<p>I dont know.</p>
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But today, as everyone here would agree, the Berkeley MBA is in the class of H/S/W.
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<p>I don't agree, and I'd like to think I am a part of 'everyone'.</p>
<p>Don't get me wrong. I certainly agree that Haas has made major strides and is clearly now a top 10 program. But it still doesn't quite compare to the HSW troika. Maybe in the future. But not right now, not yet. </p>
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Berkeley’s MBA and H/S/W MBA except that the later schools have huge student population.
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<p>Uh, not in the case of Stanford. Stanford's MBA program is roughly the same size of the Haas full-time MBA program. Furthermore, Stanford doesn't run a part-time program. So when you add in ALL of Haas's MBA programs (fulltime + EWMBA), Haas clearly has a larger population than Stanford does. </p>
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LA_Raider, you will find top PT programs yield better ROI. Period.
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<p>Well, I don't know if I would go THAT far. ROI is actually a rather complicated topic. </p>
<p>First off, we have to keep in mind that ROI has mostly to do with personal choice. What I mean by that is that if money (and hence, ROI) is the only thing that you care about, then you should be choosing to switch careers to investment banking or, even better, private equity, hedge funds, venture capital, and the like. Those guys make a lot of money. A first-year bulge bracket Wall Street IB associate nowadays will probably make 250k to start, all in, maybe more. Private equity can be even better. As reported by Businessweek (and reproduced by CNN): </p>
<p>*...According to Business Week, the very best newly-minted MBAs can command salaries and bonuses totaling more than $400,000 in private equity..." *</p>
<p>Now, granted, it is quite difficult to get into a top private equity firm or hedge fund, and private equity will probably begin to pay less (and hire less) due to the recent market turmoil. </p>
<p>Nevertheless, the salient point is that ROI is very much a matter of personal choice. Many people simply choose not to maximize their ROI because they choose to enter lower-paying industries that they enjoy more. </p>
<p>However, like I said, if you just want money - if money is the only thing that you care about - and you go to one of the top full-time B-schools (i.e. HSW), and you're willing to put in the effort necessary to get a finance job, you'll almost certainly get one. It may not be with the top firms, you may end up having to work for a lower-ranked firm (yet many lower-ranked firms pay MORE than do the famous ones, but in return for lower "resume prestige"), but you will most likely be able to get an offer. Working in one of these jobs for 1-2 years ought to wipe out any ROI considerations you have.</p>
<p>On the other hand, it's much more difficult to get one of these jobs if you go to a part-time program. I'm quite certain that the guys who will graduate from Harvard Business School next year who have lined up jobs from hedge funds or VCPE are not worried about ROI. </p>
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I think your earnings are not that bad considering that the average Haas MBA grad would earn 130k/annum (all in) and the Stanford grad 140k/annum (also all in).
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<p>I think we have to keep in mind just how misleading these kinds of statistics are. First off, they rarely discuss year-end bonuses. Yes, it's difficult to do so because nobody can predict with certainty what the year-end bonus is. You might get nothing (and hence, the reported compensation figures generally only include guaranteed bonuses). But often times, you will get quite a bit, and in the case of financial services, your year-end bonus will often times actually exceed your yearly salary. </p>
<p>Secondly, and probably far more importantly, MBA compensation figures are actually relatively "low" in the first year. The compensations of MBA's tends to ramp up quickly after a few years post-graduation. For example, an Ibanker with 5-7 years of post-MBA experience generally makes about double to triple what he made to start. Hence, starting compensation means relatively little for an MBA. What really matters is "later compensation". Of course, that is not easy to determine. </p>
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i keep getting my hefty pay check, employer pays costs, option for future interviews open
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<p>Uh, in the case of Haas EWMBA, make sure that that last phrase is true. You should probably know that, at least as far as a few years ago, the EWMBA program restricts students from using its career services office (which is the most straightforward way to get the job with Bain or McKinsey that you mentioned.) Basically, what happened in the past with regard to the EWMBA program is precisely what you seem to want to do: you want your employer to pay for your MBA, but you still want the freedom to use the career office to recruit with other employers. Naturally, a lot of employers in the past objected vociferously to this practice (because they would pay for people's MBA's only to watch them leave), so the program instituted a policy that barred all EWMBA students from unrestricted use of the career office unless they could present an official document from their employer, usually signed by an HR official, that attests to their approval of your use of the office. </p>
<p>Hence, if you're going to choose Haas EWMBA, you should make sure that either this rule has been rescinded (which I doubt), or that your employer really will in fact provide you with this document. If neither of these events will happen, then you have to keep in mind that ability to find another job will be restricted. </p>
<p>That's not to say that you shouldn't go to Haas EWMBA, which I think is a solid program. I just think it's good for you to know this now so that you don't get blindsided later.</p>
<p>Hmm... nice info sakky. </p>
<p>The last 3 para's add a lot of insight.</p>
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Are the firms that seek grads of Haas/Dartmouth/Yale/Sloan/Chicago/Columbia/Ross/Kellogg/Stern/Duke, to name some, are different from those firms that seek grads of S/H/W
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<p>Actually, yeah there are. To take HBS as an example, there are indeed many of the top private equity firms that will only recruit at Harvard, but won't recruit at any of the other schools in that 2nd tier you mentioned. </p>
<p>{In fact, I think the word 'recruit' is actually too strong. Those PE firms don't really recruit at all, not in the traditional sense. Instead, you have to put in the work to find them. Many of them are very secretive. The realistic way to get a job with them is through alumni networking. But that's where the vaunted HBS network comes into play. </p>
<p>To give you an example of what I am talking about, I know a guy who wanted to get his doctorate looking at the social networks of private equity, which means he actually has to obtain access to private equity partners in order to interview them and build his database. His undergrad professors all told him to a man that if that's what he wants to study, he should do that at HBS, because that is the one school in the world that will give him the best access to the data he seeks. He can leverage the HBS alumni network to get people to talk to him. Private equity firms are by their nature private such that they don't talk to most people, and in fact, most people can't even find them, and the only way to access them is through social networks - which is precisely what he wants to study.}</p>
<p>The same sort of things happens with venture capital and angel investors with regards to Stanford. Again, there are a lot of highly secretive venture capital firms - and especially angel investors - out there. Many of them are connected to Stanford (or Harvard). </p>
<p>I think we all have to keep in mind that, apart from the well-know and well-sown realm of management consulting and investment banking that run high-profile recruiting campaigns and deliberately try to market themselves to MBA's, there is another world, a shadowy world of venture capital, private equity, hedge funds, sovereign wealth management, and other such alternative firms that do not court publicity and often times deliberately try to keep their names out of the paper. Yet these are the firms that often times offer the best jobs of all. You make more than you would as an investment banker and have more power while working less. It's a very sweet gig if you can get it. A lot of MBA's at the top schools have now caught on to this trend. For example, I've now heard several HBS MBA's specifically say that investment banking at even Goldman Sachs is something you take only because you weren't good enough to get an offer from one of the alternative investment firms. I believe I read somewhere that 75% of all HBS MBA students are members of the VCPE club. They're starting to catch on.</p>
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i keep getting my hefty pay check, employer pays costs, option for future interviews open, in the event a good offer does not come through (a McK or Bain)
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<p>The other aspect I forgot to mention with regard to the EWMBA is that I think it is going to be relatively difficult for you to get an offer from a consuting (or banking) firm, simply because of the nature of the interview process. Two reasons come to mind, both having to do with the way that consulting firms actually hire. </p>
<p>First off, consulting firms tend to fill much (often times most) of their cohorts through their summer internship programs. Hence, the normal path for an MBA to get a consulting offer from, say, McKinsey is to win the internship offer to work there in the summer after their first year of the MBA program. Perform decently in that summer and you will probably leave with an offer in hand to return to them after you graduate. That doesn't leave that many openings remaining for those who didn't get a McKinsey internship, and those that remain will often times be given to those who interned for other consulting firms over the summer. </p>
<p>Hence, if you're working full-time while in the EWMBA program, you're going to find yourself at a major disadvantage when it comes to competing for a consulting position because you won't have any consulting internship experience. That is, unless you can convince your employer to give you a summer leave-of-absence. It is quite difficult for an MBA to garner a consulting offer if he has no prior consulting experience (not even a summer internship). </p>
<p>The second major obstacle that I see is that almost all consulting interviews happen during the regular workweek. Consulting firms simply expect that you will be around during regular hours at either the school or at their headquarters, and if you're not around, oh well, they'll just hand the interview slot to somebody who is around. But as a Haas EWMBA student (or a part-time MBA student at any school for that matter), by definition, you are rarely around during regular hours. I suppose you could come up with some excuse for your employer to attend a consulting interview. {I.e., "I have to take this afternoon off because, uh, my dog died, yeah, that's it."} </p>
<p>But the point is that it's logistically difficult. You won't have any internship experience. You won't have interview time flexibility. You may still be able to land a consulting offer anyway. But I'm just pointing out that it will be difficult. That is why relatively few EWMBA grads (or grads of any part-time program) are able to successfully transition to consulting (or banking).</p>
<p>Thats all definitely true. I can't comment on the ultra-elite fund management, but i don't see any reason why it will not be true. I am sure you'd start off at the bottom though cause they probably have the best of the best already working there.</p>
<p>Regarding your comment about HAAS getting in to consulting. I completely agree. And although I know you did not state it is impossible, i still want to emphasize to future readers, that it is not impossible to get in...</p>
<p>I was talking with a HAAS EWMBA graduate who said McK recruited one person this year from HAAS, and it was from the EWMBA class. But it is certainly harder to get in I agree.</p>
<p>Sakky, from what you are saying, it seems that if one gets in to H/S/W then one should take that offer, pay out of pocket, and forego the other options.. right?</p>
<p>McKinsey only recruited one person from the entirety of Haas?</p>
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Sakky, from what you are saying, it seems that if one gets in to H/S/W then one should take that offer, pay out of pocket, and forego the other options.. right?
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<p>I did not say that. In fact, I have been quite careful not to make any recommendation one way or another . </p>
<p>What I am saying is that you shouldn't kid yourself into thinking that you aren't giving something up by turning down a top-flight fulltime program like HSW. You certainly are. The real question is, how much does that matter to you? If you don't really care about working in VC/PE/HF, then you may not need HSW. If you don't really care that much about consulting firms (i.e. if they're only a passing fancy), then it may not matter that a part-time program won't give you full access to their recruiting schedule. </p>
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Thats all definitely true. I can't comment on the ultra-elite fund management, but i don't see any reason why it will not be true. I am sure you'd start off at the bottom though cause they probably have the best of the best already working there.
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<p>Sure, but you also start at the bottom if you take investment banking or consulting. The main difference is that the 'bottom' of the alt investment firms is a heck of a lot higher paying and more powerful than the bottom of IB and MC, and probably offers a higher quality of life (certainly compared to IB, which has a notoriously poor quality of life). Heck, I would say that the bottom of the alt funds is still better than even the mid-level of many IB and MC firms. </p>
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McKinsey only recruited one person from the entirety of Haas?
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<p>I think he meant to say the EWMBA program. Clearly the full-time MBA program. In fact, McKinsey is one of the top 10 employers from the full-time program. </p>
<p>For</a> Employers - MBA Employment Reports - Haas School of Business</p>
<p>sakky, I was talking about the QUALITY of the Haas MBA PROGRAM, not the school brand name as it takes time to develop a brand especially when competition is tough.</p>
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sakky, I was talking about the QUALITY of the Haas MBA PROGRAM, not the school brand name as it takes time to develop a brand especially when competition is tough.
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<p>And I too was talking about the quality of the Haas MBA ** program**. It's not quite at the level of HSW, at least, not yet. In time, it may get there, but it's not quite there.</p>
<p>As a simple example, look at the business subspecialty rankings. Generally speaking, HSW earn higher rankings than does Haas. Now, granted, Haas will beat one of HSW in certain subspecialties. But overall, HSW seems to beat Haas.</p>
<p>To give you one specific example, take entrepreneurship. Entrepreneurship is Haas's crown jewel, so much so that the Haas administration was seriously considering rebranding itself to focus on its strength in entrepreneurship. The Haas Entrepreneur Association is the largest student club at Haas, speaking to the great popularity and strength of Haas's entrepreneurship program. But did you realize that, according to USNews, HSW all have higher rankings in entrepreneurship than does Haas? That's right - HIGHER. Again, entrepreneurship is supposed to be Haas's core strength and it is indeed one of the best offerings of Haas. But according to the rankings, HSW are even better. </p>
<p>We can also talk about the business literature. The truth is, HSW are far more prominent in terms of producing more and more highly cited business literature (both academic and practitioner) than Haas is. </p>
<p>Look, that's not to say that Haas is a bad school. It certainly is a very good school. And, like I said, it has made great strides in the last 10 years. Perhaps one day it really will be the equal of HSW. But right now, the signs indicate that it's not quite there yet.</p>
<p>sakky, there's very little difference between number 3 and number 5, so it does not matter that much if Haas’ entrepreneurship is ranked #7 or number 3 or number 5. All the top 10 schools, in my opinion, have amazing entrepreneurship program.</p>
<p>But all other things equal, you should want to prefer the school that is higher ranked in more categories, especially in the categories that you care about. </p>
<p>Powergrid, I seem to recall that you said that you said that you were interested in entrepreneurship + finance (or maybe it was entrepreneurship + something else). In any case, if it was entrepreneurship + finance, then allow me to point out that HSW each have a better average rating in entrepreneurship and finance than Haas does.</p>
<p>^ I'll take your word for it, sakky, and I'd like to thank you for the very insightful comment you made. </p>
<p>I do know that HSW are great MBA schools with superb brand name. My point is that, so is Haas. And although HSW do still have an edge, that edge has narrowed down today, unlike in the 80's to 90's where there was really a big distinction in program quality and school prestige among them. </p>
<p>You're right, I'm interested in entrepreneurship, but the other major that I'm also interested in is general management, not finance. </p>
<p>I have visited HSW campuses and sat it with sone of the lectures conducted. I never liked it; I felt uneasy. The H class I observed was boring. With W, I thought there are just too many Filipinos around. 3 friends are currently enrolled there right now and another bunch of Filipinos that were introduced to me makes me feel a W MBA diploma is kind of mass production. Of course, that's just a personal reason. S atmosphere is too fake, plus a personal reason that I’d like to keep it for myself. Columbia is too busy and crowded. NYU felt like I was in an office in Manila. It was different when I visited Haas; I suddenly felt I belong to that school. The campus was great. The people were carefree yet warm and supportive. I was entertained well. One faculty member even talked to me and toured me around -- I was really amazed. The fantastic experienced I had at Haas cannot be traded. Besides, like I said, the difference between a top 1 rank and top 5 doesn’t really mater that much. Some of the students I have talked with when I was there had also been admitted at HSW. There were two Chinese guys and French man who turned down S/H form Haas and they were happy that they did.</p>
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You're right, I'm interested in entrepreneurship, but the other major that I'm also interested in is general management, not finance.
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<p>Then my point still stands: HSW are also all rated higher than Haas in general management.</p>
<p>Sakky, regarding your comment:</p>
<p>Uh, in the case of Haas EWMBA, make sure that that last phrase is true. You should probably know that, at least as far as a few years ago, the EWMBA program restricts students from using its career services office (which is the most straightforward way to get the job with Bain or McKinsey that you mentioned.) Basically, what happened in the past with regard to the EWMBA program is precisely what you seem to want to do: you want your employer to pay for your MBA, but you still want the freedom to use the career office to recruit with other employers. Naturally, a lot of employers in the past objected vociferously to this practice (because they would pay for people's MBA's only to watch them leave), so the program instituted a policy that barred all EWMBA students from unrestricted use of the career office unless they could present an official document from their employer, usually signed by an HR official, that attests to their approval of your use of the office.</p>
<p>This is their response:</p>
<p>EWMBA students currently have full access to career services, including on-campus recruitment for jobs and internships. Additionally, we have dedicated EWMBA career staff to provide workshops and career counseling on nights and weekends. We also just launched the "experienced hire resume database" for employers and recently hosted an experienced hire career fair.</p>
<p>Some students may have signed a contract with their company stating a specific employment commitment in exchange for tuition, but that is between the student and their employer. We no longer require a letter form HR to access services.</p>
<p>Well, then that's very good news indeed. </p>
<p>However, you should still pay heed to the other issues I described, in particular, the sheer logistical difficulties in arranging a consulting interview through EWMBA. In fact, I recommend connecting with that former EWMBA student who went to McKinsey and asking him exactly how he managed to land the interview.</p>
<p>sakky, I'm just curious why you seem so negative about Haas and Berkeley in general. I read back some of the post you made about Berkeley and most of them have a tone of hatred and disgust about the school. I never encountered anyone who is as passionate as you re in criticising the school. I’m not mad at you or something; after all I don’t go to that school. I’m only curious why you feel such disgust towards that school. Any particular reason why? I'm just curious why you think Berkeley is that bad for you.</p>
<p>First off, if you actually read more of my posts, I think you will find quite a few where I have defended and praised Berkeley in general, and Haas specifically. For example, I think I have been quite consistent in saying that Haas has been arguably the most rapid riser in the last 10 years. when it comes to B-schools. </p>
<p>I don't want to get into my biography, but suffice it to say that I know Berkeley very very well, and in particular, I know all of its faults and I desperately want for it to improve. One major problem that I have seen on this discussion board and in real life is that a lot of people who are connected to Berkeley are simply not interested in having the school improve. Their attitude seems to be that it doesn't matter if problems exist, as long as nobody talks about them. They're more interested in having the school look good than in having it be good. </p>
<p>I don't believe in that philosophy, and I never will. My philosophy is that if problems exist at Berkeley, then we should discuss them openly such that they might be fixed so that others won't have to experience the same problems (or will at least know what the problems are so they aren't surprised by them later). Thankfully, I have found others on this board who actually are interested in discussing the problems in order to have the school improve. </p>
<p>But look. I don't want to pat myself on the back and say that I'm great. However, I'd like to think that via people like me, you are getting a rich and balanced view of what Berkeley is really like, including all its faults. Every school has its faults, the question is, whether there are people who are willing to talk openly about them. The discussions of other schools are quite slanted in the sense that nobody is willing to talk about their problems, even though, like I said, every school has its problems. </p>
<p>Look, if I wasn't around, Berkeley's problems would still exist. I am not responsible for creating any of the problems. I simply talk about them. If nothing else, at least people will be able to read my posts and obtain a fuller view of what the Berkeley experience is really all about. </p>
<p>But the bottom line is that I have never said that Berkeley was "bad" for me or in general. I have simply said that Berkeley is not for everybody. Berkeley has some strengths and also has some weaknesses. Some people do very well at Berkeley, and others do very poorly indeed. It is up to you to figure out which group you belong to.</p>
<p>I finished Haas EWMBA in 2008. I really liked the program so I have put together my thoughts and related URLs .
[WHY</a> BERKELEY for your MBA program: - a knol by Eiji Hagiwara](<a href=“http://knol.google.com/k/why-berkeley-for-your-mba-program#]WHY”>http://knol.google.com/k/why-berkeley-for-your-mba-program#)</p>
<p>If you want to become friends with people from rich family, you might want to go to HBS or Stanford. Most of Billionairs listed in Forbes.com have HarvardMBA. </p>
<p>If you want to mingle with people who drives innovation and change the world, go to Berkeley!<br>
My undergrad school was also Berkeley. I only applied to Parttime MBA at Berkeley.</p>