<p>That’s fine cobrat, but my kids aren’t so special and so tippy top that they can’t take classes with merely bright children. </p>
<p>I didn’t think we were only writing about the ultra upper reaches of intelligences.</p>
<p>"However, the values of their parents were such that for their families…paying for the most academically rigorous/challenging college their kid(s) could handle was the top priority compared to everything else. "</p>
<p>This makes me uncomfortable. There’s almost the implication that one doesn’t love one’s kid enough not to sacrifice everything for the absolute best education.</p>
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Neither are the top public universities…</p>
<p><a href=“http://tcf.org/publications/pdfs/pb230/pellgrant.pdf[/url]”>http://tcf.org/publications/pdfs/pb230/pellgrant.pdf</a></p>
<p>College of William and Mary: 8.0%
U of Virginia: 8.6%
U Michigan-Ann Arbor: 12.5%
UNC-Chapel Hill: 13.2%</p>
<p>Of the 6 best public universities in this nation, only UC Berkeley and UCLA are extremely socioeconomically diverse and that may have more to do with California’s demographics than anything else.</p>
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<p>Elsewhere, as in there exists some other place where an equally rigorous education can be had. But not at Podunk U, or even most state flagships.</p>
<p>I went to my state U, very large, bureaucratic and party school but agree top student can get a good education there with alot of patience. Not sure how socially happy they are. So I can compare to the experience of elite U for each of my kids to state U. Elite U significantly smaller and offered much better interaction with profs and experiences simply not available at state U. I’m not going to go into too personal details here. So in our case, while I would have loved to save the money. both elite U’s have been worth it. I was simply answering the question: " can anyone say so much money was “worth it”. I also agree if you can get elite U with big financial package definitely take it. The one thing I am really annoyed about is having bothered to save for kids education and as a result they could not qualify for aid that they otherwise would have qualified for…but I guess that is a good “problem” to have.</p>
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<p>do you really think that most state flagships do not have programs that offer rigor to their students if the student wants/ seeks it out? I will agree that every program at MIT will be rigorous, and not every program at a state flagship will be. However, I continue to believe that a college education can be what you make of it at almost any college.</p>
<p>We could have paid $50,000+ for our D to attend a private university, but I am sure glad that she chose the in-state public U. In her sophomore year I was diagnosed with serious health problems. Not only is she going to be able to graduate with no loans or debt, but she can also come and visit me, and I can visit her. Most importantly, she will graduate on time (maybe even early, because she hasn’t had any trouble getting classes) and even have some of her college money left over in case she goes to grad or professional school. </p>
<p>All I can say is, maybe the elite private schools are worth the extra $125,000, but stuff happens. You might think you’ll be able to afford it, and then WHAMMY- you get hit with something you didn’t plan on, like a layoff, or cancer, or whatever. If I were facing college bills of over $55,000 a year right now, I think I would croak.</p>
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<p>The claim I responded to was that a student who seeks it out could get an EQUALLY rigorous education as at MIT and Caltech. This is just not true. The good, but not top state flagship where I am on the faculty simply does not offer courses like Math55 at Harvard, Honors Calculus at UChicago, or the equivalent ones at MIT and Caltech. And it doesn’t matter much to a student in field X that their U has a rigorous program in field Y.</p>
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<p>I’ve spent time, either as a student or faculty member, at 8 different universities, including Harvard, Caltech, MIT, and 3 state flagships of varying prestige levels. If you count H’s and S’s experiences, then I have pretty good knowledge of several more. A student can get more or less out of any place, and go on to lead a happy and productive life with a degree from just about anywhere (or no degree at all). But in my experience, the idea that the opportunities at all colleges are the same if only the student seeks them out is just not true in my experience.</p>
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<p>…and I think your point may have been that your D doesn’t need that hand holding but your S does?</p>
<p>I think that’s a great point to make about small LACs vs big Us…big Us have resources but a student may need to be more motivated to find and take advantage of them. </p>
<p>If a student is motivated, I suppose one could say that doing so “pays” $40K a year - the “job” being to seek out profs and scour web sites :)</p>
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<p>^^ this. (though I wonder if you “suck the juice” out of Harvard, will that have a very different outcome than “sucking the juice out of” “less costly” U?</p>
<p>I wish there were some type of USNWR-type publication that ranked college outcomes in as much detail as USNWR ranks incoming student stats. </p>
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<p>See what would be fun to compare is how strong and interesting they were coming OUT of those colleges…</p>
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<p>Right there with you.</p>
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<p>That might be the best line in this entire thread.</p>
<p>motherbear, your opinion is contradicted by the available evidence, which clear shows that a motivated student can get a rigorous education at almost any college.</p>
<p>Annasdad, I believe it is easier to get a rigorous education where only rigorous courses are offered and your peers have similar academic commitments to yourself. It is harder to get a rigorous education where the rigor of a course is adjusted to a median student of lower academic capabilities and you don’t need to study as hard or learn as much to succeed as in a more rigorous college - and some topics in a course aren’t covered and some courses aren’t even offered. It is harder to stay a motivated student if you are in a sea of not-as-motivated students.</p>
<p>Agree with post 107 except that I don’t think a super elite is necessary even for the superintelligent. For grad school yes, but not undergrad. In fact, I think the higher the intelligence the less necessary an elite school is for undergrad. Most of the knowledge learned in undergrad actually can be found in the library as someone mentioned. My son’s focus was on whether there were enough classes offered in a particular subject (meaning probably requiring access to graduate classes as an undergrad), and if there were enough research opportunities. These can be found at many non elite universities, for way less than $50K a year. Our son plans on attending the super elite school as a grad student, when he is paid to be there.</p>
<p>Analogous to OP’s decision is playing golf on a public course vs. joining an expensive private golf club; or choosing to elope vs. having an elaborate first wedding.</p>
<p>Neither choice guarantees that you will become a better golfer or have a more successful marriage. It is a choice between life experiences.</p>
<p>Would you rather hack away for half of your day, trying to improve your game at a bargain price, with a mix of local people at a course with a limited budget that is set up to serve the masses? Or would you rather pay for the privilege of hacking away with hand-picked fellow members and every amenity at your beck and call (that may or may not make a whit of difference in improving your handicap)?</p>
<p>Would you rather elope and save the cash to buy a house? Or pull out all the stops and throw the party of a lifetime with your best friends and family and favorite foods and a live band, because it is the only time you will ever get to do this without looking gauche?</p>
<p>I don’t know. I teach at a mediocre academic institution and whenever I get a student who’s REALLY bright, I’m SLAP HAPPY. They get lots of extra attention from me, they get invited over to my house, sometimes I write papers with them and sometimes I publish with them. I often employ them. And because there are fewer of them they probably get more of my attention. I admit that sometimes I wonder what they’re doing at MPU (Mediocre private university) but I’m also VERY GLAD they’re there.</p>
<p>annasdad,
Measuring the effectiveness of a university and what students learn there is not easy. Just because someone tries to do it and manages to publish a report about their attempt doesn’t mean they have measured what matters or that their inferences are correct.</p>
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<p>No doubt it would be. But the studies I cited above show that there are peers without those “academic commitments” at every school; and reports such as the one by William Deresciewcz, who taught at Columbia and Yale, support that conclusion.</p>
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[quote It is harder to get a rigorous education where the rigor of a course is adjusted to a median student of lower academic capabilities and you don’t need to study as hard or learn as much to succeed as in a more rigorous college - and some topics in a course aren’t covered
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<p>But there are rigorous courses at almost all colleges. Yes, you may have to seek them out; but we’re talking about motivated students who will do just that. There are also gut courses at almost all colleges, and students who are there mainly for the “college experience” and the credential they get handed at the end of it will seek them out. </p>
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<p>Clearly, if you plan to major in, say, math - and especially if you are entering at an advanced level - you will want to avoid a small LAC with minimal math offerings. </p>
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<p>I’m sure it is. But a student who is dedicated to getting a top-quality education will persevere and achieve his or her goals.</p>
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<p>Yes, much better just to go by USNWR and assume that because a college costs a lot of money it must be worth it, right?</p>
<p>Rather than just throw random rocks, if you think the studies are flawed, why not point out where and why?</p>
<p>Props to eastcoascrazy for an articulate, well-reasoned and thoughtful post. If you’re just joining this conversation (or, like me, re-joining and amazed to find it is still going!), post 107 is a “must read” both on the merits and for the CC lore value of learning about “the fear that others are full of cotton headed ninnymuggins.” </p>
<p>motherbear332, thanks for sharing your personal insights.</p>
<p>Cotton headed ninny muggin needs to be on the best CC one liners.</p>
<p>It would not be appropriate to generalize this question, as the answer is specific for every students situation. 50K/yr could be two years income for one family, two months income for another. What kind of personality does the student have, how do they work best and where would they fit in?</p>
<p>Had my son gone to our flagship U that accepted him, we would have saved about 200K. But, since they are even turning down 4.0GPA students into the computer science department, he probably couldn’t have even majored in CS. Instead, he’s at one of the top schools in the nation for CS, double majoring in it, and is extremely happy there. I am most certain that his opportunities in his chosen field are far better where he is.</p>
<p>Impossible to generalize fairly. That is a great post #107, I learned a new insult, which is always a good thing.</p>