<p>So where does that responsibility end? Should we sue the alcohol distillers for making the weapon of choice? Or shall we sue the school for not having more thorough oversight?</p>
<p>What happened to self-responsibility in America?</p>
<p>the fact of the matter is that it comes down to that individual chose to go to that party and they chose to drink in the first place.. they should of known better than to put themself in that situation.</p>
<p>everybody always points the finger at somebody else. i do feel bad for the people who have died, and for their friends and family.. however they chose to put themself in that situation the moment they walked in that door and took a sip of alcohol.</p>
<p>UCLAri, you're entitled to your opinion and I respect your call for self-responsibility. I would, however, encourage you to read the circumstances of this case with a bit more attention, and maybe spend some time to understand the underlying message the parents and friends of Gordie are trying to send. This was not a mere party, but an organized hazing accident gone terribly wrong. </p>
<p>I could point out that a number of laws have been created to protect individuals -who may as you said lose self-control- from their own lack of judgment. For instance, it is illegal to serve alcohol to minors or continue to provide alcohol to consumers who are visibly intoxicated. I believe that prosecutors have successfully brought charges against bartenders, restaurants, or even private citizens. Further, there are a number of laws about providing assistance to persons in danger. In this case, fraternity "brothers" thought it was appropriate to use Sharpies to write on the face and the body of one person rather than calling for help. </p>
<p>No matter how you look at it, this was a case of ignorance and lack of concern of human life and dignity. A complete tragedy as it involved minors doing harm to other minors without any kind of supervision or guidance. Our system based on self-responsibility did fail the perpetrators as much as the victims. Gordie died, but the fraternity members will have to live a long time with the heavy burden of their mistakes. </p>
<p>However, making sure that future tragedies can be minimized if not eradicated through spreading the correct message is a lot more important than assigning blame. And I believe that this would be Gordie's most cherished wish, as well as his parents' and friends'.</p>
<p>xiggi,</p>
<p>So one isolated or otherwise rare incident is a reasonable indictment of all fraternities?</p>
<p>sure it's a case of ignorance.. they shouldn't of done that. however he shouldn't of put himself in that situation. just as uclari said, you can blame the fraternity for how they acted, you can blame the alcohol company for creating the alcohol, you can even blame the parents for not getting it clear to the kid that you're not supposed to drink as a minor.. but it all comes down to the fact that kids go to parties in the first place.. and most times they drink while they are there.</p>
<p>and like i said before, don't get me wrong.. i cant stand frats.. i think frat parties are completely lame.. however i think it's on the individual as much as it is on the group they are taking part of.</p>
<p>UCLAri, you display an astounding ignorance of the issue by calling this an ISOLATED incident. Do yourself a favor and research the issue before posting such a naive comment. </p>
<p>And for the record, my position on fraternities is well documented on the many threads on College Confidential.</p>
<p>xiggi,</p>
<p>Thanks for the ad hominem. It makes me feel all warm and fuzzy inside. Look, I know that alcohol poisoning occurs with relative frequency in fraternity situations, but deaths are still overwhelmingly few. It's not like kids are dropping like flies.</p>
<p>I can see how someone who is a rational intelligent person could get swept up in a frat initiation and not realize what the consequences could be. Please, everyone read Gordy's site and you will see what a fabulous person he was and if someone like that can get sucked in then anyone can.</p>
<p>Just because someone is a fabulous person doesn't mean that they can't have lapses in personal judgement. </p>
<p>I mean, I did some stupid stuff in college, and I'm largely a bright, cautious guy. Hell, the other week, I ended up spending a morning hunched over the toilet after a night of karaoke and beer. That was just dumb and my fault (I drank a bit too much, and I knew it.)</p>
<p>This is like Michael Moore blaming K-Mart for selling bullets used in Columbine. Well, not really, but I still think that the whole segment was dumb.</p>
<p>i'm just speaking in general terms here, but i just would like to know why a rational intellegent person is joining a frat in the first place... i mean, i would assume that the individual at least attended a party before deciding to pledge.. which means that person was fully aware that drinking occurs at the frat... yet they chose to join and be part of it anyway. and if that person does survive through initiation and becomes a member of the frat, then that person is now one of the people who is there providing alcohol to minors and throwing parties for people to come to. i think the whole rational intelligent person thing goes out the window when someone chooses to join a frat like that. </p>
<p>again.. that's just my own personal opinion based on the fact that i don't like frats... and no offense to anyone who has a son in a frat or anything like that... i'm just speaking generally.. i know not all frat's are bad, and i know not all people in frats drink/don't care for other people.. however just speaking generally here i don't understand how they are considered rational intelligent people..</p>
<p>My ex was in a Frat at Penn State and he told numerous stories about hazing - none of it good and I saw some PTSD. Something had to do with Blue Cheese and he would not tell me - it was too mortifying. Butter as well. He told a story about a frat brother who had a bowel movement in the middle of the floor of the dorm and then passed out and didn't remember doing it. My ex was an alcoholic and an addict after college and it caused a great deal of pain for all concerned. He transferred to Emerson and graduated from there and is successful in his field yet he still struggles with alcoholism and PTSD. </p>
<p>I will not be supportive of a frat for my S. If he chooses to do so I will direct him to Gordy's site. (my ex is still pro frat despite all that happened)</p>
<p>In my experience, social fraternitites are a bad thing. My brother barely graduated because of the constant partying, drunkeness and disarray in the house where he lived. That frat was eventually kicked off of the campus, but there are many others to take its place. I think the fraternity idea is a good one (small supportive social group), but the rowdiness can easily get out of hand.</p>
<p>I agree that no one forces these kids to drink and act the way they do at these frats, but there is an element of ?? institutionalised condoning of that behavior within the Greek system. Anyone know what I mean? (I don't think I'm explaining myself properly on this one)</p>
<p>Yes, dke, I agree with you. I think "that" behavior is expected and tolerated by colleges to a large degree. Frats have to be pretty extreme to be removed from campus.</p>
<p>back to the original post--
my S, who is a freshman, decided to pledge a frat. It wasn't something either my husband nor I had any direct experience with but we knew it would be a possibility since there is a large greek presence on campus and, when visiting, he spent time with a really terrific sophomore who brought him to his frat etc. As it turns out, many of my S's hs friends pledged frats at their various colleges. </p>
<p>We spent time talking with our S about the risks involved; the possibility of hazing, the dangers of drinking excessively, the need to be "smart" and not get into situations that he is not comfortable with or could be dangerous. I have told him over and over about alcohol poisoning. Granted, my S is a pretty cautious kid, not a risk taker, generally reasonable and rational. He's always made pretty good decisions for himself. </p>
<p>I have to say that so far, so good. At first he seemed a little overwhelmed by the time commitment involved and the fact that he was more or less at the beck and call of the older "brothers". He hasn't told us much about the pledging so I can't say what he's been made to do (other than cleaning a lot and being the designated driver on weekends) but he seems pretty happy now. He is a kid who likes the camaraderie of the frat. At his school, frats are non-residential, so the house is a place where he can go and watch a game, play poker, hang out. He's had to get involved in more activities (frat intramurals, charity events etc.) and they even require study times every day which has helped him organize himself a bit. There are definitely a lot of parties too (and I know they drink a lot, though my S tells me hasn't overdone it) and an overnight formal coming up--I can only hope and pray that he will continue to use good judgment and stay safe.</p>
<p>I am totally against hazing and any activities that are dangerous, humiliating etc. The school claims to be on top of this but I"m sure it still goes on. I guess my only advice is to know your own kid, keep the lines of communication open and continue to express your own values, concerns etc. Then you pray everything goes OK. I just sent my S the website Xiggi posted as a reminder of how things can go terribly wrong, terribly fast.</p>
<p>The problem is the influence of the "group mentality." People will do things in a group that they would never do alone or with a friend or two. </p>
<p>The frat is responsible because first, they aren't allowed to haze. Secondly, they are making the action a condition for initiation. Third, they don't specify that they will be making such requirements during Rush. </p>
<p>These hazing incidents usually occur after the person has gone thru a semester of pledging, has "bonded" with the others and wants to complete initiation.</p>
<p>I am not saying that the victim has zero responsibility. I am just saying that he never should have been put in that situation in the first place. The frat is responsible for introducing the situation.</p>
<p>he wouldn't of been put in the situation in the first place had he chose not to join... someone please tell me one person who doesn't know the risks of joining a frat before joining. everyone hears the horror stories every day... </p>
<p>i'm not saying it's all on the kid, but to think they could of avoided it by just simply not going.... you know? </p>
<p>i mean, i've been to/had plenty of parties with tons of people, all of whom are friends with each other.. we all have each others back. if someone looks like they are drinking too much we stop them and take care of them for the night.. or the next day.. or however long till they are feeling better again. we find a place in another part of the house where they can lay down and rest and we check on them constantly to make sure everything is okay. there are plenty of times where a dozen people or so spend the night... i just don't think this type of thing happens at a frat.. partially because the people throwing the party barely know the kids coming to the party, and it's hard for them to keep an eye on everyone... but also the people in charge of the frat's don't know their members well enough to know what their limit is and when to stop them from drinking... </p>
<p>like i said before, i do feel sorry for the kids who have passed away and for their family and friends, however i think you have to remember that they wouldn't be in that situation in the first place had they simply not gone.</p>
<p>Xiggi..just sent my S (who also just pledged) and about three other college bound kids your excellent website. I didn't feel I needed to "forbid" my S to attend Rush parties because I was so sure he would be briefly dazzled and then bored enough to withdraw but I was W-R-O-N-G even though he totally skipped that entire status, drinking and party scene in high school with ease. I also sent emails stating undiplomatic things like frats are anachronistic..sort of like having to explain for the rest of your life you were in say..a beauty pageant, refused to pay any of his dues and heartily criticized his choice. We parents are children of the sixties and seventies and cherished independence and freedom, but my S stood his ground. He so far really loves his frat and feels their fine GPRs and revamped pledging systems are to be commended. I know many of his fellow pledges and met their parents and liked many of them a whole lot but still would have preferred he work through the awkward semesters as an independent till mid year as a sophomore. Anyway..we shall see. The most positive thing I see so far is the relationships with upperclassmen which seem to mean a lot to him re guidance and support. However, don't schools like Swarthmore deliberately set up freshmen with upperclassmen as mentors in dorms.as do many other colleges? So..it is never too early to have a heart to heart with your own kids about to pledge or to stay independent. My kid knows how we feel, but we are also in a listening mode and hoping he has good judgment even when in a group.</p>
<p>FOr once I agree with Xiggi, rare indeed. Thank you for your excellent posts and the link...</p>
<p>Some hazing rituals ie torture:</p>
<p>caning
water bingeing
freezing rooms</p>
<p>And remember, once you start drinking, you are much more vulerable to doing really dumbe stuff and you would hope that those you are with wouldn't put your life in danger by giving you more and more, and the more and more you imbide the less judgement you have</p>
<p>See, most people when they binge drink don't have others propping them up, hitting them, looking them in freezing rooms</p>
<p>I mean if my friend was smashed, I wouldn't give them more alcohol through a funnel, but hey thats just me</p>
<p>I guess I wouldn't want to be part of a group that thinks hurting others to prove loyalty and to break them is a good group</p>
<p>Many Frats are fine, but why do people tolerate such idiocy to belong</p>
<p>DOn't get it</p>