Can anyone speak to good physics program in PA that would offer dual admissions with PA community colleges?
Student is currently at community college that has dual admission agreements with Temple, ESU, SJU, Drexel, La Salle, Chestnut Hill, Kutztown, Arcadia, etc.
Is studying math with the intention of completing a math or physics degree at a school that has a strong physics department. Kutztown has 6 different physics majors, I know. I’m wondering which schools are known for undergraduate research especially?
Students was a solid honors student in HS but not stellar (3.8 weighted GPA) who left HS to do math at CC instead of junior and senior year because was not on a calculus track at HS. SAT won’t matter since she’d be direct transferring her Associate’s but she had a 1310 beginning of sophomore year with 720CR and 590Math. That math section will likely come up a lot so maybe a 1450 expected SAT when she takes it again? It’s always a possibility to apply as a freshman instead of transferring but I think, given her profile, she’ll do better off directly transferring to a state school as a junior if there is a good program. No idea how she will do in CC - grades come out later and her math profs are known for grading very harshly - they weed.
Is she still technically in high school, but taking college courses while in high school, or has she graduated high school? That can make a difference in whether colleges will require her to apply as a transfer, or allow her to apply as frosh. Policies may differ at each college, as can the advantages of frosh versus transfer. In many cases, frosh entry is better for merit scholarships, and if the community college does not have good coverage of the frosh/soph courses for the student’s intended major at the four year colleges.
All the dual admission schools (by dual admissions I mean colleges she has signed agreements for that she can transfer all her credits into their degree programs from CC - nothing to do with HS dual admissions) we talked to said they didn’t care, but she is registered as a homeschooler with the state and is technically still a HS student to satisfy compulsory school laws. The reason is she was too young to actually drop out of HS when she left and she’s not old enough to take the GED in our state (other states have different rules).
I can graduate her from HS at the end of this semester with a worthless “diploma” but her CC tuition will triple and the colleges she talked to said they don’t give a fig about her homeschool status and they won’t even care about seeing her SAT. On paper (ie. her transcript) she’s listed exactly the same as regular adult students. It’s still a dilemma if she wanted to apply to a school like MIT which will not take credits earned dually but the admissions officers we talked to at the kind of school she’s likely to go to didn’t seem to give a hoot so I’m not worried about it.
She will not get merit scholarships as a HS graduate because her HS grades are average (3.79 weighted) although she has the potential to do OK on the SAT - maybe as high as 1500 if her math section improves a lot (at the end of 9th grade she had 720CR/590M. She went to a high school with very harsh grading where more kids will literally end up attending Ivies than actually have perfect 4.0 unweighted GPAs so it’s hard for those kids to get merit even if they are getting into elite schools. There is really no advantage to applying as a freshman that I can see since she will likely get an all loans package anyway. In any case, the schools where it was a question said that they would push her application around to see where she would get the most money. One school has a 12 credit transfer limit so I can’t imagine that could ever be worth it if you have guaranteed transfer of 60 credits as a dual admitted CC/4 year school transfer student.
One of the reasons it seems to me that transfers are so dicey for students who dual admit as high schoolers is because they are inevitably advised to complete an AA in Liberal Arts or they take random classes at the HS with non-PhD teachers. Colleges don’t seem to like those classes taught by HS teachers. Declaring Liberal Arts as a major if they are really going through with a full associates leaves them out of the loop for advanced classes and they bulk up on a ton of classes that may or may not get them where they want to go with a BA. Every admission officer she talked just did not seem to care at all since she was already a declared major who would be transferring in with advanced classes (in Math). I think it’s the kind of thing where time will tell. Hardly anyone does what she’s doing.
She should apply as a freshman for the scholarships (those typically depend on test scores more than GPA as long as a threshold has been met wrt weighted GPA.)
Freshmen get the best aid and scholarships.
BUT once admitted… She’d get advanced standing 
so she wouldn’t lose anything and could have freshman scholarships and sophomore standing overall and taking junior level math classes 
Temple is the best for Physics among those you listed. She should apply to the Honors College.
Just because she applies as a freshman doesn’t mean she won’t get credit or junior standing when she actually begins classes at any of those colleges. Going in as a freshman would open up all the freshmen scholarships, and transfer FA is usually not as good as the freshman awards She might even get freshman awards good for 4 years and that might take her into grad studies as well.
If the community college has articulation agreements with those schools, those agreements will control how she is admitted, as a freshman or as a transfer students. Many high school students earn AA degrees but are still admitted as freshmen.
There is going to be a large cost difference between Drexel and Kutztown. She may like one school over another for fit or for the physics dept. It sounds like you have two years to look at them all.
Also, depending on your financial situation, if she is VERY advanced in math (diff equations and higher at the end of senior year) and your income is below 125k, it may be worth it for you to run the NPC on Penn and Bryn Mawr.
Has she started on test prep (Khan academy, Erica Melzer’s books, PwN SAT math…)?
Thank you for the Temple rec. I had my reservations about Temple because the word on the street at CCP is that it’s better to take engineering prereqs at CCP rather than go to Temple freshman and sophomore year. I wasn’t sure how it would be for pure math/theoretical physics. She will probably complete a BA in Math. Temple’s STEM admissions officers were very inclined towards her. She kept their cards so she can contact them again.
@twoinanddone what I’ve been told is that no matter how she goes in they will consider her a freshman for financial aid purposes (for most of the school I’ve posed the question to. I’m not sure I understand how that works but that’s what she’s been told. Drexel’s a hot mess. She’s taken a few classes there but they are extremely disorganized and the classes disappointing (just general core classes). The students are extremely disengaged. I don’t know that she would consider Drexel unless they gave her a crazy generous financial aid offer which I don’t think will be forthcoming.
What math class is she currently taking (she’s a junior, right)?
Does she take other classes at the cc or math/physics only?
What’s your EFC and can you afford it?
Even though they don’t have a formal agreement, look into PSU and Pitt. Don’t forget to run the NPC on Bryn Mawr and Penn.
@MYOS1634 she’ll end with differential equations and Calculus III. She will go for the physics sequence and a CS certificate (just one extra class). I don’t know how advanced that is since my home is in the humanities. She was not smart enough to even be on the regular calculus track at her HS which is why she left (so she could take calculus sooner) let alone get into AP or honors Algebra or Precalc, although she did test into Honors Physics and took it. She did not do well on the Physics SAT Subject test, though (660, I think?). I don’t even know if she’ll pass her classes this year on the first try although she says she’s doing about average. She has As in her non-math classes. She’s hoping for C’s in Calc I and Discrete Math. The grading is pretty harsh. Penn rejected her for HS scholars so I can’t imagine she has a chance at being admitted. She’s actually a legacy at Haverford but her grades are so touchy. There are just a lot of kids with much better grades and better standardized test scores. If she takes college classes and just does OK, I don’t think SAT’s will matter much to schools looking at her even if they are very high. I think the question is more will they value her math classes even if she’s not making As?
OP, is this your kid? Physics is a grindingly difficult major, and it sounds like her grades are not great. What does she plan to do with it?
Why is she taking those classes at the cc if she’s struggling? It’s ok to challenge herself but top colleges would have been fine with a senior taking precalculus.
Why math or physics?
Yes, standardized tests matter a lot, as well as grades and rigor.
If the student can’t get a B in a class then they ought to decrease rigor by one level and strive for an A.
The best indication of college success is…college success. It’s good she’s getting As in her other classes but colleges will be curious, as we are, as to why she thinks she can major in math or physics if she’s not getting a B or higher in her intoductory CC math classes. If she thinks her grades will end up being a B she’s ok.
@intparent yes, it is my kid. I think she’s just a B student who wants to learn something that only A students ever typically pursue because the B students are discouraged out of it. I don’t know that that is a bad thing, necessarily. She just has to be realistic. Right now she wants to do PhD, then research. I try to keep her down to earth. You have to put it in perspective, though, too. Probably close to a fifth of her graduating HS class will go on to Ivies with an additional fifth being accepted at other elite universities. She was not really smart/savvy enough for opportunities at that school but at a lot of schools she’d be a top student - which is why she left to get more opportunities to study at an advanced level. She got a C in Geometry sophomore year (her only C) and her teacher told me she was one of his top students and he would love to write her a recommendation to study math in college. I was stunned. Her friends who had the same teacher all had to go to summer school. She felt lucky to have passed. These are kids in the 90+ %ile for math standardized test scores who should have no problem getting As and Bs without having to blink. Her school just has a tradition of very harsh grading. Out of 650 sophomores last year, only 17 got straight As for the year. Many more times as many kids will get into an Ivy than will graduate with a perfect GPA from that school. I am not sure why it’s like that but it’s had a very competitive grading structure for years (I went there). She lacks that ambitious gene, though. She just likes to do stuff she’s interested in and all that grades nonsense doesn’t hit home to her. She loves what she is doing and she’s only 15 and she’s taking college math having never taken anything beyond Algebra 1 and Geometry in HS. Her dad just took the same class she’s taking now at the graduate level in Penn Engineering and he said her class was too hard for him. I’m fine if she gets a C. She just has to realize that she may have to revise her expectations for her future based on ability to pay/lack of merit aid. If she really flubs it, she may have to settle for just an Associate’s.
@MYOS1634 she’s taking the Freshman sequence for the community college math major (Calc 1 and Discrete Math) plus a lab science and freshman comp. She’s not in HS at all except in the sense that I sent in the form registering her as a homeschooler for this year. Once she’s done this year’s English classes, she could graduate with a homeschool diploma but not before because she needs 4 years of English. She’s a junior for homeschool purposes, I guess, and a freshman for college purposes. But she’s not involved in HS at all. She is officially a math major in college. She was able to pass out of everything except precalc which she did this summer before she started her major courses.
@MYOS1634 she just wanted to learn calculus sooner so she could understand calculus-based physics. Honestly, I have no idea if she will get Bs or Fs. In one class, the only grade is the final exam. In the other class, the grading system is extremely complicated (you accrue points). She did “good” when she got 21/51 on her first exam and “good” meant she should stay in the class (people who got 0-8/51 were told they should drop). Honestly, my impression is a lot of STEM is like this. My friend’s son is at MIT. He recently got a 56% on an exam and the prof congratulated him for having scored among the highest in the class. Like a lot of young people, she’s motivated by what she’s learning but short on the practicals of how to navigate to where she wants to be (research). She would have gone insane if she’d stayed in her HS, though. It was a horrible learning environment. Lots of grade-grubbing. Not a lot of real learning. Her goals have nothing to do with getting into a top college. That was shoved down her throat at her high school (which had 3 suicides her freshman year). She is just very curious about math and physics and wanted to learn a lot more of it than her HS would have offered her. I mean, she works on mathematical proofs in her spare time for fun. She used to lug a calculus book to school with her to read in boring classes and at lunch. Math and physics is just her life right now. It’s just where she’s at. She won’t get into an elite college but if she can go to a school junior and senior year of college where she can do some undergraduate research, she’d be happy.
Calculus 3 and differential equations are normally college sophomore level math courses, so she is considerably ahead of the normal sequence if she is taking them while in high school (even nominally) and doing well.
Since she is still technically in high school, it is best to have her keep that status for now, since (as has been noted by many here) entering as a frosh is generally much more favorable than entering as a transfer for scholarships. Also, frosh admission stats put out by colleges are usually much more transparent than transfer admission stats, so you may have a better idea of reach/match/safety for frosh admission than transfer admission.
My concern is that honestly, she isn’t very likely to get into a physics PhD program if she has consistently low math grades. I have a D who is a Physics PhD student now, so have watched the grad school application process pretty closely in recent years. I get wanting to encourage her to do what she is interested in – but she will need to step up her grades to get into a funded program.
The reason college is hard is because it is college and, honestly, I don’t think she was ready for it. She’s 15 and taking classes that many 20 year olds are taking after having taken a full set of high school math classes. The normal sequence isn’t to jump from geometry to college Calc I. My daughter didn’t have Calc I until her first year of college, but she had taken 4 years of high school math. More than half of her Calc I class had taken it in high school but were repeating it. It was a ton of work for her. She did ALL the problems, did extra problems on Kahn academy, studied with an athlete who missed class a lot (she helped him review and he helped her with stuff she didn’t get the first time), went to office hours, and had mandatory study tables 4 nights per week. My nephew also took Calc I as a freshman in college, after 4 years of high school math. He got a D and got to take it again.
You should check what he articulation agreements require. Is it a guarantee for admissions to those schools or just a guarantee that IF she’s admitted, she’ll get credit for those courses? Often the high school gpa includes any courses taken as duel enrollment or before high school graduation. If she has C’s and D’s in those math classes, it is not going to help the gpa. She’s taking a freshman composition class and being compared to students who have several extra years of experience.
If she wants to get into the BEST physics dept in the colleges you listed, she’s going to have to get into the school first, and if her grades aren’t at the top level, she won’t get in. Work on the grades now, and worry about the PhD after she gets in.
@intparent I have no idea how she will do in this program, honestly. I’ve talked to her about her chances for her to even finish a BA in Math/Physics since she may need merit aid to finance her continued studies. She can’t get that with so-so grades in her major although, to be fair, she hasn’t gotten any grades yet in her math classes and I am just assuming she will be a C student or even struggle to pass. I’ve told her to take the class again if she thinks she can improve her grade and/or understand the material better. I think she’s not cut out for the competition of pursuing academic studies to that point of getting a PhD - she’s never been one to connect those dots of academic advancement easily. But she’ll have to figure that out on her own. Even if she were a perfect candidate, the state of funding is not great so even a genius candidate with a perfect academic record and groundbreaking undergraduate research would need to have that talk anyway. At this point she just needs to decide where to finish her degree and make sure she finishes. She’ll be applying in just a year for wherever she plans to get her BA from. It’s hard because she’s very interested in what is widely considered a field only for super smart people. I mean, no one expects every anthropology major to be a Ruth Benedict but we all think every physics major should be a Stephen Hawking. It’s unfair but it is the perception, unfortunately. She is also only 15. She may completely change her mind.
I think I’ve given you guys the impression she is a terrible student which can’t be farther from the truth. She earned honors both years she attended high school. In her first college math class (precalc as a prereq for her major), she got a B+ or and A- (can’t remember which). She did get one C in her life in geometry but her teacher said she was one of his top students and that he would write her a recommendation to study math in college. Her major classes seem extraordinarily difficult but no grades are in and, otherwise, she has all As (in English and Chem). She could end up with straight As for all I know. She is hanging on and thriving when a lot of the adult students have dropped out, maybe even a majority. She does have to work at it, though, and the grading seems very, very tough which is why I’m concerned.
The agreements are dual enrollment so, basically, right now all of the colleges where she has signed the papers have to take her unless her GPA dips below 2.5 or so. She is considered to be enrolled at both schools so long as she meets minimum GPA requirements.
I really appreciate all of the information, especially the poster who took the time to answer my question. Temple has been a favorite based on interactions with staff so it’s nice to hear an endorsement of their academic programs. They also have a nice program where you can do a full math major alongside a teaching certificate that does not cut into the coursework required for grad school admissions, so it gives you different options.