Pledge Of Allegiance: "One Nation, Under God"

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<p>Yes, but the classification of “suspect” isn’t really necessary for marriage rights. There are many cases in which the SCOTUS uses the standard of strict scrutiny for laws which target a group which may or may not be a suspect–see San Antonio v. Rodriguez–but this method isn’t always used. In those instances in which the group is not deemed suspect, the court applies a rational basis rationale, which states that “if a law neither burdens a fundamental right nor targets a suspect class, we will uphold the legislative classification so long as it bears a rational relation to some legitimate end.” Of course, if the reasoning behind a law fails to exhibit a rational relation to some legitimate end, it will not be upheld by the court, such as the Amendment 2 of Colorado Constitution in Romer v. Evans. I fail to see how a ban on gay marriage meets those qualifications either.</p>

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<p>The ban ended on the west and mid-west with Perez v. Sharp–though not immediately, to my knowledge–and the SCOTUS subsequently ended all anti-interracial marriage laws with Loving v. Virginia. </p>

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<p>To my understanding, civil rights involve areas surrounding “race”, sex, gender, etc. Brown v. BOE was decided prior to 1964 and wasn’t justified using the commerce clause. I believe you’re thinking of the congressional civil rights act of that year.</p>

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<p>I know sarcasm doesn’t travel well over the net, but really?</p>

<p>The state of marriage in our nation is so terrible that who are we to say gays shouldn’t have the right to marry? Who are we to claim that won’t work? What’s so scary about it?</p>

<p>^Because Brittney Spear’s 55 hour marriage is less of a slap in the face to God than a couple who has been together for 20 years but happen to be same sex. Duh.</p>

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Nope, and I’m not religious in the least. It’s almost funny how people become uptight about something so trivial - there are millions of issues more worthy of concern. British people are far less religious on average than we are, and they’re not upset about “God Save the Queen” (their national anthem) which is associated with both religion and monarchy.</p>

<p>@Romanigypsyeyes: I was raised by very religious parents who are homophobic, sexist, and borderline racist, and often turn to their religion (not Christianity) to explain their personal views. I’ve learned it’s not worth arguing with people who aren’t capable of looking at an issue objectively.</p>

<p>you know I could care less what people pass as laws in this country. If the majority of people want gay marriage, then go ahead. Do I tell people what I think about gay marriage? Sure, because it’s my belief. Do I think that gay marriage should be stopped at any cost from being legal in this country? No, because we’re not a Christian nation. It’s not like we send people to jail for using Jesus Christ as a swear.</p>

<p>I don’t think any Christian should be losing any sleep over this. It’s not our role as Christians to enforce/press our beliefs on others. It’s up to the individual to adopt their beliefs themselves.</p>

<p>I don’t think we’re a Christian nation at all.
I mean, we don’t have “In God We Trust” on our money nor do we have “Under God” in our Pledge of Allegiance. We don’t start each session of Congress with a prayer nor does our Declaration of Independence give us rights from God himself and nor does the Capitol which houses the Supreme Court have a Moses statue holding up the 10 commandments. </p>

<p>To deny that our nation isn’t Christian is myopic. Whether or not these things should be there is a whole different story.</p>

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<p>Marriage is a “right?” I don’t understand how this can be supported at all beyond a religious argument or the fact that it’s a law. Is marriage a natural right?</p>

<p>@Pierre You know I’m actually surprised, when I first saw some of your posts I didn’t think I’d agree with you very often, especially on this issue. But then I read a lot of what you said on that other slightly more infamous gay board from June and you’re quite able to reason logically about the issue.</p>

<p>…I realize that sounds like a bit of an insult but I promise I’m complimenting you ^^. You should see some of the… (let’s use a euphamism that <i>won’t</i> get me kicked off CC)… “colorful” language/profound ignorance I’ve read.</p>

<p>To sum them up… as I say to the friend-of-my-mom’s-friend who is currently borrowing my bedroom “Whenever I want to lose all faith in humanity’s basic goodness, decency and love… I read the comments on Yahoo! News”</p>

<p>^Itachirumon, thank YOU for helping me think this out. At the beginning of the summer, I wasn’t really sure what I thought about all this but seeing all these posts have helped me to really think about this issue on a level I’d never thought at before. It’s been tough but it’s been fun thinking about where I stand on the issues!</p>

<p>“Are you actually arguing that the privileges or immunities clause only applies to the states and not the federal government? You should do some more reading on constitutional law.”</p>

<p>Uhhhh…read the post I’m responding to. The person incorrectly asserts DOMA violates the 14th Amendment. The 14th involves states. the 5th involves the federal gov. Anyone that says the 14th applies to the fed gov needs to read con law, and if you want to sit there and say I don’t understand the constitution when you CLEARLY don’t understand what I’m saying, you need to do a little more reading yourself. When did I EVER say privelages and immunities doesn’t apply to the fed? Seriously, don’t make **** up. You are an idiot if you think the 14th applies to the fed. </p>

<p>“Tiff only 9 states currently allow common law marriages. Only 5 states “grandfathered” in correct common law marriages when they took this out of their laws/statues/books whatever.”</p>

<p>When did I say all states had common law marriage? Useless insertion of fact.</p>

<p>“Tiff, I suggest you educate yourself on gay rights and the struggles the LGBT community has had to face. I reccommend Good As You and reading over the Prop 8 Trial Tracker. Especially the liveblogging of the case back in January. It’s a tragedy that so few people have actually taken the time to read it and educate themselves.”</p>

<p>So because I don’t think a right to marriage exists in the constitution, I am intolerant of the gay community? Believe it or not, I have several gay and lesbian friends. When did I ever say I had a problem with gays? You think because I don’t think any right to marriage exists, I’m attacking the gay community? Please. Like I said, I don’t give a **** if gays marry. </p>

<p>“To my understanding, civil rights involve areas surrounding “race”, sex, gender, etc. Brown v. BOE was decided prior to 1964 and wasn’t justified using the commerce clause. I believe you’re thinking of the congressional civil rights act of that year.”</p>

<p>Gender wasn’t oringinally included in the Civ rights amendments. Brown didn’t grant equal rights at all. It stated that black schools were not EQUAL to white ones, therefore the school needed to desegregate. It hardly creates equal rights. Read the opinion. It UPHELD seperate but equal. The Civil rights cases upheld the civil rights act using the commerce clause- heart of ATL v US (the other case escapes me). Brown’s ruling was completely different than heart of ATL. </p>

<p>“Yes, but the classification of “suspect” isn’t really necessary for marriage rights. There are many cases in which the SCOTUS uses the standard of strict scrutiny for laws which target a group which may or may not be a suspect–see San Antonio v. Rodriguez–but this method isn’t always used. In those instances in which the group is not deemed suspect, the court applies a rational basis rationale, which states that “if a law neither burdens a fundamental right nor targets a suspect class, we will uphold the legislative classification so long as it bears a rational relation to some legitimate end.” Of course, if the reasoning behind a law fails to exhibit a rational relation to some legitimate end, it will not be upheld by the court, such as the Amendment 2 of Colorado Constitution in Romer v. Evans. I fail to see how a ban on gay marriage meets those qualifications either.”</p>

<p>I don’t need an explanation of how a court determines if a group is a suspect class. The court uses strict scrutiny for minorities and quasi suspect classes (minorities and women), and rational basis for all others. I never said it would pass rational basis, I am arguing that marriage isn’t a right. </p>

<p>“Again, you clearly don’t understand what you’re you’re trying to discuss. You’re talking about Section 2. Read Section 3 of DOMA - it specifically states that the federal government is to define marriage as between a man and a woman.
Granted this section was just struck down a few weeks ago, but there will almost certainly be appeals.”</p>

<p>Why would I discuss a section that was just challenged in federal court? It’s up in the air, it’s under review. The court’s will decide if it’s legitimate. Despite DOMA, states still have moved forward with legalizing gay marriage. Correct? So obviously it isn’t preventing all gays from getting married. Honestly, if the gov wants to grant additional benefits to married couples, they should be allowed to define what qualifications they should meet. I will say our society has come a long way- there was a time when homosexuality was illegal, and now the government has no laws banning homosexual relations, and is considered allowing them to get married. I see “progress”, not oppression. DOMA doesn’t ban gays from being together, living together and staying together. </p>

<p>Where would a right to marriage be found? I don’t think there is a right to legal recognization for any union. This all comes back to giving the gov too much power. Instead of lobbying for more state control over marriage, people should be challenging the states monopoly over marriage. The real tyranny here is that the government solely has the power to determine marriage. Then again, since they grant special benefits to married couples, they need some requirements. Overall, be angry at big government liberals for granting power to the states in the first place to be the sole determinates of what marriage is. Gay activists are fighting the wrong battle.</p>

<p>Also, I am not the only person on here that stated marriage isn’t a natural right (because by marriage you want legal recognition). Why don’t you ask them as well instead of all ganging up on me because I am not “progressive” or “liberal” enough. And I can see why the gay marriage thread ended up closed- because people are taking it way too personal.</p>

<p>FWIW, I’m 100% opposed to gay marriage, so agree with my comments at your peril.</p>

<p>On the other hand, marriage has either a religious connotation or a legal connotation, or both in some religions. To say that it’s a natural right is to say that a completely legal construct is somehow a natural right, given that we live in a society that would not be legally permitted to use a solely religious definition of marriage institutionally.</p>

<p>@ tiff. Well of course we take it personally. We are being denied the right/privilege/whatever you want to call it to do something based solely on a characteristic that we cannot control- our sexuality. Yeah, we’re going to take that PERSONALLY. How wold you like it if you weren’t allowed to get married based on yours or the other person’s race? I think you’d take it personally if the person you happened to love was a different race.</p>

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<p>This is gonna ruffle some feathers!</p>

<p>Marriage is like getting your drivers license. You can choose to drive or choose not to drive. But there is no right to drive. Driving is a privilege. Just like marriage. If you don’t pass the driving test you can’t legally drive. If you don’t meet the laws set for marriage, you can’t legally marry.</p>

<p>Here comes the ruffle!</p>

<p>There is no proof your sexuality is something you are born with. Yeah there have been studies that suggest that but there is no definitive proof. Forget all that stuff about animals that are born that way. We are humans, not those animals. Homosexuality is a choice.</p>

<p>Why would anyone choose to be gay in this world? Are they fond of being discriminated against or something?</p>

<p>Don’t liberals and progressives constantly agrue that character traits are developed by enviromnmental conditions? So I guess everything is determined by the environment, except sexuality. </p>

<p>I was denied the right to get a drivers license before 16, I couldn’t legally drink until 21, I couldn’t legally buy tobacco until 18. I was denied “rights” based solely on my age, which I can’t control. I couldn’t own a handgun until 21, and there is an individual right to own a handgun, but the gov is allowed to make restrictions. I don’t qualify for certain scholarships because I’m not black. I don’t take it personal. If you want to give the state the power to have a monopoly on marriage, you have no right to complain about restrictions it creates. Excessive gov power is the problem, so gay activists demand… More gov intervention.</p>

<p>Most people don’t support gay marriage. Get over it. They’re not saying you’re a bad person, but it’s against tradition. You’re not being segregated, you’re not being jailed for Sodomy, you’re not having your right to vote revoked, you’re not having your rights to protest revoked, you’re not having your right to contact your representatives restricted, you’re not having your right to litigation supressed. Be glad you live in a country like America that gives all people civil liberties and has a systemin place to ensure they are protected. Be happy that americans are so open to homosexuality now. You’re not some oppressed minority that the gov is trying to silence. They want to add gays as a protected class under the hate law crimes. They’re actually putting gay marriage on the ballot. Whine all you want but I see a system trying to work with a historically harassed class to give them more accesses to benefits. You should be happy that as a county were actually considering amending laws. If you were some forgotten about, oppressed minority group, we wouldn’t be having this discussion. You sit there and claim it’s ridiculous to think gays have equal rights, but you can’t even back that statement. They have every right that is considered a natrural right, and they have the right to challenge any policy that they think restricts a “right.” the only right you claim to be denied is marriage, and it has yet to be ruled a natural right. If I was with someone I loved I wouldn’t care if the gov recognized it or not. I wouldn’t care about the tax benefits or joint insurance. I would be happy that I an allowed to be with the person. I loved. But I don’t really look for the blessing of the gov in my life. I think if the gov wants to give special BENEFITS to married couples, than they can define marriage. Were not talking about “rights,” were talking about benefits and entitlements. Tax cuts aren’t rights. </p>

<p>I think relationships are a right, in that you have the freedom to enter and exit them as you please. But a license isn’t a right. Like I said, there is an established individual right to bear arms, yet the gov may place requirement on that right. Every right has been allowed to carry with it some restrictions at various points I. History, so even of you could make a case that marriage is a right, the gov can still place restrictions on it. I don’t care either way, but I think it comes down to benefits and tax cuts. I mean, do people really need a license to feel content with their relationship? Solving gov intervention with more intervention is plain stupid. Sorry, but I don’t feel bad about the prop 8 votes. Gay activists wanted it on the ballot because they were covinced that they would win. They lost because of minorities and religious people, and now they’re crying about it. If you truly think marriage is a right, why would you leave a right up to a vote by the masses? If you would leave a “right” upto a public vote, you obviously don’t really value it. And don’t get upset when most people vote against gay marriage. I would never put my first amendment rights up to a vote. Now that gays lost in ca, they play the whole people arso ignorant card. If they’re so ignorant, why would you put it up to a vote in the first place? People on here are saying I don’t “understand” gay rights. That’s fine. But would you want people like me voting on whether you should be allowed to get married? And since the vast majority of people are straight, most people, under your logic, don’t understNd the movement. Why put your rights in their hands?ever? </p>

<p>There are now privelages that people consider rights because we live in a benefits and enitlement state. Maybe one day marriage will be considered a right by a bunch of activists judges who rule based on their desire to make people feel good instead of the law and constitution. It all comes down to what Kennedy thinks.</p>

<p>We live in such a terrible country that allows people who think their rights are being violated to vote, write congressmen, hold protests, do whatver they want in the privacy of their home and challenege statues in the court system. How oppressive.</p>

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<p>You’re kidding, right? Why do people choose to get stuff pierced? Why do people choose anything?</p>

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<p>Makes no difference why. The key is it is a choice.</p>

<p>So tell me Balcony, what was the day that you remember waking up and going “Hmm… I think I’m going to be straight and like girls for the rest of my life.”? Because if we had to chose, then so did you.</p>

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<p>Heterosexuality is completely natural; if it wasn’t, human beings would have died out long ago. Same with animals, bugs, etc. Reproduction depends on heterosexuality; if too much of a population is homosexual then it won’t be able to sustain itself.</p>

<p>Just pure science here.</p>