<p>That's a bummer to hear, groovygeek. Ds just got a brochure today from Pomona, and I fell in love with the place! Maybe I can attend some day. :)</p>
<p>I think Pizza means the list of master's level universities in the West where Santa Clara is #1. Pizza, I think thumper meant that Santa Clara was not on the National university of national LAC list.</p>
<p>For privacy reasons, I won't go into the wide variety of opportunities that my DS has taken advantage of at Pomona. If Dad II, or anyone is interested in specifics about our experience with the school, feel free to pm me. It is not a "small" place, by any means.<br>
My sophomore son has an internship this semester working for a non-profit in the Los Angeles area. He leaves campus one day a week, works 7-4 at the location doing a variety of things from grant writing to marketing. Pomona pays him a decent wage for this experience and he gets course credit.
In the year and a half that he has been there, he has held 3 different jobs for the school in areas of specific interest to him either academically or artistically. The profs are extremely accessible and on the lookout for students interested in their fields, as they have no grad students to work with and they do continue to research and and publish. This summer my DS will have the opportunity to be a collaborator on a research project in the exact area of study that he hopes to pursue after college, and get paid doing it.
It may be a fishbowl in the sense that you will be known, as it is hard to hide. If you're the type that prefers anonymity, you may not be comfortable with the kind of engagement that comes with an "everybody knows your name" kind of place, but don't think opportunities for growth and variety are in short supply, because it's not the case.</p>
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<blockquote> <p>list of master's level universities in the West where Santa Clara is #1. Pizza, I think thumper meant that Santa Clara was not on the National university of national LAC list.>></p> </blockquote>
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<p>Yes...this is what I mean. Santa Clara is NOT on the University list or the LAC list. It is on the Master's list...and no one ever seems to mention those schools. For some students, these are the perfect "in between" option. Santa Clara, for example, has about 8500 total students (including their grad schools and law school), but only 4500 or so undergrads. It has the "feel" of a smaller school. I would urge folks to check out these Master Colleges in their regions. In my opinion, these are underrated schools that get very little "press" here or anywhere else. </p>
<p>We heard about Santa Clara from a poster on this board. Otherwise we would never have known it existed. Please note...I'm not pushing this particular school...but I am urging folks to look at schools in this category.</p>
<p>Much has been said about the availability of graduate courses for those at large research universities. I can honestly say that my DS has already had more opportunities to dig deeply into his intended field, with a close working relationship with the "big cheese" prof at Pomona, than my DS had at her big league university at the same point in her education. It wasn't until late in her junior year that DD had an opportunity to take a seminar of the size and intensity(graduate level specialization) that my DS has had since second semester freshman year. They don't have "grad courses" per se at LACs, but they do have seminars highly specialized and in depth for majors involving current ongoing research with their professors. At what point the students take advantage of this type of mentoring is largely up to them.</p>
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From our visits it really seems a matter of his personal tastes more than anything. . . . The differences are relatively subtle to my S. . . .Williams so well regarded, but the most rural
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<p>Madville, congratulations to your son on some magnificent choices and to you for your energetic advocacy! I remember you both from your thread last fall and I’m glad to see that things have worked out so well.</p>
<p>I don’t see that he could make a bad choice. Since I’m most familiar with Williams that’s the one I will concentrate on, but I am firmly of the belief that he will get an excellent education at any of his options – including some of his other admits that didn’t make the final cut.</p>
<p>Williams is all about being rural: some say isolated, I like to say insular, literally an island, an ivory tower, an idyllic community in a profoundly beautiful natural settling where the mind and body are both nourished. For my son -- Eagle Scout, snowboarder, trekker, mountain climber, nature lover, artist, poet, thinker, world traveler – this was the perfect environment. For someone else, it may be too much fresh air and not enough urban heart beat. </p>
<p>As you may remember, I live in Asia and have been involved with Asian culture, politics and trade – East, Southeast, and South – my whole career. Even though my son’s focus was fine art, having grown up in Asia he was attuned to Williams’ offerings in Asian culture, politics, arts, history, economics etc. and was not disappointed. The master’s program at the Center for Development Economics is a case in point. Undergraduates may take advantage of the global brain power that his program attracts. CDE</a> Home</p>
<p>Overall, the depth and breadth of the faculty’s experience is breathtaking and the course offerings both on and off campus open up the whole of the world’s intellectual diversity. [Susan Schwab the USTR and cabinet member is a Williams grad which to me is significant as an indicator of the political balance of the student body which I would consider a point of differentiation between Williams and Amherst and Middlebury.]</p>
<p>Bottom line, he can’t go wrong. So flip a multi-sided coin and celebrate!</p>
<p>PS, My son would be glad to talk to your son if he'd like a personal contact. He's graduated and living in Boston now, but like a lot of Williams alums he loves to proselytize</p>
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<blockquote> <p>Yes, we did spend 15 seconds noting the Princeton degree, and then we moved on. Had it been a BYU or Washington State degree, it might have been another story.<<</p> </blockquote>
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<p>Just curious, mini, how the story might have been different had it been a BYU or WSU degree. You would have spent more or less time on the candidate?</p>
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So, students attending a LAC may lack of research opportunity like a large university?
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<p>DadII, No, I don't think you can make that general statement either way. There is simply too wide a range among individual universities and individual LACs. </p>
<p>To go back to your original example, Williams vs Duke, I would think that the undergraduate research opportunities at Williams would compare favorably to Duke's. Maybe, they would even be better, since there would be less competition from graduate students. Same goes for graduate and professional school admissions: Williams vs Duke? I'd have to give Williams the edge there just because of the personal connection.</p>
<p>My son was involved in the arts, so I’m not qualified to give you personal examples, but I know his science friends did very well in research, internships, summer jobs and post graduate opportunities.</p>
<p>I know you're just using Williams and Duke as a "what if" scenario, but I think the comparison is a good case in point because their student bodies share similar personalities and they are on a similar academic level. If a student had the choice of one over the other, and if all else, especially the money, were equal, the decision would have to be made on size and comparative size-related factors, both social and academic.</p>
<p>I went to a mega-big university and received an excellent education. Forty years later, wherever I go in the world, people recognize the University of Michigan and my association has opened doors for me, both professional and social. Williams is not a household world, in America and certainly not worldwide. If recognition is important, then don’t choose a small LAC!</p>
<p>Looking back on the person I was at 17 – having grown up in a protected Midwestern suburb – the opportunities offered by my UMich education were overwhelming to me. I didn’t take advantage of a fraction of them. My son on the other hand (even though his personality is far more outgoing than mine and his experience far more global) benefited profoundly from the personal experience that Williams provided. And, a year later, he’s still benefiting through networks, contacts, friends and professors.</p>
<p>Dad II, I would definitely caution not to base college applications on the fact that some schools have a higher admit rate for boys than for girls. IF your S likes two schools equally & one has a higher boy admit rate, then it might make sense to carefully consider the one with the higher boy admit rate. But simply to focus on schools with higher boy admit rates is not a good idea.</p>
<p>As others have stated, it is a good idea to have your son make a list of what he wants in a school. Then you can help him find schools of each type (LAC, small uni, large uni, masters college, etc) that have the qualities he wants. Narrow your search by doing research online & by reading the info the schools send to your home. Visit some schools of each type, if possible. Apply to a variety of schools that he thinks he might like to attend.</p>
<p>My D KNEW she didn't want a large university. She was the only one in her group of friends who did not apply to UMich. Instead, she focused on LACs of all sizes and small universities. She applied to a variety of LACs (1000 students to 2800 students) and small universities (up to 6800 students). In the end, she chose a larger LAC. </p>
<p>Early in her freshman year, my D changed her mind about what she wanted to do academically. While her school has wonderful profs & opportunities in her chosen major, the courses were not especially interesting to her. She found another school that had courses that were exactly what she wanted, and she applied for a transfer. I think this could have happened to her at any school, large or small. Because she was pretty specific in her interests, even a large university may not have offered what she really wanted.</p>
<p>My S is the same age as your S. He knows for a fact that he does not want a small LAC. He wants a small to medium sized university. Because music is a very important hobby for him, he will be looking for a school where he can indulge his particular musical interests. As a snowboarder, he will look for schools with opportunities for snowboarding ... but that will not be a deciding factor. He won't need to be near a mall (one of his sister's "must haves")! His likes/dislikes are his own, and only he can decide what fits him. Make sure you talk with your son and help him find a place that will allow him to be happy and to grow academically.</p>
<p>Dad II, from the legwork S1 has done, there are plenty of research opportunities at LACs. One of the attractions, as he has found and others have mentioned, is that there are no grad students and so profs have undergrads as willing and able researchers, lab assistants, etc.</p>
<p>In some cases, where a student might have taken advanced courses well beyond AP in a particular subject, it is important to check that colleges (of any size and stripe) can offer challenging coursework for four years -- or that there are sufficient other opportunities (independent study with a prof, in-depth research, advisors who can cut through red tape) that make the experience a valuable one.</p>
<p>An essay on sciences at liberal arts colleges and universities by Thomas Cech -- Nobel Prize chemist and head of the Howard Hughes Medical Institute (and amost President of Harvard).</p>
<p>MARINMOM- If you come back to this site and see this, I PM'd you.</p>