<p>…forgton to mention that I went to local non-ranked college and it does not matter where you go. The salary is determined primarily by location and as I said, the IT job is fun absolutely everywhere. Engineering companies primarily hire locally, most IT departments end up with locals also, but some people get into far away locations if they seek employment there.</p>
<p>Did anyone mention Case Western Reserve University?</p>
<p>We visited a slew of these type of schools.</p>
<ul>
<li><p>Rice is absolutely amazing in every way . . .brainy, quirky (in a good way) kids, terrific residential college system, nice size, beautiful campus, accessible to major city</p>
<ul>
<li>Rose-Hulman - I loved it, but son did not. I felt like there would be tremendous support at this school. The facilities are WAY above average for a school of that size. It is a very, very lovely small campus. The male/female ratio is poor. The tour guides came across as a little too “nerdy” for my very “all boy” son. It is also quite remote. For the right kid though I can see it being an absolute wonderful haven for four years. I was disappointed that my son didn’t like it.</li>
</ul></li>
</ul>
<p>Rochester Institute of Technology - - Amazing programatically. My friend’s child recently graduated with a degree specializing in cyber security and landed a 6 figure job immediately. They give a lot of money. Campus is clean and well maintained, but not attractive. Weather (lived there for 20 years) is horrendous.</p>
<p>My son looked a Lehigh, Lafayette, and Bucknell - - all three have strong engineering programs in the context of more of a liberal arts school. He preferred these greatly. University of Rochester would also fit into this category. I think Villanova as well.</p>
<p>Talk to your son about Engineering and get a feel if he is interested in it. I agree with MiamiDAP, its quite a different program. </p>
<p>CS degrees are offered as liberal arts degrees or as engineering degrees. It varies by school. Engineering programs are structured, have lots of math, and require basic engineering classes. CS liberal arts degrees are less structured and require broader courswork (humanities, language, etc). </p>
<p>Not to sterotype people, but often students who are left brain (math/logic) end up in the engineering school. If he as more of a social thinker he will probably do best in a balanced program.</p>
<p>Engineering type schools:
stanford
carnegie mellon
Michigan Tech</p>
<p>Liberal arts schools:
U of Wisconsin
Berkely
Carleton</p>
<p>"Not to sterotype people, but often students who are left brain (math/logic) end up in the engineering school. "
-This was exactly my mitake. I have always loved math and it was easy for me. Engineering - nope, not for me at all. Yes, it is using tons of math and this is an easy part. However, if you are not into trinkets and taking apart / putting together, I do not think you would fit into engineering. I myself cannot remember a single button on any divice and what it is for, I cannot operate simple TV (not that I am interested, hate it as most other electronic devices, I can barely use my cell) My brain is not wired to retain any information. IT does not need anything to remember. It requires pure analytical skills and ability to ask others (absolutely essential). That is why the Business knowledge is needed as most IT applications, including extrememly complex like Insurance are Business related.</p>
<p>Son majored in math but not applied math, added comp sci and works as a software developer/engineer (job title varies with old/new company) currently. Definitely theory not physical/practical type of person. I majored in Chemistry, NOT Chemical Engineering- went on to be an anesthesiologist which is hands on (unlike internal medicine). I’m the one who does the hands on stuff in our house- H does the mental stuff even though I could if I had to.</p>
<p>It sounds like the OP’s son isn’t sure what most appeals to him. A big reason to choose a school where he can either be part of the liberal arts math/science arena or the engineering school. Sometimes students don’t discover what they really want until experiencing college courses (son also did a lot of physics before settling on math). Be sure to pick schools that allow the flexibility of changing one’s mind after a few semesters.</p>
<p>Also- really look into your California system schools. A CA relative did grad work in NY state after UC Berkeley and prefers Northern CA to his childhood southern CA home (Indian parents). Your son could use his undergrad college years to experience life outside CA or he could stay with CA culture. It is somewhat of a culture shock to attend school in another part of the country. Your son (not you) needs to decide if he wants to leave home and which part of the country most appeals to him. It isn’t just climate/weather. There are cultural differences east to west and north to south.</p>
<p>Thank you, everyone, for your insightful responses!! I apologize for not replying sooner…life happened here. </p>
<p>Yes, the whole purpose of this thread was to look for safeties that will still challenge him intellectually. Some of the top tiers might be matches, but as we all know with selective admissions these days they’re all unpredictable. </p>
<p>Some clarifications/answers to questions. </p>
<p>Sorry, I was unclear…we will definitely apply to UCs. I was just venting and looking for more options. 
The UCs are so large, though. UC San Diego might be a good fit as the engineering dept is a separate, smaller college. He’s been there many times and likes the low key atmosphere of the campus. Of course, UCSD along with UCLA and UCB are all top tier. Mid-tier, he’ll apply to UC Irvine and possibly UCSC.</p>
<p>Small to mid-size schools are more attractive to us because he does very well with mentors and tends to be disorganized. Concerned he will get lost in the shuffle in a larger school.</p>
<p>Son is definitely interested in CS and engineering. Math might be a minor, a double major…or he may end up just taking interesting classes. Someone asked if he was the engineer type. All through the years he’s tinkered with electronics, building machines, robots, etc. His dad, grandfather and uncle are all engineers, and they agree he’s got the engineering aptitude.</p>
<p>CS has been his passion for the last 3 years. He is studying college level programming (post-AP CS) and lives, eats, dreams, breathes code. He goes back and forth between whether to study CS or engineering, and we told him he wouldn’t have to decide right away. So we would definitely want a school where he can explore both areas before deciding. Definitely would want CS as an engineering degree, not a liberal arts degree.</p>
<p>He is not a party kid. You know that old adage about college–study, sleep, or socialize, pick 2? He said he’d rather study and sleep. He has lots of friends, but the party scene is really not his thing. So I’m not sure a college with a heavy Greek scene would be a good fit for him.</p>
<p>FAFSA says our EFC is $30k. The same numbers plugged into MIT’s calculator came back $19k. We could probably swing around $20-25k. Would like to minimize costs since he is considering grad school and we have more kids behind him. If he lands a dream college, his grandparents are likely to kick in the difference.</p>
<p>Comments on colleges mentioned:
Cal Poly SLO–students need to declare major up front and it’s very difficult to switch. On the upside, we’ve heard from a current engineering student there that their dept is well funded, even with a surplus. The engineering labs are better equipped than the ones at UCLA.</p>
<p>USC–how strong is their CS dept? I’ve heard mixed reviews of the school overall. </p>
<p>MIT & Carnegie Mellon–already on the list, but they’re also selective. </p>
<p>Okay, colleges we will research after reading your posts (not sure of school sizes):
Santa Clara, University of Portland, Worchester Polytechnic, Rochester Institute of Tech, RPI, Rose Hulman, Illinois Institute of Tech, Georgia Tech, U Md (College Park), Purdue, U Mass Amherst, U of Wisconsin, U of Washington, Rice, Northwestern, UChicago, Minnesota, Virginia Tech, Stony Brook, NCSU, UW-Madison, UI-Champaign Urbana, Rice, Michigan, U of Penn, U of Rochester, Case Western, Lehigh, Lafayette, Bucknell. Whew! We have our work cut out for us!</p>
<p>I appreciated all the helpful tips and comments, such as looking at grad school rankings for possible research opportunities, honors programs, and more. Thank you, thank you, thank you!</p>
<p>
Realistically though, he’d be taking many courses all over campus along with other non-CS and non-engineering students for a number of the GEs, physics, maybe some math courses, etc.</p>
<p>However, in some of the engineering courses, especially some like the upper level CS courses, the class sizes are likely to be fairly small. </p>
<p>Regarding funding - realize that some of the UCs have received very large donations - especially from Qualcomm founders and Broadcom founders. The ‘Jacobs School of Engineering’ at UCSD has received some pretty huge donations (over $100M) from Irwin Jacobs of Qualcomm. The ‘Henry Samueli School of Engineering’ at UCLA has received significant donations from Samueli of Broadcom. Similar situations exist for the schools of engineering at some of the other UCs (and some other schools - including some privates such as USC from Viterbi of Qualcomm). This means that while there may be some challenges due to the budget the state provides to the UCs, since that budget comprises a relatively small percentage that comes from the state and certain areas (such as engineering and computer science) have received significant external funding. This is why it’s not easy to use a broad brush in statements regarding budget impacts - despite hyped media coverage. I’m not saying there’s no impact - just that make sure you have current objective info from people at the particular college ideally in the particular major.</p>
<p>If I recall correctly, I think USC’s engineering department is ranked (USNWR) in the general area of UCLA and UCSD.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>If he is seriously interested in adding a second major in math, it may be easier to do that from a CS major that is not under an engineering umbrella. However, a CS major under an engineering umbrella is more likely to be ABET accredited, if he is concerned about that for going into patent law.</p>
<p>Try the net price calculators on each college, since each college may calculate EFC differently (e.g. UCs use FAFSA only, but many other school have their own method), and each school may have a different ESC (expected student contribution of work earnings and/or student loans).</p>
<p>Glad & UCB, thank you for those insights!</p>
<p>"safeties that will still challenge him intellectually’
-I guarantee you that absolutely ANY college, including any unknown local college will challenge him intellectually, no exceptions. So, this criteria may be dismissed. He may look for colleges where he feels “at home”, being misearable for 4 years will not produce good results.</p>
<p>@musubi-</p>
<p>Our oldest daughter is starting second year at Rose-Hulman and loves it.</p>
<p>What makes it a good fit or her that might or might not make it a fit for your son?
Culture is one of “challenge with support” and collaborative projects and study groups are common.
Very easy to double major, minor, etc. Generous with AP credit. Expect kids to graduate in four years and support them to make this happen. Daughter on track to finish in four years with ChemE major, two minors. If all goes well, she will also complete a masters in the fourth year. Great career fairs. Most kids start interning or find summer jobs in their fields by sophomore summer. Job placement rate by graduation is very high, even for engineering schools.
Good merit aid, but school is expensive. Lots of grading, etc. jobs available.
Small, really small. Limited social scene, more emphasis on friendships than dating. About 75% male - my daughter’s closest friend circle is about 50/50 guys/girls. Has some Greek life, with strong emphasis on service and little on partying. Partying is available but you really have to seek it. Terre Haute is also small.
Community of students/faculty really help each other out. Profs are very accesible. Student resident assistants and tutors are great. Very easy to find a ride, etc. Dorms are open and kids often leave doors wide open. There is occasional petty theft, but shockingly low. Everybody knows everybody.
Lots of kids from Midwest, but a fair amount of diversity too - includes kids from both coasts and international. </p>
<p>Good luck with your son’s search!</p>
<p>
So not true. I can name you dozens of colleges in our area that would have provided no challenge at all to our computer science math guy. They just don’t offer the courses. Happily there are lots and lots of fine engineering schools and because of ABET accreditation their offerings are pretty similar, and most kids don’t have much engineering before they arrive.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>For any major, there exist colleges which do not have suitable degree programs or course offerings in that major, so the above statement is false.</p>
<p>
</p>
<p>It’s also not true if they do have the degree program one is looking for. I’ve seen multiple higher capable kids head off to much lower level colleges and come home underwhelmed wishing they had chosen elsewhere. It’s very much akin to a highly capable high school student taking a low-level high school class rather than the honors or college-bound class. Some do it wanting “easy” then find themselves bored stiff.</p>
<p>I will grant that ABET engineering is not likely to be such a program, but there are plenty of others out there where the quality varies drastically. If the stats fit the student, one is often fine. Being in the top 25% is not bad, but being super over the top into it can, and often does, produce boredom. The culture of the students is generally different too (preferring academic inquiry to ???).</p>
<p>Momof2, thank you for the wonderful feedback on Rose Hulman! Definitely on our radar to investigate now. :)</p>
<p>I agree with mathmom, ucbalumnus and Creekland. I have looked at colleges that would not challenge my son intellectually. Some don’t have a CS major at all. Some have just a spattering of CS courses, most which would duplicate what he has already taken. He would run out of courses.</p>
<p>There’s also the issue Creekland brought up: student culture. He is invigorated when he’s around other students who are excited about learning. He’s been in groups where the other students were apathetic, and they were frustrating and discouraging experiences.</p>
<p>Thanks for all the insights and college leads!</p>
<p>Yet another consideration - where he wants to work when he’s done. A lot of companies recruit for CS grads from the more local colleges, especially if the more local ones have excellent programs. It doesn’t mean they wouldn’t hire from elsewhere - just that they may not actively recruit from some of the other ones. This is especially true for software companies outside of the more well known small handful that most people think of (Microsoft, Google, FB, etc.). There are thousands of companies that hire CS grads and many of them more actively seek people form a more local area. Being more local (like within the state of California) also makes it easier for the student to do face to face interviews.</p>
<p>Some colleges post their recruiting events online and they can be helpful to give an idea of which companies actively recruit on campus.</p>
<p>It’s not a requirement to go local of course since people do get hired from long distances - but something to consider although certainly not something that should prevent someone from considering MIT, CMU, some of the top UCs, etc.</p>
<p>Depends what one’s definition of intellectual challenge really is… I breezed thru Purdue (grad school) in a very highly ranked engineering school, does it mean I’m really smart or the program is really easy? nope. I liked the stuff but did not find it very ‘challenging’… But that’s grad school.</p>
<p>For undergrad STEM, in my view, the challenge is not coursework - anyone can do the coursework assuming they get admitted with the right numbers. It’s research, interesting curriculums, interesting classes, interesting professors, and interesting research opportunities. An interesting major also helps. In CS, cool stuff is a dime a dozen (I have undergrad and grad CS degrees). It’s not like some hapless undergrad who can barely find the right dining hall will come up with some uber-good software architecture that will save the planet. You want interesting stuff, choose a more ‘interesting’ major to begin with, say, Computational Neuroscience or some such. Find a school that has lots of research opportunities and do your best to get in and work on the cool stuff. </p>
<p>In general, intellectual challenge is either looking very deep, very early in the program, or applying vanilla flavored engineering or science principles to off the wall stuff, again, early on. And hands on. Nothing destroys intellectual curiosity than sitting in a lecture hall watching PowerPoint slides…</p>
<p>As you are college shopping, look for ones with good opportunities/connections for co-op or internships.</p>
<p>definitely look at schools’ grad departments in interested fields. Also look at required courses and available courses. It sounds like computer science/engineering are in his sites. However, he may find advanced (beyond calculus) math intriguing so he should see which courses are crosslisted in both math and comp sci. Places like Amazon and Google look far beyond the west coast when recruiting so if he is interested in the big leagues (including more than those two) he shouldn’t feel as though he is best off in California.</p>
<p>Add my agreement that not all colleges can offer the challenges needed. The peer group matters. You don’t want him being the best on campus, you want him to have challenging peers.</p>