Plebe Summer Pictures

<p>I don't see how security concerns is the purvue of those who "lean to the left" or the "right". It should be everyone's concern. The fact that there appear to be significant differences between the precautions taken at one service academy vs another tells me that either one may be too "tight" or another may be too "lax" (WP doesn't issue "parent passes"--and publishing a "typical day" is not the same as publishing a schedule). In the end, their contents are too precious and it doesn't seem unreasonable to have caution trump "tourist attraction" when it comes to these Military establishments. Being a nation at war that has to be our first priority. I can't speak for the other SA's but more than once cadets were graduated early because of an immediate need for officers in our armed forces (most recently WW2) caused by the need to lead an army that found itself undermanned at the start of a global war (sound familiar?). I would hate to think that their training would be distracted in any way. The way cadets train today (and the things they learn) has changed dramatically just in the last two years because of events in the Middle East. I would hope that Navy is also making adjustments (at least for those going into the Marine Corps) and those have to include on-post security. Our mids and cadets are all about to embark on a serious business and it starts the day they enter the SA, not the day they graduate from it. I will be curious to hear my cadet's impressions of the AF Academy with regard to this topic when she returns from her exchange program there this coming semester.</p>

<p>^^^Why does Navy's security or your impression of lack there of really concern you when you do not have a child on the yard? </p>

<p>
[quote]
publishing a "typical day" is not the same as publishing a schedule

[/quote]
Exactly where do you think Thorntons gets the information to put on their approved web site. Do you not think that maybe this actually comes from the Academy - novel thought. Why would a Company officer post the very same information on a yahoo group that has the same registration features that the Thornton site has - just his was free?</p>

<p>Obviously USNA does it their way and USMA does it their way. I would never dream of posting on the USMA thread things that I thought the Army was doing wrong - why do you seem to need to post your preceived inadequacies about the Navy (USNA)? </p>

<p>As for political you have to admit the right concervative talk radio would like to make us all believe that we are not safe as you also try to point out. Personally, I will not live my life in fear. It is probably more realistic to be fearful of sending a child into a highschool or even a college campus. IMO </p>

<p>As far as training being distracted...ask a Mid who has gone through plebe summer with women running around taking pictures, Thorntons taking pictures, Company Officer hosting a yahoo group, Mids being stopped while on their outing to DC so that tourist can photograph their daughters with Men in Uniform, tourists driving around the yard - if his training was distracted and somehow inferior - he will look at you blankly and ask you if you are joking or more so what in the h*** are you talking about?</p>

<p>I think I'll just go back to where I came from.....
However, you are welcome to drop by the USMA threads and post your observations. Hopefully you won't find us too arrogant.</p>

<p>"I thought you always leaned to the left yet your posts here make me beleive (sic) that you are way farther right than you maybe think you are...." -profmom</p>

<p>Only simple minds would make the quantum leap of analyzing one's basic values based on intermittent Internet postings. Weren't you listening the day they covered 'stereotyping' in social psychology? Don't patronize me; I know where I stand and it's not for you to judge lady.</p>

<p>You also missed my quite obvious point, but I will spell it out. My point was that there are many pictures taken during plebe summer and posted on the Internet for families to see training and parades. That's why I listed the websites. It's redundant to also have parents running around taking THOUSANDS of photos, and as Shogun pointed out, downright distracting from the overall objective of the summer training.</p>

<p>The security issue about the dining halls at all of the SA's is really quite obvious. At certain times the entire Corps/Brigade are all in the same place. I think it's crossed the minds of many mids/cadets throughout the history of these institutions. Mids have mentioned it to me. </p>

<p>"...I would never dream of posting on the USMA thread things that I thought the Army was doing wrong - why do you seem to need to post your preceived (sic) inadequacies about the Navy (USNA)?" -profmom</p>

<p>Who are you judge judy? You're not talking to your students.</p>

<p>Do you know how to use spell check?</p>

<p>I think the issue-at-hand has been discussed and we all have our own opinions. I highly doubt that any more discussion is going to persuade anyone. Why don't we just move on to another topic so we don't turn a debate into an internet fist-fight.</p>

<p>The two concerns I mentioned have been addressed, and action has already been taken. </p>

<ol>
<li><p>Windows out side the mess hall are no longer see-through (a visual barrier has been put up). A tighter watch is now in place (inside).</p></li>
<li><p>No longer will photos be allowed to be taken during chapel services, unless the photo is purposefully staged. An announcement by the chaplains should/will be made prior to the start of the service.</p></li>
<li><p>The two changes above are backed by the OIC of Plebe Summer and the chaplains at USNA. So, obviously, they care enough to make the changes.</p></li>
</ol>

<p>Oh lord.. its gettin' ugly! SHOW LOVE YOU GUYS!</p>

<p>jadler,
Thank you for helping resolve some of these issues.</p>

<p>Let me add my two cents on two issues. </p>

<p>Photos. The two "moms" taking photos are most likely part of a military family with ties to USNA. I know USNA2010 was last year. I sincerely appreciated her photos as they were timely, opened up my perspective as to what my son was actually experiencing, and I didn't have to hover to find out. She was a military spouse with access. It doesn't change what any Mid is experiencing. Having been a member of the cadre that walked down the steps in front of the crowd for each meal formation and parades, I often had my picture taken by tourists in the crowd. I never saw a one, don't have one in my collection. I don't have pictures from Plebe summer either, perhaps one or two taken in my room, that's it. It doesn't affect training as long as the person taking the photo doesn't go hollywood on them. Even for the cadre, they probably enjoy seeing their photo if they ever had the time to check the site out. </p>

<p>As for security. That poses another problem. I had the experience of going against the Navy's elite way back when in "red cell" exercises. Very few military bases are totally secure. Certain aspects of them are totally secure, other enclaves are not. I learned a great deal from the Seals and made changes as they recommended. We also exercised those changes in command wide exercises that lasted several days each quarter. We had parts of our base that were definitely a challenge for any Seal unit but that did not mean they couldn't gain access to the any of our bases, but the most important parts of the base posed greater risks to any attacker.</p>

<p>As far as the Naval Academy is concern, it is what it is and located where its been since 1845. I don't know if they exercise their security forces considering their mission and their student population. We shut down our bases for days and at times, no one went home to be with their family. Short security exercises don't even come close to the constraints posed by a long term hostage situation. On the other hand, most terrorist attacks are over in less than 60 seconds. VA Tech being one of the few exceptions. Security becomes important in minimizing the damage, taking care of the injured and then securing the area from additional attacks. The key for the academy is to make Midshipmen aware of the threat and somehow exercise that threat. It could be done on a pretty non-intrusive basis and yet increase awareness.</p>

<p>However, unless you move USNA to a remote island in Alaska, it will never be totally secure. A terrorist has the time to strike on their schedule with the resources it deems necessary. In less than a few days in Annapolis, a terrorist could strike the Academy and wreck havoc and am pretty sure could easily escape. With more money, more havoc. You can have all the gate guards you want, put barbed wire on all the walls surrounding the academy and it is still vulnerable from the sea...unless the state closes waterborne craft (that's all types), the academy is vulnerable. The fact still remains is that it is more secure that any other college in the US (even West Point, Kings Pt, USCGA are accessible by water). Is it 100% secure, the answer is no. Could it be more secure, yes...but not without giving up the freedom of Midshipmen to be students, and not without restricting USNA to no tourists, etc. That will happen when a terrorist decides it's an important enough target and when an incident occurs. The academies are good targets in what they represent to American values and patriotism, but are not the best targets in putting fear into the civilian population. The better targets are transportation centers, historic monuments(think DC) and athletics events where more harm can be done and where the lasting affect has a greater fear impact on the populace. Unfortunately the world has changed in the last few decades. There have always been terrorists, yet now we are all made aware of incidents almost instantaneously. </p>

<p>Personally I feel that we will live with Islamic terrorists for the remainder of our lives and whether we are in or out of Iraq will not change that fact. The Brits made an important observation in the 1950s in Malaysia. If you control the towns and villages at night and provide security to the populace, you can turn the tide against the insurgents. We have failed to accomplish this in Iraq. At home, we're secure. All we have to do is look at Britain now. If they can't control the Islamic militants in their enclaves, Britain could be in serious trouble in the next decade or two. Mao Tse-Tung stated that the guerrilla (read terrorist) is the fish and the people are the sea. If the sea provides a friendly environment the terrorist will survive, and if that enviornment is hostile, the terrorist will drown. Terrorist expert Richard Clutterback surmised that only 1% of people feel strongly enough to wish to risk their owns to support either the terrorist or govt, 10% may have sufficient preferenc eot follow the lead of activists on either side, and 80% just want to keep their families out of harms way. Terroristic action is far better suited for Iraq than the US and that's where they'll put their resources. Once the US pulls out its troops, then Britain and the US become the preferred target. The academies would be a great target but not the perfect target.</p>

<p>That's my two cents...I would encourage parents to just enjoy the aspect of having their sons and daughters at the academy and not worry about pictures being taken in the yard (it isn't a big deal in the long term aspect of Midshipmen training), or the security of the academy. If and when there is a specific threat, they do have levels of threat conditions that when implemented will lock the place down tighter than any other campus (same as with the other academies/military bases) in the country. </p>

<p>Have a great weekend, enjoy those first phone calls, be upbeat, and listen. It's tough but many, many others have gone before and have made it...your Mids can do it to. I thought about quitting and going to civilian Univ many times but the longer I stayed, the harder it became as I found that that my shipmates were my friends, the guys I wanted to hang out with, and that I indeed was getting a decent education, the price was right, and my indentured service would ultimately pass by quickly. I didn't leave because I didn't want to fail and it would be harder for me to face that personally then dealing with anything the academy could throw at me and believe me, I challenged the system but still loved the place. I didn't even buy a ring because of the threat of having to see the Commandant if I didn't purchase one. I wanted to see if the rumour was true. I did buy a ring many years later when I was a LT. Many who leave express regret that if they would have just stuck it out, one more week, one more month, one more year...the five years you owed the Navy go by fairly quickly and the experience lasts a lifetime. One of the sons of a big time Wall Street stock brokerage firm did his years in the Navy and it didn't affect his future earnings. When I knew him he was certainly enjoying his experience. Tell your Mid if they're down just to hang in till PPW and then talk about it. They'll be glad they did. From there at least they beat Plebe Summer. If they can do PS, they can do Academic year and so on. At the end of youngster year, it is then, they really do have to make their own decision. At least by that point, it is more informed decision and not an emotional one.</p>

<p>Just when you thought some combative posters drifted off into obscurity they start to making reconciling comebacks. Then “POW” were hugging Brahma Bulls at rodeos and beating on old ladies taking pictures. Prohibitive Camera regulations on installations are fairly clear "No photographic, video producing, or camera phones beyond this point" period. If you really have a problem with people taking pictures on base without the fore warning, then report it to security and don’t quit your day job. I thought the first question asked in this thread was very fairly cut and dry....asking about a legit photographing contractor. What’s so hard about that?</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Hey, don't go away. Your opinions are valued by most of us.</p>

<p>Jadler- thanks for the update.</p>

<p>As to the rest, I second Jadler that it's time to move on.</p>

<p>And a reminder that it's ok to agree to disagree....keeping it respectful in the process is the key, IMHO. Accomplish that, and there's room here for everyone!</p>

<p>
[quote]

[quote]
I think I'll just go back to where I came from.....

[/quote]

Hey, don't go away. Your opinions are valued by most of us.

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Let me add an "amen" to what my shipmate said here. Don't go anywhere, Shogun. You and I may not have always seen eye to eye, but I've always appreciated your posts. I hope you'll stick around. At the risk of sounding patronizing, I have much to learn from you.</p>

<p>
[quote]
Windows out side the mess hall are no longer see-through (a visual barrier has been put up).

[/quote]
</p>

<p>Jadler,</p>

<p>Last time I was in the Yard, I noticed that the roof had been installed on King Hall. I was wondering if any part of King Hall has been completed and is now being used, or if the Brigade is still using Dahlgren exclusively? I ask because I don't remember any windows in Dahlgren (other than those in the doors by the Lejeune Hall entrance) that could be peeked through.</p>

<p>Thanks. :)</p>

<p>Concerning security at USxA, I leave that to the professionals and those responsible for it, NONE of which are here to comment, nor would I expect them to do so if they WERE here.</p>

<p>Zaph, it is still split.
The windows = the doors by Lejune...the glass doors...what you mentioned above.</p>

<p>I have spoken with a few cadre who are actually glad that the doors are now covered...they said that too many people were looking in.</p>

<p>I just want to make it clear that the actions taken by the OIC/Chaplains are in no way related to any security issue...if there is any security issue at all, it is unauthorized access to off limits areas.</p>

<p>What mvl said about USNA security is right on target.</p>

<p>Might I add....the Marines were a great deterrence! Bring them back!!!!</p>

<p>Group hug- :D</p>

<p>I cannot wait until King Hall is open, again. It is going to be so nice, according to the preview drawings I have seen.</p>

<p>Time to move on in more ways than one...</p>

<p>It's been fun - well maybe :) - while it lasted. I will join my youngster on the sidelines. He seems to enjoy it there more.</p>

<p>Good luck to the class of 2011.</p>

<p>


</p>

<p>Originally Posted by itlstallion422
"Apparently during a speech in DC the (new) Supt said that he didn't know when the Academy became a "yacht club"</p>

<p>If that is not a bit of slam on Admiral Rempt! Wonder if the quote is really true or has been modified as it has traveled the rumor mill?</p>

<p>posted by usna09mom: "Who are you judge judy? You're not talking to your students. Do you know how to use spell check?"
Who is the Judge now? </p>

<p>PM2: I know how you feel. I for one also don't think we need to be criticized by a parent from the USMA. Observations maybe but leave the criticisms to those of us with direct involvement with USNA.
I for one think you have a lot of insight to offer. Come back when you feel the time is right!</p>

<p>Bottom line...</p>

<ol>
<li> Don't interfere. If you can view without interfering fine. If you can photograph without interfering, fine.</li>
<li> Parents LET GO. Your child is an adult. He/she has a life. Cut the apron strings. There will be times when he/she will be away from you and unable to communicate. ACCEPT THIS AS PART OF LIFE.<br></li>
<li> The SAs have become fish bowls. It is unfortunate. They are public places like any others in the country and that subjects them to the lookiloos of the world.</li>
</ol>

<p>


</p>

<p>Since Adm Rempt was not a favorite of many of the alumni, you might be correct. Perhaps he was mending fences.</p>

<p>I'm wondering if the "yacht club" comment had to do with the re-emphasis on sailing and sailing skills....</p>

<p>I think I had heard mention that the time on the water learning sailing had increased over the previous few years.... and perhaps more sailing rotations during plebe summer? (not sure- have nothing to compare it to....)</p>

<p>perhaps the firsties or recent alumni can comment further....????</p>