Parents of the HS Class of 2013

Parents of Class of 20xx
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<p>Well, you’re right that SAT Subject Test scores aren’t reported in the Common Data Set. But that’s because the Common Data Set is a data set that’s designed for all colleges to report, and since so few colleges require SAT Subject Tests it wouldn’t make sense to include it in the CDS. But that doesn’t mean they’re unimportant at the handful of schools that require or “recommend” or “strongly encourage” them.</p>

<p>I also think you’re missing the larger point about the role of test scores, GPAs, or any other individual factor in admission to the most selective colleges and universities. Sure, these schools reject most people with perfect 800s. They also reject most valedictorians and most people with perfect 4.0 GPAs. But that doesn’t mean test scores, GPAs, and class ranks are unimportant; they’re among the most important factors. It’s just that they have so many extremely well qualified candidates by these criteria that they end up choosing among them on the basis of other factors, giving preferences to legacies, recruited athletes, and URMs, for example, or throwing in geographic and socioeconomic diversity factors, celebrity status, artistic talent, and the like, or going for the applicant with the unusually clever and attention-getting (but not over-the-top) essay. Like it or not, that’s the system. But it doesn’t mean test scores are unimportant. They’re pretty much a prerequisite to admission to the most selective schools, especially for the “unhooked” applicant. But they’re not determinative, in the sense that even with a perfect GPA, class rank, and test scores, you still might be passed over in favor of someone the college deems more “interesting” to add to the mix, or to achieve institutional diversity goals.</p>

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<p>Kelowna-wonderful! You deserve to brag.</p>

<p>After just going through this college process with my DS and planning through my DD, I have no regrets for making my son take a lot of AP classes. I agree that it isn’t a big factor in the application process, but I think it is important prep for college. I really want to ensure that my kids are prepared for college. I remember when I went to Rice as an undergraduate and I had never heard of AP. Even then many of my peers had either taken the AP class or a similar one at their private high schools. Coming from a public school, I was grossly under prepared. </p>

<p>Getting a lower GPA in high school because of AP classes is more important to me for my kids due to that experience. If you look at Ivy League schools, you will find that many students have taken the AP but are still taking the class due to stringent AP policy of the school. At state schools, many students come in with a ton of credits that allow them to skip the weedout classes.</p>

<p>My DS did extremely well in his application process albeit with a lower GPA and I couldn’t be happier. I know that by challenging him with those classes, he is well prepared for college in the fall.</p>

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<p>Kelowna: Congratulations!!! Awesome! </p>

<p>Unfortunately, DD has not recieved her ACT scores yet. :frowning: We are still waiting…I don’t expect she will be anywhere near perfect. She wanted to take it to see if she should concentrate on the ACT or the SAT this year. DS did SAT so I’m in unfamiliar territory. </p>

<p>After much debating and changing her mind a million times, DD has decided to take 3 not 4 APs next year: Lang, US History, and Bio. Due to scheduling difficulties she was considering no bio and to take AP Chem and AP Environmental. She decided Bio with forensics as a second science sounded better to her. We are all happy. This means that painting and drawing fit into her schedule now. Maybe she will be an architect? </p>

<p>We are visiting Cornell and Binghamton this year. Maybe Colgate and Hamilton too, but that is for DS12 and he hasn’t decided yet whether he wants to visit yet. </p>

<p>As for APs and tests and what not. I think we sometimes lose site of the fact that our kids take these classes to get an education, not to get into a college. Certainly, colleges like to see you take hard classes and do well in the classes and the subject tests for those classes. It is a different “game” for the most selective colleges or universities. You really do need to do well on everything. But doing well on everything only allows you entry into the pool of 7,000 canidates that they will then select their new freshman class. It is a lottery at that point. Sometimes you win, sometimes you lose.</p>

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<p>geogirl - my D1 applied to architecture programs this past year so if your D is moving in that direction I can help. Architecture is a tough major with a 7-8% acceptance rate into the program. My D got into all her schools but not into all the arch programs…and when you look at the programs, they are all different. So PM me if you want more info…</p>

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<p>Kelowana - Regarding your son’s reluctance to visit schools…I am having the same issue with D2. Her friends are tracking to stateu for many reasons - family preference, finances, grades, etc. but my D is able to have many more choices. So, I am pulling the “parent’s choice” card and telling her that she has to visit…</p>

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<p>Kelowna- congratulations to you and your son…Great acheivement.</p>

<p>My son is not very happy to visit colleges as well. He thinks he can get any info he wants online. I am waiting for the end of junior year to see what happens. Things may change. He has a pretty good idea about the colleges and has many friends he talks to regulary who is in some of the good programs or are waiting to join. He has taken some enrichment classes at one of the colleges here in Boston. That is all for the time being.
I dont know if I should be worried about it.</p>

<p>And, his report card is online today. He has done well in all the subjects except in English- a big surprise there… I hope he learned his lesson and will be willing to work hard with reading assignments this summer. He seems to be dull after seeing the report card.</p>

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<p>And I have another question: I read here that AP scores do not matter much in the application process, so my question is, wouldn’t colleges look at the AP score if the applicant has done an AP class, say in junior year? Why wouldn’t the college want to know the AP Score?</p>

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<p>AP tends to be used for placement purposes and a measure of rigor. Once accepted then they ask you to send the AP scores.</p>

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Bingo, then it’s not important. If it is then it should make a difference.</p>

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<p>Your post is misleading. For example for Yale, if you submit the ACT, then off course you don’t need to submit SAT subject tests.
As for UPenn, it does require SAT subject tests, see quote below.

[Penn</a> Admissions: Required Tests](<a href=“http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/applying/testing.php]Penn”>http://www.admissions.upenn.edu/applying/testing.php)</p>

<p>As for USC, it does required for some students
<a href=“http://www.usc.edu/admission/undergraduate/apply/fresh_standards.html[/url]”>http://www.usc.edu/admission/undergraduate/apply/fresh_standards.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Brown requires 2 subject tests, unless you submit ACT
<a href=“Undergraduate Admission | Brown University”>Undergraduate Admission | Brown University;

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<p>Same with Duke, 2 subject tests unless you submit ACT
<a href=“http://www.admissions.duke.edu/jump/applying/apply_testing.html[/url]”>http://www.admissions.duke.edu/jump/applying/apply_testing.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p&gt;

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<p>Those are just a few colleges that you wrote not needing SAT subject tests. For California students who are mostly SAT centric, you must submit 2 SAT subject tests. To say otherwise is misleading.</p>

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<p>Kelowna - congrats!!!</p>

<p>This talk of subject tests, APs, etc has made me feel more secure in D2’s approach - she’s taking harder classes in subjects she is interested in, pushing herself in some others, and taking the standard course for subjects she doesn’t want to struggle in as they aren’t her strong suit. It’s a balanced approach for her and we’ll see how it works out but she’s not aiming for the top schools, and she’s staying true to her personality and learning style (which I have realized makes for a happier her and thus a happier us, LOL). So I may not push her to take subject tests unless she decides too and we’ll try both the ACT and SAT (D1 was better on ACT and I wished we had just focused on that earlier) to see where she best lands.</p>

<p>D1 is at UVA and loves it and it challenges her and she is thriving in the engineering department but that is so far removed from the experience D2 will be looking for in a college that this is an entirely new approach for us but it’s been nice to let her be the guide and be willing to keep the faith and see how her journey ends.</p>

<p>On her own she is finding opportunities and things that work for her, I expect she’ll have options she loves come admissions time.</p>

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<p>This year is the first year at the UC’s that the subject tests will not be required. It will be interesting to see what that does to the admission process.</p>

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<p>Ah I see AP courses, College visits and SAT II exams are the current topic of Conversations…interesting because the first two are hot topics in our house too.</p>

<p>DD took an AP course as a Freshman, last yr, this yr as a Soph/Jr she will take one AP course along with 2 dual enrollment courses then 3 honors courses. Next yr, as a Senior she will take all Dual enrollment courses except 1, which she will take at the High School. I have to say I am not a fan of AP courses, I hear a lot of it is a College Level Course taught in a College manor, which I disagree with. In College you don’t have summer assignments, or tons of busy work and out lining Chapters…if the student is capable of learning at a college level then let them decide how to learn the material, whether or not they need outlines or flash cards. sorry for the rant.</p>

<p>DD will be doing a few College visits this summer, UNC-Wilmington, UNC-Chapel Hill and Duke, there will eventually be visits to FIU, UMiami and Rollins College. Up until the last month or so she had not really shown a lot of interest and was willing to let me do most of the research…I was getting frustrated. We now have a method, I narrow down the choices because she was overwhelmed with all of the info and then she decides which to visit. I do have to say DD already has a firm idea of where she wants to go, UNC-Wilmington and major in Marine Biology, she attend Marine Science camp there every summer and is very comfortable on the campus. My husband and I are trying to get her to keep her options open.</p>

<p>SAT II’s, I had not given them any thought, so I will definitely have to research and see if any of DD’s choices require subjects test.</p>

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<p>Thanks MomofBoston - I think she is leaning more towards “green” energy engineering, but she might swing back to a architech degree once she gets back into art. She wasn’t able to fit it into her schedule this year. We will see. She keeps saying “environmental engineering”, but I don’t think she wants waste water treatment plants, I think she wants more like “green” design or green engineering. Hopefully her one week intro to “real” engineering at camp will help her find her focus.</p>

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<p>Huh??? How is what I said misleading? I said “Yale doesn’t require SAT Subject Tests if you submit the ACT.” You say no, that’s misleading, because “for Yale, if you submit the ACT, then of course you don’t need to submit SAT Subject Tests.” But that’s exactly what I said, except that you inverted the two clauses in a way that doesn’t change the meaning.</p>

<p>I then said Penn, Brown, and Duke, among others, had the same policy as Yale. You then quote from their policies which confirm that I’m absolutely, positively, 100% right, and you claim that somehow proves me wrong.</p>

<p>Sorry, DrGoogle, you’re not making any sense here.</p>

<p>Perhaps the confusion lies here: a number of highly selective colleges DO require SAT Subject Tests whether you submit the SAT Reasoning Test or the ACT; at those schools, there’s just no getting around Subject Tests. So there’s no “of course” about Yale having a different policy, and requiring Subject Tests only if you submit the SAT Reasoning Test but not if you submit the ACT; that’s very different from Harvard, Columbia, Cornell, and Dartmouth, among others, where EVERY applicant must submit SAT Subject Tests. I would say the colleges that require Subject Tests in all cases are the only colleges where Subject Tests are truly mandatory, because at Yale, Brown, Duke, etc., it’s easy enough NOT to submit any Subject Test scores at all, or never even to take any Subject Tests, simply by submitting the ACT in lieu of the SAT Reasoning Test. You, on the other hand, apparently want to say Subject Tests are “required” if they’re required for ANY category of applicant. And I think your way of putting it is far more misleading than mine.</p>

<p>As for USC requiring Subject Tests from homeschoolers and graduates of unaccredited high schools: yes, of course. In fact that’s standard policy at a lot of colleges that don’t generally require Subject Tests, including Bowdoin which is entirely test-optional for most applicants, but requires homeschoolers to submit multiple Subject Tests. I certainly was aware of that when I produced the post that you’re so keen on criticizing, but I decided for the sake of economy to limit my remarks to the school’s main policy, applicable to probably well over 90% of its applicants, rather than reproducing every nuance of every school’s policy.</p>

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<p>Exactly Geogirl! My D’s did/are both taking AP classes because they are strong students & they want to be surrounded by other strong students, as well as wanting the “best” teachers. Even if they called the class “super honors” or “English on Steroids” and dismissed the AP label, they’d still enroll in that class. </p>

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<p>Donivrian: don’t forget that a lot of schools don’t require students to take the AP test at the end of the course. I think we may have discussed in on this thread many pages ago; if not there are other threads on CC about school policy about requiring the AP test, paying for the AP test etc.</p>

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<p>Let me clarify. The original statement I stated is that few schools in the top 50 do not require subject tests. Then you list a bunch of schools in the top 50 that do not require subject tests BUT only if you submit ACT scores. That is why I think it’s misleading. Most kids I know especially in CA, take SAT reasoning, partially because they probably need the SAT scores to qualify for NMF. Students take the ACT only if they think they have a better chance of improving the scores over the SAT. So if you are submitting the SAT you have to submit the required SAT subject tests. You can’t not submit SAT 1 and not submit SAT subject tests. That is not optional.</p>

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<p>If you take the SAT Reasoning test than you must take the SAT Subject tests. I’m more SAT centric so I don’t really follow the ACT. Maybe you are more aware of the difference if your student take the ACT. So it depends on which standardized test your student is most likely going to take.</p>

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<p>Kel - Congrats! I am so jealous that you have completed a huddle and don’t need to think about the testing. Your son should be very proud of himself.</p>

<p>Longsx8 – My son very much agrees with you on the AP stuff. The summer work and graded homework are a real point of frustration for him. He has issued with busywork if he can master the material. UNC-CH and Rollins is on our list too (we have a very long list). Not sure of the humid weather. My son is ADD (inattentive) and I’ve heard good things about Rollins support. I don’t think any of the schools you listed require SAT II/subject.</p>

<p>Finally got our report card – 7 Core Academics for the year has 2 B+ which may be a problem for those tippy top LACs my kid likes. All the rest are in the A range. He got an A- in his AP Govt course. </p>

<p>I’m calculating his UW GPA as 3.76 and weighted 4.07 (includes Art), but not sure I’m doing it correctly. Our report cards only show letter grades and then you have to look at the Handbook to correspond. After all my time here on CC I think the GPA really is not the end all be all as I see all the crazy weighted systems, etc. I just want the kid to get as many As as possible and let the chips fall where they may.</p>

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<p>Longsx8 - just wanted to say I myself skipped my junior year and graduated in 3 years - it was definitely the right decision for me but I did tell my kids not to think about it! :smiley: However for them it wouldn’t be the right decision but I absolutely never regretted it!</p>

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<p>To be clear, I listed exactly 7 colleges where Subject Tests are unnecessary if the applicant submits the ACT in lieu of the SAT Reasoning Test—and I stated clearly and unambiguously that was the policy at those 7 schools. I then went on to list an additional 26 colleges where Subject Tests are entirely optional, even for students submitting the SAT Reasoning Test. And I could list at least another couple of dozen top-50 LACs or universities where the SAT is entirely optional. Nothing “misleading” about that, unless you just misread my post.</p>

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<p>Not so. Roughly 6 times as many people take the SAT Reasoning Test as Subject Tests. Most of those who take the Reasoning Test have no need to take take Subject Tests, including many applying to top-50 LACs and top-50 universities. It all depends on the schools they’re applying to. Apart from the UC system, there are perhaps 12-15 colleges that require Subject Tests of all applicants, and perhaps another dozen or so that require Subject Tests if you submit the SAT Reasoning Test but not if you submit the ACT. Now it’s probably the case that many Californians do take Subject Tests because the UC system requires them. But that’s actually quite unusual for public universities, even in SAT-centric states.</p>