<p>Thanks BigRed for answering my question about sororities! oh and sorry everyone for the AA comment, but someone singled me out specifically so I was responding to it. Anyway a sorority is definitely something I'd consider if I transferred to Cornell. There aren't really a lot of sororities in my current college (NYU) and yeah hazing was one of the things turning me off about the Greek system at first but if sororities don't do much of that I'm fine with it.</p>
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because no IVY LEAGUE schools would let jews in)
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<p>Uh... the Ivy League hadn't been formalized yet, and even so, Cornell was accepting plenty of Jewish students from its inception.</p>
<p>^ the "ivy league" became an official term from NCAA. what i should have said, and meant, was that no TOP schools were accepting jewish applicants.</p>
<p>sorry, my bad</p>
<p>and stargazerlilies, NO SORORITIES HERE HAZE. i wasnt hazed, none of my friends were hazed. so you dont have to worry about that. even though rush itself was exhausting (and cold!) i actually had a lot of fun meeting people who were also rushing as well as the older girls in the sororities. i am definitely an advocate of people rushing just to gain the experience even if they dont intend to join a house. my best friend did not want to rush, and i convinced her to jsut to try (and so she has no regrets later when she was the only one out of our group not to be in a house). now she is in a sorority and loves it</p>
<p>^Obviously what was meant was that the top schools, most of which would later become known as the Ivy League, did not accept Jewish students or were not welcome to them. Also, it is not the fact that the school would not accept them, but that the non-affiliated organization created within the schools would not accept these students.
And Cornell is not where most of these Jewish fraternities/sororities was created.</p>
<p>In my opinion, I find the Jewish houses very accepting. In fact a lot of the events put on by Jewish-affiliated orgs on campus are known for welcoming and promoting to the whole campus. So there is no reason why there should be a problem with their Greek life.</p>
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you have no idea about the logistics of what goes on other than what rumors you hear and the parties on the weekends.
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<p>Frankly, until the Greek system cleans up their act, and actually starts contributing to campus life in a meaningful way instead of just doing certain things because they have to, I think some criticism of the Greek system is appropriate. Particularly its exclusionary tendencies, its treatment of women, the lack of competent leadership, and the petty recruitment process for both sexes.</p>
<p>What's really amazing is how far the Greek system has fallen over the last thirty years. There used to be a time when the Greeks were the campus stalwarts -- the most studious, the most active, and the most important to continuing on traditions and social life. (And independents were the over-imbibing uncultured ones.) Today, I think so much of the heartbeat of campus is found away from the Greek system, mostly in the leaders of philanthropic and academic student activities, who not coincidentally, happen to be independents.</p>
<p>Note that I am not saying that there is anything wrong with most individuals in the Greek system. Rather, the system itself is what needs to be changed.</p>
<p>That said, dontno, I think you are being a bit naive to be complaining about tribalism on campus to the extent that you do. Humans are social animals, and we are herd creatures at that. In all areas of our life, we seek out others who will support our psyches and make us feel comfortable about ourselves. This is especially true during college, when most kids are a bit confused about who they are and who they want to be, and we can often see the breaks down by race, ethnicity, religion, or social class. In my own experience at Cornell, I don't think it was by coincidence that I ended up living with a great group of seven guys who just so happened to be of relatively modest family means and a fair amount of academic interests.</p>
<p>But I actually think that aside from some of the Asian interest groups, the most self-segregating institutions on campus are the white fraternities or sororities. Most of them are simply uninterested in getting out of their comfort zone of wealth and privilege in any way shape or form. And these happen everywhere in higher education -- mostly in fraternities, but also in the finals clubs at Harvard or the eating clubs of Princeton or even the co-ops at Berkeley.</p>
<p>So at the end of the day, I can't really blame the multi-cultural fraternities or even the multicultural living residence dorms for doing what they are doing. They were faced with a situation that led them to be a bit out of their comfort zone and pooled their resources together (or lobbied for University resources) to make things a little bit better for themselves. Absent any systemic change of the entire Cornell social system, this was the best option they had available to them. And, in many ways, it speaks to the opportunism of Cornell that the University founded the first African-American fraternity at a time when many other colleges weren't even educating blacks.</p>
<p>So yes, tribalism exists, and yes, it is a little bit funny to see kids suddenly cling to their religious, ethnic, or class backgrounds the minute they step on campus, but sadly, it's just human nature.</p>
<p>I do think some long-term things can be done about the issues you raise, though. I would turn the residential halls into two year residential colleges, and assign students randomly to a college their first year, and require them to live in college their second year as well. The Greek system wouldn't be able to recruit members until their second year. Unfortunately, however, there just isn't the money to do this, and it brings up issues as to what to do with transfer students, etc.</p>
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NO SORORITIES HERE HAZE.
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<p>Except for, you know, the ones that do.</p>
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Quote:
NO SORORITIES HERE HAZE.
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Except for, you know, the ones that do.
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<p>except, you know, those are rumors started to "bring down" houses. and if you really knew the details regarding the incidents that were reported in the past, you would see how ridiculous the accusations were</p>
<p>Well, the reason I asked about sororities hazing is because someone posted this comment earlier, and it made me curious:
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PanHel sororities generally stick to their no-hazing policy and pledging consists largely of partying and being showered in gifts. I see AEPhi was written up for a violation (see Hazing.Cornell.Edu), but other than that, there haven't been any recent substantiated reports.</p>
<p>I have it on good authority that aKDPhi, the larger of the two Asian sororities, has done some ridiculous things in the name of pledging -- not necessarily anything violent, but hierarchy-based impositions and degrading activities that non-Asians probably wouldn't put up with. Panhel and MGLC are different (with a lot of variation within each organization), whether for better or for worse.
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<p>I appreciate your opinions, CayugaRed. You put in very nice words(though I don't think dontno will understand since I dont think he is even in college...) the nature of human beings and why the Greek system even exists. Though I don't agree with your last opinion, but that is a discussion for another thread...</p>
<p>Let me be clear here: The type of hazing I am referring to is much more tacit and implicit than being forced to perform oral sex on a banana, having to share your sexual stories with everybody else in the house, or being forced to drink a keg as fast as you can.</p>
<p>The type of hazing I am referring to is often indirect, but comes as a direct result of the type of peer pressure and group think that go on within the Greek system. It's the type of peer pressure that will make a guy take advantage of a girl not because his morals are fundamentally flawed, but because he wants the other 'brothers' in his house to think that he is 'a man'. It's the type of peer pressure that will force a girl to spends hundreds of dollars that her family doesn't have to purchase a certain type of wardrobe so that she feels like she fits in with her 'sisters'. </p>
<p>The Greek system breeds on insecurity and takes advantage of way too many young kids. And so many of the kids drink themselves into a stupor on a weekly basis as a result. </p>
<p>This is not a problem that is limited to Cornell, or even to colleges with a Greek system, but it is a structural problem that needs to be addressed. There were similar peer pressures even for me, who was pretty removed from the Greek system at Cornell. Unfortunately the Greek system institutionalizes this problem and exacerbates it.</p>
<p>I definitely respect where you are coming from CayugaRed but I really have to disagree about the Greeks not being involved on campus. As far as I can see many of the leaders and people involved on campus are also in Greek Life. I think that the people who are Greek are often times outgoing and social people who take advantage of leadership positions as well as give back to the community. Of course there are people who don't, but a whole 1/3 of the campus is in the Greek system. Now these aren't the lazy or antisocial kids. I think that the people in this system are made up of a large proportion of the campus' outgoing students who enjoy getting involved in activities. I do think that this gigantic chunk of campus does give back to the school and the community. I would bet that the average Greek has done more community service, has more leadership positions, and does more activities than the average nonGreek. The average Greek also has a higher gpa (which is something consistent across the nation). I really do think the Greek system is a very positive part of Cornell. If it was like the stereotype I had seen on TV I never would have joined. </p>
<p>I do agree with there being a bit of peer pressure involved, especially what you mentioned with girls. But unfortunately that's called being a teenager. Fortunately, the ugliest form of peer pressure (the taking advantage of girls part) doesn't seem to happen that much on campus from what I've seen and heard.</p>
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I definitely respect where you are coming from CayugaRed but I really have to disagree about the Greeks not being involved on campus. As far as I can see many of the leaders and people involved on campus are also in Greek Life. I think that the people who are Greek are often times outgoing and social people who take advantage of leadership positions as well as give back to the community.
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<p>Fair enough. The argument goes both ways. </p>
<p>Perhaps in my own experience I just saw more destructive behavior than constructive behavior within many in the Greek system, and it also didn't help that I had to TA students who were going through rush and had absolutely no interest in learning the material. There are definitely a couple of stand-up houses that I respect. Of course, one of the houses that I respected and almost joined was kicked off campus for the last year for destructive behavior...</p>
<p>Maybe another problem is that the most visible aspect of the Greek system to non Greeks are the parties. </p>
<p>It would be interesting to look at membership in the senior honoraries to see how well Greeks are represented.</p>
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I do agree with there being a bit of peer pressure involved, especially with the girls. But unfortunately that's called being a teenager.
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<p>I don't know. It just seems that so many girls already have self-esteem or insecurity issues that can pose all sorts of serious health problems, and being in a sorority can sometimes exacerbate them.</p>
<p>on a side note:</p>
<p>to be honest, all of the negative talk about greek life on CC is probably the reason why this year the LOWEST number of girls have signed up to rush.</p>
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Don't let these stupid comments deter anyone from rushing "jewish" frats. SAE and Lambda Chi are ABSOLUTELY not Jewish, and the ones that are Jewish often let nonJews in. That comment was idiotic and he obviously isn't in the Greek system.
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<p>I think you're confusing me with someone else.</p>
<p>And on SAE and Lambda Chi, agree to disagree.</p>
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to be honest, all of the negative talk about greek life on CC is probably the reason why this year the LOWEST number of girls have signed up to rush.
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If it weren't for greek life I would be filling out transfer applications right now. It's unfortunate that the system is viewed by many so negatively.</p>
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why this year the LOWEST number of girls have signed up to rush.
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<p>Or it could be PanHel's inability to reform their ways.</p>
<p>@ TrackBabi, BigRed and other multiculturalists:</p>
<p>Your snide, vapid remarks are completely useless. If you'd like to engage in a rational arguement concerning the ethnocentricity of ethnic themed frats, then please take a gander at CayugaRed's reasoned response to me. Stop telling me about the history of exclusion! I've now stated 3 separate times i understand the initial intention of ethnic themed frats. I just no longer think those exclusiuve groups should continue to exist. I feel the same way about HBCU's. I respect Cayuga's opinon that our innate human nature encourages us to gravitate towards those who look like we do. I'm not denying that. But when peopple allow this sociobiological urge to manifest in their lives (by joining Sammy or living in Ujumma or joining the Italian Cultural society, tho this last one isn't as all consuming as the others), they do themselves a disservice. They bound themselves to similair looking individuals and create a social network largely absent of possibly like-minded but different looking individuals. And further, why is still acceptable for only minority groups to form their own clubs? WASP clubs exist but they're not official. I think both a "white" club and "black" clubs are both utterly wrong and divisive. But since it's equality for all, I'm starting the "Office of White People Affairs" and "Alpha Beta Gamma", a frat for fat, British-American, green eyed, straight haired, men!</p>
<p>If you'd like to discuss, then please remark on specific things that I say instead of making asinine comments. But for BigRed and TrackBabi, that might be asking too much. I can abrely get through your prodigious use of internet slang and deluge of liberal rhetoric.</p>
<p>Here's some people that agree with me: <a href="http://www.aynrand.org/site/DocServer/newsletter_multiculturalism.pdf?docID=162%5B/url%5D">http://www.aynrand.org/site/DocServer/newsletter_multiculturalism.pdf?docID=162</a></p>
<p>It's from the Ayn Rand society. I doubt you'll actually read it though, but it's enlightening.</p>
<p>you just dont seem to get it, dontno. its the fact that you STILL havent addressed the fact that you called these groups TRIBAL...somewhat claiming that those individuals are "inferior" for joining that kind of organization (hmmm these same kind of thoughts sparked something called the Holocaust...read up on it) and i still find that very VERY offensive. and how many times do we have to drill it in your head? YOU DONT HAVE TO BE JEWISH TO JOIN A "JEWISH" FRAT OR SORORITY!!! they are considered "NATIONALLY JEWISH" due to the founding members. i would advise just quitting while youre ahead before you dig yourself into a deeper hole than you are already in</p>
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its the fact that you STILL havent addressed the fact that you called these groups TRIBAL...somewhat claiming that those individuals are "inferior" for joining that kind of organization
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<p>Whoa someone's got their politically correct radar on! You've got to be kidding me! First off, tribalism has no connotation. Second off, I never under any circumstance insinuated that a member of a black frat (what you're only defending Jewish ones) was inferior!!!! Third, Jews continually refer to themselves as a "tribe". Fourth, I apologize for possibly offending you with the use of that word. Maybe a more appropriate word would have be "collectivist".</p>
<p>And I know you keep telling me that you can be white and join a black frat and so on. I really don't care. So if Sammy is only a "Jewish" frat b/c of its history maybe 50 years ago and it no longer has anything to do with being a Jewish frat, then why are 95% of the members Jews? Umm. I never stated that they're officially excluding non-Jewish members, but there shouldn't be unofficial ethnic groupings either. And I know it's no longer in the frat rulebook, but when someone says Sammy or asks about Sammy, eveyrone's answer is "Oh that's the Jewish frat." Stop being so coy with your answers. We both know it's a Jewish club that only really welcomes Jews. Same with ASA as well. They may have token non-whatever members, but their outreach, their charity work, their cultural traditions, their membership, their national alumni, their religious views, their history, and so forth and so forth are all almsot entirely Jewish or black.</p>
<p>Again I understand why people are attracted to this, but I think it's wrong. Here's a quote from the AYn Rand Center:</p>
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The spread of collectivism requires the destruction of an individual's confidence in his own mind. Such an individual then anxiously seeks a sense of identity by clinging to some group, abandoning his autonomy and his rights, allowing his ethnic group to tell him what to believe. Because he thinks of himself as a racial entity, he feels "himself" only among others of the same race. He becomes a separatist, choosing his friendsand enemiesbased on ethnicity. This separatism has resulted in the spectacle of student-segregated dormitories and segregated graduations.
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<p>Oh asnd why I've been getting such flak for gosh advocating people being viewed as individuals!, no one even mentioned this comment earlier (don't remmeber who said it)</p>
<p>"And do we really want a frat full of guidos? I wouldn't" or something like that</p>
<p>And AEPI is OFFICIALLY a Jewish frat. They accept all people but the charter is specific in seeing their mission as educating and encouraging the Jewish male college student.</p>
<p>Oh hi, seasoned Cornellian here, sorry to drop by. I'd like to use this thread to talk about giving some sage advice to our friend, Youngman, and helping him get into DU or any other of the 39 illustrious fraternities here at CU. Bullcrap aside, let's go.</p>
<p>First of all, I'm glad you've settled on a few fraternities and picked alternates should DU not work out. That's great. You shouldn't, however, go into rush with a closed mind. Remember, there is a fraternity for everyone. Yes, the brothers have wined you and dined you in the fall and during Rush Week, you will be wined, dined, and brown-nosed so much you'd think you were Skorton by the end of the week. But no, the minute you sign that bid, you will pretty much be owned until April. Enjoy the royal treatment while it lasts, because four glorious months of being someone's ***** lies straight ahead.</p>
<p>Its true though that at the end of the tunnel is three years of being a bro and being privy to a fantastic world of crazy parties, sorority girls, mixers, formals, and fun. And secret rituals (oh wait, you want to join DU, right? scratch that). Pledging sucks, but it's also awesome. Many consider it as "the most fun you will ever have and never want to do again".</p>
<p>By the way, if the worst thing the brothers make you do is eat at their house and wash dishes after dinner, you are lucky. The horror stories I have heard range from running around naked to excessive drinking to physical torture to exhaustive calisthenics, so a little cleaning sounds like a breeze. If they do dehumanize you, however, and make you do a bunch of crazy *<strong><em>, just think: why am I paying these people to do this *</em></strong> to me (that's where your dues are going, of course, to buy the supplies to haze you). Then again, you will have probably signed up for this knowing that you will have wanted them to haze you if you are that adamant about joining DU or whatever frat you choose. All aside, all fraternities have some sort of hazing: some more severe than others, but you suck it up, do it, and then reap the rewards of brotherhood after.</p>
<p>I will not, however, attempt to rank fraternities by popularity, as it is completely subjective and a totally worthless measure, nor by amount they haze (again, subjective), but during rush, you will get a feel for what houses work for you.</p>
<p>I know this was a mixed message, but you get the gist hopefully. Be yourself, be cool, and don't be an utter **<strong><em>bag. You'll get your bid and your four fabulous months of being brother *</em></strong>. Enjoy.</p>