Parents of the HS Class of 2013

[Kelowna]

<p>

Kel - Congrats! I am so jealous that you have completed a huddle and don’t need to think about the testing. Your son should be very proud of himself.

</p>

<p>I think he was. He did nothing but play computer games all day and eve :D</p>

[tx5athome]

<p>Bclintock: Starting this year the UC’s are no longer requiring the subject tests.</p>

[DrGoogle]

<p>

I disagree. I think SAT subject tests matter to the schools that require them, which is basically just a small handful of schools. If they didn’t matter, they wouldn’t require them. I wouldn’t say they matter more than GPA and SAT/ACT scores, but we’re basically talking about highly selective schools where you’ve got to have all your ducks in a row. If GPA and/or SAT/ACT scores are not top-notch, SAT Subject Test scores won’t save you. But if GPA and SAT/ACT scores are top-notch and SAT Subject Test scores are not, that might also be enough to have an applicant passed over in favor of someone who is a little stronger in that category.

bclinton, this is what you wrote in post #2100. Your post was not clear as above. No where did you mention ACT alone. You lump standardized test with SAT/ACT.
The reason the 7 schools you mentioned require SAT subject tests because you submit ACT, if you submit the SAT, the SAT subject tests do not matter to them anymore. These schools might feel the ACT scores do not accurate reflect the range of subjects that the SAT subject test can provide.It does not mean SAT subject tests matter to the school in terms of admissions.
Enough for me on this subject.</p>

[DrGoogle]

<p>

Not so. Roughly 6 times as many people take the SAT Reasoning Test as Subject Tests. Most of those who take the Reasoning Test have no need to take take Subject Tests, including many applying to top-50 LACs and top-50 universities. It all depends on the schools they’re applying to. Apart from the UC system, there are perhaps 12-15 colleges that require Subject Tests of all applicants, and perhaps another dozen or so that require Subject Tests if you submit the SAT Reasoning Test but not if you submit the ACT. Now it’s probably the case that many Californians do take Subject Tests because the UC system requires them. But that’s actually quite unusual for public universities, even in SAT-centric states.

</p>

<p>But if you applying to the top 50 schools and submit SAT reasoning test, you must submit SAT subject tests. There are 3000 colleges so even some colleges do not require SAT subject tests so of course there will be more SAT reasoning tests vs SAT subject tests. I beleive all the Cal States do not require SAT subject tests.</p>

[sacchi]

<p>

But if you applying to the top 50 schools and submit SAT reasoning test, you must submit SAT subject tests.

</p>

<p>That is just not accurate. If you are applying to most of the top 20 schools or the UCs, it is accurate. But relatively few of the top 21-50 schools require subject tests.</p>

<p>I just don’t want people reading this thread to start panicking because their kid hasn’t taken any subject tests yet, or doesn’t plan to.</p>

[Youdon_tsay]

<p>Bottom line: Look up the requirements for the schools your student is interested in.</p>

[DrGoogle]

<p>

That is just not accurate. If you are applying to most of the top 20 schools or the UCs, it is accurate. But relatively few of the top 21-50 schools require subject tests.</p>

<p>I just don’t want people reading this thread to start panicking because their kid hasn’t taken any subject tests yet, or doesn’t plan to.

There are a few colleges that do not required SAT subject tests. But most require SAT subject tests if you submit the SAT reasoning test. It would be helpful if you list the colleges that you submit the SAT and NOT required to submit the SAT subject test. There is still time to take SAT subject test so there is no reason to panic.
I’m including the list from Compass about SAT subject tests.
<a href=“SAT Subject Test Requirements and Recommendations - Compass Education Group”>SAT Subject Test Requirements and Recommendations - Compass Education Group;

<p>Only see Stanford, Emory, Georgetown, Northwestern, John Hopkins, USC, Vanderbilt, UVA, WashU that fall under Subject tests recommended. I believe these schools are in the top 50 universities.</p>

[Mom24boys]

<p>Another SAT II question - I doubt son will be applying to any top 20 schools, not 100% ruled out, but he will probably be majoring in engineering and I thought most engineering schools required SAT II. He did very well on the Math 2 he took in May and I was planning on having him take Chem or Physics at some point next year.</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>

@DrGoogle

There are a few colleges that do not required SAT subject tests. But most require SAT subject tests if you submit the SAT reasoning test. It would be helpful if you list the colleges that you submit the SAT and NOT required to submit the SAT subject test.

</p>

<p>I wish you would stop spreading misinformation when you clearly don’t know what you’re talking about. </p>

<p>The “Compass” table you linked to listed exactly 13 colleges where Subject tests are required of all applicants, and another 18 where Subject Tests are required of applicants who submit the SAT Reasoning Test, but not of applicants who submit the ACT. They list 83 colleges where Subject Tests are not required from anyone—including 25 where Subject Tests are “recommended,” with varying degrees of strength. And some of their information is incorrect or out-of-date. For example, they show Bryn Mawr as requiring Subject Tests for applicants who submit the SAT Reasoning Test. But Bryn Mawr is now test-flexible; applicants may submit either SAT I, ACT, SAT II, or AP scores. They also show Brandeis as requiring Subject Test scores of applicants who submit the SAT Reasoning Test, but that’s outdated information; Brandeis now requires either the SAT Reasoning Test or the ACT, that’s all. Moreover, they omit a lot of top-50 universities (Michigan, Georgia Tech, Illinois, Wisconsin, U Washington, Penn State, U Miami) and top-50 LACs (Grinnell, Colgate, Holy Cross, Sewanee, University of Richmond, Franklin & Marshall, Dickinson) that do not require Subject Tests.</p>

<p>Bottom line, there are a few colleges that DO require Subject Tests of all applicants, and a few more that require them only of applicants who are submitting the SAT Reasoning Test but not the ACT. The vast majority of colleges, including most top-50 universities and most top-50 LACs, do not require them.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>Drgoogle- it’s clear you think of the SAT as the main test, and the ACT as the alternative, unusual test. You may not know that in other parts of the country, the ACT is the default, standard test and you don’t take the SAT unless you have a very specific reason. In my state, every hs kid is required to take the ACT. Now, my kids chose to take SAT subject tests, but for the most part, they didn’t “have to,” and they never took the base SAT at all. Both are in top 20 schools.</p>

[sacchi]

<p>

Bottom line: Look up the requirements for the schools your student is interested in.

</p>

<p>This is good advice. I’ve just started working on the spreadsheet of possible schools of interest for my D, with various relevant factors. When my S was looking a couple of years back, we found it hard to remember all of the factors for all of the schools, so it was really convenient to be able to refer at a glance to all the relevant data.</p>

<p>Some items are general: Which tests are required? Is EA offered? 25th/75th SAT scores. </p>

<p>Some items are very specific to her: Distance/travel options from home. Do they have an IHSA equestrian team? How many years of foreign language to they require/recommend (since she has had scheduling issues getting in a 3rd year)</p>

<p>I found, for example, that a grand total of 1 college on her potential interest list requires subject tests, and not if the ACT is taken. So, at this point, my inclination is to suggest that she not go out of her way to take 2 subjects tests, and instead take the ACT (in addition to the SAT), since if she scores better on the ACT, it can be used in place of the SAT as well. </p>

<p>It all depends on the schools your kid is aiming at. My S was aiming at a higher tier of school, and did take 2 subject tests.</p>

[Youdon_tsay]

<p>Even knowing what a Subject Test is is half the battle. I didn’t know about them when ds1 finished pre-cal and should have taken the Math II. He took it the following fall.</p>

<p>Ds2 wants to apply to G’town, the one place, I believe, that requires three. What luck. :rolleyes:</p>

[DrGoogle]

<p>

The “Compass” table you linked to listed exactly 13 colleges where Subject tests are required of all applicants, and another 18 where Subject Tests are required of applicants who submit the SAT Reasoning Test,** but not of applicants who submit the ACT**.

Please reread all of my posts. I repeatedly mentioned IF your student submit the SAT reasoning test. I never once mentioned that if you submit the ACT then you must submit the SAT subject tests. If I did, please point it out, I will try to correct the error.

Bottom line, there are a few colleges that DO require Subject Tests of all applicants, and a few more that require them only of applicants who are submitting the SAT Reasoning Test but not the ACT. The vast majority of colleges, including most top-50 universities and most top-50 LACs, do not require them.<br>

I would clarify when I referred to Top 50 Universities, I meant top 50 Universities and NOT LACs. So please don’t drag me in that discussion either. And I have to second what youdontsay wrote, please check the schools that your child is aiming for.</p>

[DrGoogle]

<p>

Drgoogle- it’s clear you think of the SAT as the main test, and the ACT as the alternative, unusual test. You may not know that in other parts of the country, the ACT is the default, standard test and you don’t take the SAT unless you have a very specific reason. In my state, every hs kid is required to take the ACT. Now, my kids chose to take SAT subject tests, but for the most part, they didn’t “have to,” and they never took the base SAT at all. Both are in top 20 schools.

Pizzagirl, please reread all of my posts. I clearly and emphatically mentioned that IF your student submit the SAT reasoning test then in most schools you must submit the SAT subject tests.
Please do not get me involved in the wars between ACT and SAT. I have no intention of getting dragging into that discussion. If you read my post, Northwestern is one of the universities where SAT subject tests are not required and Wellesley is a LAC, most LAC don’t seem to require SAT subject tests, these are the schools that both of your kids got accepted so that is correct. And please don’t mix up the top 20 of LACs and top 20 of Universities. As far as I’m aware of, US News don’t mix them together when it ranks all the colleges, so I have no way of knowing which school ranks what.</p>

[shillyshally]

<p>Developing a spreadsheet is very helpful and I will create a version for D2 similar to the one I used for D1 - I had distance and travel options (plan, train & car or just plane or just car, etc), size of city, population of school, how many recommendations required and if they specified who from, what tests they needed, costs, etc). I also included columns for scholarship/FA info so I had true numbers to compare at the end of the day.</p>

<p>Once you have the list of schools and know the requirements you feel much more in control of the process. For now though pick some schools in the groups where your child is likely to apply and see what their requirements are and use that as a guide.</p>

<p>Mom24boys - my D1 was an engineering applicant but she took subject tests and both the SAT and ACT so she had those to send if needed. She did apply to top schools and where she is now, UVA, I think did want subject tests, but I know quite a few schools on her list she just submitted ACT and didn’t need the SAT IIs so I don’t think it is a necessity for engineering applicants.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

And please don’t mix up the top 20 of LACs and top 20 of Universities. As far as I’m aware of, US News don’t mix them together when it ranks all the colleges, so I have no way of knowing which school ranks what.

</p>

<p>Shrug, there’s really no reason not to treat the two lists as generally equivalent. As far as I’m concerned, if you took the top 20 of both (and there’s no magic cut-off at 21), you’ve got, poof, 40 excellent schools – whether a LAC or university is merely personal preference / choice. There isn’t some grand, great divide.</p>

[Pizzagirl]

<p>

Ds2 wants to apply to G’town, the one place, I believe, that requires three. What luck

</p>

<p>My support is with you for Georgetown. That is a personal favorite of mine – I would have <em>loved</em> to have seen my son go there – and it was also the application that was the most difficult and the one that “scared” me the most.</p>

[Youdon_tsay]

<p>Give me details, PG! What was scary about it? Maybe it will scare him off!</p>

[bclintonk]

<p>

@DrGoogle

I would clarify when I referred to Top 50 Universities, I meant top 50 Universities and NOT LACs. So please don’t drag me in that discussion either.

</p>

<p>The clarification is helpful. What I recall from earlier posts (and I just went back and re-read them) is you were talking about “top 50 schools” and “top 50 colleges,” which is at best ambiguous, though perhaps you meant “top 50 universities” all along.</p>

<p>Confining ourselves to top 50 universities (as ranked by US News), the Compass list you linked to in an earlier post shows 8 universities where Subject Tests are required of all applicants, and another 7 where Subject Tests are required of applicants who submit the SAT Reasoning Test but not of those who submit the ACT. That’s 15 of 50, or 30%, which is not “most” and not even anywhere close to half. </p>

<p>Of those 15, 8 are Ivy League schools. Five Ivies (Columbia, Cornell, Dartmouth, Harvard, Princeton) require Subject Tests of all applicants, while the other 3 (Brown, Penn, Yale) don’t require them for applicants submitting the ACT but do require them for applicants submitting the SAT Reasoning Test. The other 3 universities that require Subject Tests of all applicants are MIT, Caltech, and Carnegie Mellon—all extremely STEM-heavy schools. So for students not planning to apply to Ivy League schools and not looking for top STEM programs, the universe of top universities requiring Subject Tests is very small, indeed. Indeed, it would be possible for such students to avoid Subject Tests altogether by submitting the ACT in lieu of the SAT Reasoning Test. Subject Tests are a big deal for those who aspire to be Ivy-bound, and those applying to a handful of the most selective tech-heavy schools. For others, not so much.</p>

<p>In fairness, though, keep in mind that a few of the schools where Subject Tests are only “recommended”—specifically, Stanford, Northwestern, and Georgetown—seem to expect them. For many other schools where they’re “recommended,” the phrasing is much softer, e.g., “we recommend that you submit them if you think they’ll strengthen your application.”</p>

[megpmom]

<p>Back to the college visit topic…I had a nice conversation with S2’s voice teacher today and he pointed out that S2 will be required to audition on campus for any school he applies to. So, in his opinion, no need to visit any schools at this point. I’m going to have S2 do some research online and narrow down the list. Voice teacher is recommending applying to 8 schools. Plus, S2 will be applying to summer voice programs next year and teacher recommended only applying to schools that are on his college list, so he would get to see the campus, meet the teachers, etc. Apparently, some kids are offered acceptances at the summer programs (pending academic acceptance) so that would be REALLY great! Guess I’ll quit stressing about trying to visit colleges and kick S2’s butt about practicing so he can get a scholarship to summer camp!</p>

<p>Plus voice teacher has offered to take S2 to NYC to sing for some of voice teacher’s former teachers. Not sure if we’ll take him up on the offer as we can’t afford any of the NYC schools or conservatories.</p>