<p>How do you know the school will cost $50k per year? Have you been admitted yet? Lots of the better schools have good financial aid. I doubt that the price would still be that high if you needed the money. I mean, it’d be more like $40k, but still. Try to compare after you know the financial deal at both places.</p>
<p>I believe that “Cotton headed ninny muggins” comes from the movie Elf…</p>
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<p>As I said in my earlier post, I happen to have personal experience at several univesities, including some of the ones that have come up in this discussion. I have plenty of first-hand knowledge to compare those without any appeal to USNWR. Some expensive colleges are worth the money, many, maybe even most of them, aren’t. </p>
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<p>I’ve been involved enough in trying to assess student outcomes and educational experiences in my own program (these assessments are mandated by both the state and accreditation organizations) to be aware how difficult it is to measure something meaningful in a valid way. That is enough for me to be skeptical of the sweeping conclusions of your reports, especially when they contradict my own experience.</p>
<p>There are a lot of people who pay 50k+/year/child for college. Do you think they are doing it because they have nothing else better to do with their money? Let me see, I have extra 50K+ a year, and I really don’t know what to do with it, so let me just p**s it away at some meaningless educational institution for my kid. Just call me stupid.</p>
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reports such as the one by William Deresciewcz, who taught at Columbia and Yale, support that conclusion.
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<p>I just finished a book by him today! “A Jane Austen Education” I believe he has a PhD in English. This book of his tells what a great education he received by reading all of Austen’s books!</p>
<p>This argument has been going on on this site since it began. I doubt anyone has ever changed anyone else’s mind. </p>
<p>That’s not surprising. It’s not just that we have different kids, different financial situations, and different in state options, we also have different values. </p>
<p>Annasdad says:
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<p>That’s a cheap shot–pun ?-- sort of intended. HYPSMC/AWS aren’t the most expensive colleges in the US. Plenty of others are just as expensive. In fact, some are even more expensive—even for those who pay full sticker price. USNews doesn’t factor cost into the rankings. </p>
<p>I sent my offspring to a public G&T program and a NYC public magnet high school. I think there are some advantages to the top private schools like Collegiate and Brearley. I’m not talking about prestige or connections–I just honestly think they do a better job teaching some skills. But, no, I didn’t think that the difference in the quality of education was worth the difference in the price tag.</p>
<p>But there’s no such option for college. If my offspring had a different profile, Olin or Cooper Union might have been an option. But…no such luck. </p>
<p>I have no regrets for paying the big bucks for UG. Personally, I think UG is more important than grad or professional school. Grad school is usually free. Anyone who gets a JD,MD or MBA can probably figure out a way to pay the $ back or find some program to do so. (Well, for law school, it’s probably only true if you attend T14. People argue about that one too.) </p>
<p>HYPS do have facilities that SUNY Geneseo just didn’t have. If you don’t believe that…well…some people don’t believe in global warning or evolution . I’ve never found it productive to argue with them either.</p>
<p>I commuted to a public university for Engineering and then went for company paid graduate programs. Very inexpensive. It isn’t the experience I would want for my children, but we live very comfortably and could send my 2 S’s to elite 4-year colleges if this came to be. My peers come from a wide variety of universities. </p>
<p>S1 is at a higher quality public university than I attended, having passed on WUSTL, BC, and others, for an academic scholarship. He was thinking about pre-med and arrived at his decision rationalizing that these schools were not $40K a year better - particularly in looking ahead at med school costs.</p>
<p>My co-workers son is at one of the Ivies and decided on this path at full price despite getting some full academic scholarships from some very good public universities. I can see the benefits of these elite schools.</p>
<p>In many ways, I wish S1 had gone to WUSTL. Hell, I wish I could have gone there - a fantastic place. There is no question that these schools have much to offer and the experience, as a whole, is arguably worth some level of investment.</p>
<p>I think it comes down to whether or not you can afford it and how you view the return on investment. Is it an experience that you are looking for? Or, does it come down to a pure dollar based return on investment? The more money one has the more likely it is that the experience is a greater consideration. I can see both sides of this thread. </p>
<p>Although, I certainly would be wincing a bit if I was outlaying for an elite and S or D wasn’t enjoying it or not applying themselves.</p>
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<p>You must mean Liberty, not SUNY Geneseo, right?</p>
<p>(Also, “global warning”? 
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<p>Annasdad, I went full-ride to a small college (USNWR regionally highly ranked) and took advantage of every opportunity they had, graduating #1 in the school. There was no comparison to the education my brother got at his Ivy, both in my major and nonmajor courses. I got a full ride to that same Ivy (HYP) grad school and helped with some of their courses (grading and labs - TA’s don’t teach there). Believe me, I did NOT receive as rigorous an undergrad education as those Ivy students. The freshman honors course in my subject which I graded floored me! I was lucky I had taken the senior elective in my college on the same topic.</p>
<p>You can believe what you wish, but my experience matches motherbear’s. </p>
<p>As for my kids (both 99% SAT scores) - one went to the flagship ranked in the top ten in the nation in his major -the other went ivy. Who got the more rigorous education? I don’t know about the courses in S’s major, but for all the ones outside of the major, D’s coursework was much broader and more rigorous, and she took full advantage. We sent her to that school because she fell in love with the course catalog and begged us, and she took full advantage, double majoring and double minoring and doing research and non-research internships and doing an off-campus program and just expanded her worldview and group of friends vastly more than S did. S has done well for himself - he’s highly successful in a very good job, (currently more successful than D, but in a different field), and has a wonderful group of friends who moved to the same area he’s working in, but even though he graduated with honors and minored and did an extra honors program, and did research, he did not have the mind-expanding experiences (except for one trip abroad) that his sister did in nonmajor courses - even his humanities honors courses were not taught at a level to sustain his interest. Believe me, they compared reading lists and discussed what classes were like, and I read all their books when they were done with them. When D graduated, he said he regretted not having applied there. Just last month, after completing his masters, he commented that he was surprised his undergrad program had been ranked so highly, as he could now see its weaknesses. </p>
<p>Are they both amazing young adults now? Yes. Did we save money on S’s choice of school? Yes, but if we had spent it, we wouldn’t have lost it in the market crash of 2008. Could both of them now get free rides for a PhD if desired? Yes. (S says he doesn’t want or need it, D is working for a couple of years while considering.)</p>
<p>Just my experience… just some real life anecdotal evidence…Can you be successful after graduating from most colleges? Yes, but I don’t believe any study that tells me you can get just as rigorous an education at most colleges as long as you’re motivated. Of course, some kids don’t care about the rigor, they care about the degree. But if you have a child who thrives on rigor…</p>
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<p>HYPS schools with huge multi-billion dollar endowments throwing off income to use for operating expenses, would correctly argue that even full-pay students are not subsidizing everyone else. Rather, centuries of giving subsidize the full pay student.</p>
<p>I do not buy that the endpoint of an UG education is simply to place into grad school or a well-paying job. You will have top kids at honors colleges getting merit rides but they are there as the exception and not as the norm as seen in Ivys and equivalents. Surely the school has to have some motivation to hand out merit rides for the atypically accomplished scholars.</p>
<p>I’ve been through this debate on CC before and people chime in about separating causation from correlation but half of Yale’s Law school class, arguably the most selective Law school in the country, comes from Yale and Harvard UG. Does the highly motivated student from DePaul compete well at this level? The top students at top prestige schools are going to have opportunities not available to many top students at state flagships. They will obtain a “worldliness” not possible from a state college. Agree with Hunt that this may not be a value to all and any sacrifice financially on the part of someone who disagrees is money poorly spent. I, OTOH, can’t think of a better way to spend money on my kids.</p>
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<p>LOL. You’re citing a study that’s more than 10 years old.</p>
<p>On some more recent figures, the Washington Monthly ranked colleges on “social mobility,” citing inter alia to more recent Pell Grant figures. Michigan’s 12% Pell recipients in its student body is not outstanding, but it compares favorably, inter alia, to:</p>
<p>Cornell 11%
Georgetown 10%
Boston College 10%
Tufts 10%
GW 10%
Caltech 9%
Duke 9%
Carnegie Mellon 9%
Wake Forest 9%
Notre Dame 8%
Vanderbilt 8%
American 8%
Northwestern 7%
WUSTL 6%
Tulane 6%</p>
<p>Moreover, comparing actual to predicting graduation rates (taking into account, inter alia, the demographic profile of entering students), Michigan ranked a respectable #42. In contrast, here are the ranks of some of its leading private competitors:</p>
<p>Georgetown #101
GW #103
Brown #105
Cornell #108
Notre Dame #126
Harvard #133
Penn #135
Dartmouth #145
Northwestern #150
Yale #156
Princeton #170
Emory #171
Columbia #175
U Chicago #187
WUSTL #191
Carnegie Mellon #202</p>
<p>annasdad,
If money were no object and your dau got into and wanted to go to an expensive/elite school, would you let her go?</p>
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<p>William Deresciewcz, a truly disgruntled former professor, wrote an essay not a report after he was denied tenure at Yale. He wrote another essay about abuses of junior faculty and graduate students by universities with the complicity of senior professors. I think he has a lot of valid points but this is one person’s opinion - not a report or study. When some of us pointed this out before, you responded you believe a Yale/Columbia prof more than anonymous posters on the internet. I really like the second essay. In my opinion, it is worth reading.</p>
<p>I agree with TXArtemis that you are mischaracterizing Andrew Roberts “The Thinking Student’s Guide to College,”. But it looks like a book worth reading. I am trying to find any scholarly reaction to Pascarella and Terenzini, “How Colleges Affect Students,” vol. 2, “A Third Decade of Research.” I can’t. This research might be interesting to discuss without bias.</p>
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<p>For me, this is like measuring reading skills in various kindergarten classrooms at the end of the year without taking into account what is happening in the home. Obviously not all education happens in the classroom. What if the teacher never taught reading and ended up with a classroom where 13 of 15 students could read. Does that mean he or she was a good teacher at a good school?</p>
<p>And if the teacher and school don’t matter … on-line education is just as good as flagship or elite.</p>
<p>and yes, I thought we were done with this after post 107, too :)</p>
<p>edit: Except a thoughtful discussion about what our kids who are planning on graduate school/professional school need to have access to at their colleges and need to achieve might be useful to some parents. I think some may not have a sense of how very competitive this has become in some fields. ymmv</p>
<p>"The word “honors” seems to be thrown around a lot lately, and I think we all need to be careful and read the fine print. "</p>
<p>-Honors is thorwon around when people are comparing student population. Many Honors are mostly filled with valedictorians from private (and some top public) HS’s. This is in response to posts pointing to intellectual level of kids going to various schools and opportunites there. Opportunities for Honors kids at average state UG’s are tremendous. Yes, they are hand picked for more opportunites than the rest of student body at these state schools and arguably more than these top kids would have at Elite colleges where they would be just a face in a crowd. State schools express their love to these top caliber kids in many ways, not just financial. These opportunites have major if not the most significant impact on future of these kids. They result in great EC’s, LOR’s and acceptances to places that are not widely open to others. They enjoy close relationships with profs, they remember them by first name. Star status is a huge advantage at any place.</p>
<p>IMO, it is not better to be the top of the middle than the middle of the top. Whether we are talking about education, sports programs or what have you, the impact of your peers/the group you interact with is important.</p>
<p>As for “honors” programs, totally agree that they can not be looked at as equals across the board. Here, for example, is the minimum requirement for admission to an Honors program (special housing, smaller classes, etc at a State U that will remain unnamed:</p>
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<p>A 27 ACT and 1210 qualifies for honors? Interesting…</p>
<p>^^^^^At a certain state flagship I know of, the minimum requirements as stated on the website wouldn’t get you anywhere near an honors class, due to the competition to be accepted to it.</p>
<p>Then why set the bar so low? Makes no sense. If an honors program is supposed to be for, say the top 10% (scholastically) of the student body, then the requirements should be stringent such that they can meet the needs of those who qualify. JMO</p>
<p>If an ACT of 27 and SAT of 1210/1600 is the top 10% of their class, then that is a different population than, say the top 10% at Michigan. Honors at one school is not the same as honors at another.</p>
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<p>I certainly would DEPENDING on major. If my daughter wanted to go to nursing school, absolutely not. Some of the best nursing schools are at state institutions and have access to some of the best research/teaching facilities in the nation. If she wanted to be an investment banker or a lawyer in NYC, then it would seem the northeast private school business school or law school track would make better sense. If she wants to be an oil and gas specialist in Texas, then sending her to an expensive private on the east coast wouldn’t be necessary; if she wants to be a veterinarian and live in Dallas, then A & M would seem the way to go and so on and so forth.</p>
<p>What they want to do professionally and personally and where they want to do it after graduation would certainly factor into it.</p>
<p>As we know, many students change their major one if not more times in college (both my s’s changed their majors, and they each thought they were pretty certain what they wanted to major in when they applied to college). What if she started out saying she wanted to be a nurse, but changed her mind later?</p>
<p>^^^that’s always a possibility. Then you are looking at a transfer situation, either to a private or another institution which has what she needs. I am in the camp that the expensive privates are often fantastic schools, but not the only place to get a good education. In looking at state universities, it’s always important that they offer a lot of good majors, so that it wouldn’t necessarily mandate leaving the institution in the event of a change of major.</p>