is fraught with myths and misinformation. Also, facing some of these things is difficult.</p>

<p>For whatever reason, you mother is loathe at the time to share the family financials with you. And it’s her business. She doesn’t want to take out loans, That’s her business too. She and your dad are under no requirement to pay ANYTHING for college. This is not a must do thing. My opinion, from reading your post is that there are some issues that are making it difficult, and maybe unwise for them to commit to any payments or loans for any reasons for something as expensive as college. They may be “all spent up”. They may have terrible credit. They may be financial trouble. And they don’t want to share any of this info with you. There really is no reason for you to know more than what they are willing to spend each year for college.</p>

<p>Given all of this uncertainty, you should be looking at some alternatives nearby where you can commute. One thing that looks pretty good is that you probably are guaranteed 3 squares and cot in style. Probably a lot more than that. So some nearby options where you can commute should be on your list. This is not such a unusual thing to do. Everyone should have a couple of these type of schools that are sure to take you, affordable to you and can give you a good education. I wrote a theread “How Some Families Do It” about my cousin’s journey this past year, and he had several local options that would have been very good choices. One of his “dream” schools came through with almost enough to make it a go, and his family and he worked it out so it’s where he now is. Not an easy thing, he is finding out. When you have to live day in and day out, close to the edge financially, it is stressful.</p>

<p>Our family made a solid commitment to our son, but still he looked at some local alternatives and was delighted to win a near full tuition scholarship from a local school. He did not go there, but had he done so, he would have been in good company with a lot of his friends and people he knows. It’s tough for him at his choice school, an OOS public where he hardly knows anyone and when some minor things went off in succession, he saw how quickly the money can go and how plan can go asunder. He would have had a lot more leeway living at home and had extra money to so many things without a thought. </p>

<p>You probably should be looking for a job for weekends and holidays. Ask your parent to open an account for you to reimburse them for your expenses this year and stash what you can in there and ask them to put what they can as well. Better it’s saved in their name and SSN because FAFSA will hit you with a big 20% straight onto the EFC if it’s in yours. Also when you have your parents actually fill out the FAFSA, teill them to pick a day after the mortgage/rent is paid, and when the accounts are not flush, though their percent of assets is much less. But if you are serious about committing to college, you should start saving to pay for with work both during this school year and over the summer. </p>

<p>You can borrow $5500 in your name through Direct Loans freshman year. Though some NPCs are accurate, I’ve found that many for schools with merit money and that do not always meet full need, the numbers are averages and unless you are in the upper echelon of applicants test score wise, you may not get what is listed as your cost. </p>

<p>Basically, if you and your parents can save up a nice amount this year, and you commit to working 10-20 hours a week at school, and you take out that loan and if your parents can take out a matching amount, if they can come up with about $5K from somewhere and IF your EFC is met, there are some possibilities there. If not, you need to look at some local possibilities.</p>

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<p>I don’t have much to add to the good advice you’ve already gotten. Just wanted to add my congratulations on the really good research you’ve done - it’s impressive! And, although I appreciate the warning about your “LONG” post, I was pleased to find it so well written and well organized. I wish all student posts were so easy to read!</p>

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<p>I guess it’ll mostly depend on whether I end up with a full ride at Private Dream College, then.</p>

<p>That’s not likely going to happen, right? Your stats aren’t super, super high for the school (like top 1%), right?</p>

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<p>It might, it might not. Anyone can apply regardless of GPA, and you have to write two essays for it. I’m going to at least apply, because I have a 0% chance if I don’t.</p>

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<p>I don’t see the value in going OOS for a teaching degree. Every state has many opportunities for in-state students to get these degrees, as every state needs teachers.</p>

<p>So you are getting two separate degrees: a teaching degree and a degree in history? That does not seem doable in four years, since a teaching degree is typically got in the school of education and a history degree is earned in the school of liberal arts. These schools tend to have a lot of extra requirements in each school, with lots of methods courses in the school of education and a typically large number of credits to be taken in the school of liberal arts in order to become a history major. Are you sure that you have investigated the requirements for that double major for each of the six schools you are considering. I would be shocked if you could get that double major combination in just four years at all six schools. Your dream major sounds like an all-female college (since it does not match the description of Wabash and Hampden Sydney, the only all males I know of in the US); these tend to be small schools with very rigid programs.</p>

<p>You say being a history major will hurt you. In order to get the teaching degree, however, you would probably have to be certified to teach “social studies”, which includes history. Are you being certified as qualified to teach social studies alone, or just history. In most states, it would be social studies as the certified teaching area.</p>

<p>I don’t see the value of a five year MAT program if your parents have to take on significant PLUS loans. MAT you could easily get in summers after you get your teaching job. Again, states overwhelmingly require masters degrees for their teachers and provide many, many affordable avenues for them to get the graduate credits after being hired and during summers at public schools.</p>

<p>What about community college the first year or first year and one-half. You would be able to get a lot of your liberal arts requirements out of the way much cheaper than going OOS. Then transfer to school of education for professional courses and remaining content courses. Worry about the MAT after you get a job and are able to pay for it yourself and know that you want a career in teaching.</p>

15

<p>You need to find out what the real job prospect situation is in your area. In many areas of the country, there is a huge, years’ long glut of qualified, credentialed teachers. Particularly for things like English and social studies. My daughter is finishing her master’s in special education and has a degree in history with 7-12 certification, along with very good experience, but she couldn’t find a job until a CC member helped her out. D looked aggressively all over the country (she has no debt and has plenty of money saved), and there are just no jobs. I can’t stress to you enough how hard it is right now to get a job as a teacher and how hard your life would be if you had debt and couldn’t get a job.</p>

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<p>

Many states will only provide certification above the elementary school level with a degree in a content field. In other words, there is no education degree for adolescent education. It is a degree in a field with required education courses included. It can be tough to finish in four years, but not impossible by any means. For social studies, it is generally a degree in history including a required sequence of courses (American history, European history, non-western history, ancient history, economics) and then whatever education courses are required by the state, including student teaching.</p>

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<p>Indeed. I’ve been doing a lot of thinking about that and other things lately. A rep from one of the state schools came today and I was talking to her about education, and she said if I were to go into secondary, i’d major in history and minor in secondary education, which can be done in 4 years.</p>

<p>I would say that a job here is hard to come by, unfortunately. At my school they’ve had anywhere from 200-400 applicants for one job, but my school is really highly ranked.</p>

<p>And it is a very sinking thing for me to realize. My mother’s rationalization is that “every field [except nursing and engineering] is hurting as far as jobs go, so it doesn’t really matter what you end up doing.” I can’t really agree with that 100% based on reflecting on the feedback in this thread. If I had to, I would relocate.</p>

<p>Unfortunately i’m stuck in one of those crappy situations where i’m not poor or smart enough to get enough money (merit or need-based) to be able to go anywhere 100% debt-free, even if I commuted three hours a day (and that is really what the commute is back and forth, with traffic) to the closest state school. </p>

<p>Even CC isn’t cheap - I ran the numbers for my local CC, and it would cost me $11k/yr to go there, and they don’t even have secondary education or a specific history major. I could do gen eds there but if I were to transfer somewhere else, my FA would take a hit. I honestly cannot understand how this is a better solution in my case (and I apologize that I am ranting right now). </p>

<p>All CC’s in my state have transfer programs with the state schools/flagship but not for secondary education and not a specified one for history.</p>

<p>I’m really just frustrated/upset with myself that i’m getting my hopes up about “the whole college experience” (of which I was not hoping for an overly extravagant one) that i’m not going to be able to afford.</p>

18

<p>If a student is not going to be eligible for significant merit aid, it almost always is more cost-effective to start at the local community college, and then transfer into a state U after completing the full associates degree. Even if there is no articulation agreement for your major, that plan may be the best for you. Read through what each public U posts on its website about how they handle transfers with AA or AS degrees from the various community colleges. Find out if your state has an official list of transferring courses. For example, here in Maryland all of the pre-approved transfer credits are available online [A</a> Little help here, Please](<a href=“http://artweb.usmd.edu/]A”>http://artweb.usmd.edu/) If something like that is available, you can work out pretty quickly which history classes at your CC would be worth taking, and which wouldn’t be.</p>

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<p>And sorry about the funny name for the link. I tried to fix it but it still names itself.</p>

20

<p>I’m looking at it right now (my state’s agreements, that is) and checking it against what the schools say, and there’s no mention of how aid will be impacted or how I could calculate it. At best I would get a $1400/yr tuition waiver if I finished my AA.</p>