<p>internal surveys show that Harvard seniors in 2002 had some of the lowest ratings for their school of any comparable university. Harvard officials say they will do something about that. </p>
<p>What do you think? </p>
<p>P.S. It's a change of role for me to be on this side of the Harvard debate, even implicitly, by posting this story on this forum. I'm still gathering information, so don't attribute any opinions in the article about Harvard to me.</p>
<p>this is a very trite topic. i think most people know that harvard is not the best place for a great undergraduate experience or education. most ppl go there for the name.</p>
<p>Interesting that this survey parallels the general reputation of Harvard, and the unscientific Studentsreview.com findings.</p>
<p>How much of this is self fulfilling? Harvard students surely are aware of the negative reputation, so perhaps their comments reflect the assumption that things are better elsewhere.</p>
<p>Who says you need to be happy...since when is life about happiness? Maybe happiness is over-rated--7000 harvard students couldn't be wrong--I think?</p>
<p>I think that an inferior undergraduate education and student unhappiness are leading indicators that show that Harvard will no longer be the #1 prestigious school in the near future. It's kind of like Oxford and Cambridge.</p>
<p>Oxbridge are still considered the top schools in the UK - the best students go there, and a degree from there still holds the prestige. They practically define higher education in the UK.</p>
<p>Wow. The numbers cited are very insignificant. Depending on how the survey was structured, the differences may not be very significant at all. The only reason crap like this makes the news is because it's HARVARD. This it not a BIG deal at all, especially considering that there are four schools that have done worse and that the differences are not that staggering.</p>
<p>It could simply be that students just expect too much from Harvard, as opposed to from other schools.</p>
<p>TokenAdult-Thanks for posting this. I think the article's headline is a little misleading though, Harvard students' happiness was nearly a "four" on a five point scale. They weren't necessarily unhappy, just comparatively less happy than the other schools surveyed.</p>
<p>Could unhappiness be a self-selecting thing? Kids who tend to overwork themselves are the ones who enroll at Harvard. They continue to overwork themselves there, leading to stress and unhappiness.</p>
<p>I don't want to downplay the survey, but Harvard was only .21 "happiness points" less than the average.</p>
<p>It seems like a telling article. Something that would aggravate me immeasurably is that "students can go through four years with limited contact with professors", "Small classes are frequently taught by temporary instructors", and "large lecture hall classes are headed by graduate students". Seems like a no-win situation.</p>
<p>"Could unhappiness be a self-selecting thing? Kids who tend to overwork themselves are the ones who enroll at Harvard"</p>
<p>Seeing as how Harvard has massive grade inflation, I think that argument goes out the window. There are more hard workers at MIT and Caltech than there are at Harvard anyways, so it's not like Harvard has a monopoly on the hardest working students. The schools with the highest SAT average and arguably the most cerebral student body is Caltech.</p>
<p>To be fair to Harvard students, they may not have quite the SAT of Caltech, or have the uniform massive course workloads, but this does not mean they are not hardworking. Remember that Harvard students also compete in Division 1 sports, a huge time commitment, and run enormous extracurricular programs. Tell an editor of the Crimson that, because she is not at Caltech she is not working hard, and she will think you are crazy. </p>
<p>Harvard is a broader experience than just taking tests and getting grades. That is part of the reason its graduates go into a wide variety of fields, not just on to graduate school and academic careers. </p>
<p>Yes, someone who wanted to do as little work as possible would be better off going to Harvard than Caltech, and doing nothing else but taking classes. But the admissions process weeds out these people in favor of dedicated scholars and those who want a good education while developing their professional career as a soloist, lobbying Congress, writing their second novel, etc.</p>
<p>There are more harder workers on their coursework at MIT and Caltech, but that is not all that goes on at Harvard.</p>
<p>"I think that an inferior undergraduate education and student unhappiness are leading indicators that show that Harvard will no longer be the #1 prestigious school in the near future."</p>
<p>I don't think any of the complaints voiced in the article would be news to someone who graduated 30 years ago. I don't see this as implying any impeding change in Harvard's standing at the top of higher education. If anything, it seems to be increasing its lead on the competition in prestige of its faculty, students enrolled, yield, sucess of its graduates, preeiminence of its graduate and professional schools, notariety of its president, and, of course the massive, unbelievable endowment.</p>
<p>I gather the "survey" we are talking about here is the Pew Trust thing, which has been around for a few years and which USNews has toyed with the idea of using in some way.</p>
<p>The reason they haven't - and the reason the survey is of limited value in comparing one school with another - is something other posters have put their finger on: namely, it is not normalized for differing expectations from campus to campus.</p>
<p>Its like the silly and non-scientific PR rankings of "happiest students", "most beer on campus", "best library" etc.</p>
<p>The limited PR survey shows X percent of BYU students are happy with the library, whereas more Harvard or Yale students have gripes about the library. (For example, Harvard or Yale students may be unhappy that the library isn't open all night - not seen as a crying need at BYU.)</p>
<p>The result: the PR "ranking" of "best college libraries" has BYU at the top. with the huge, world-class Harvard and Yale libraries well down the list.</p>
<p>This syndrome can skew results of the Pew Trust survey as well.</p>
<p>Agreed, Byerly. Harvard students are bitter because we constantly think, "we have a ten billion dollar endowment, so why can't the university have a better shuttle service/have an Eli Express equivalent/build a real student center/exterminate the cockroaches in Dunster House/fix the storm drainage in the yard/create a giant dome over Cambridge to control the weather so it will always be 75 degrees and sunny."</p>
<p>I think Byerly's point about expectations is well taken. Harvard has a larger than life reputation that leads some to expect nirvana (which it is not). The higher the expectations, the easier it is to be disappointed.</p>
<p>Another factor may be that, with an 80% yield, there are probably a number of students who enroll because they are admitted and feel they can't say no (and/or are pressured by parents, teachers or peers), and who don't really assess carefully whether it's the best fit. This was discussed in another thread. Harvard is a great place, but it is not the right place for everyone. Those who go there without a careful evaluation of whether it's right for them are probably more likely to be disappointed.</p>
<p>I also agree with afan that none of the complaints in the article would be news to someone who graduated 30 years ago (well, I graduated almost 30 years ago), and that this is not the "beginning of the end" of Harvard's reputation. And I note that, while it was (and still is) certainly possible for one's Harvard experience to consist mostly of large classes and little faculty contact, it was also possible to take mostly small classes and have a lot of faculty contact (the latter was my experience because I made it a priority).</p>
<p>All that said, I know that the current administration is acutely aware of the room for improvement, and has been very focused on increasing student-faculty contact and the commitment of faculty to undergraduate education and advising. Indeed, it is precisely this effort (rather than any comments about women and science) that is at the heart of the discontent with Summers currently being expressed by a segment of the faculty who were happier with the status quo. Despite the controversy, I believe Summers and his administration will ultimately be successful in implementing a good portion of the pending proposals to address these issues.</p>
<p>It's hard to know which aspect of this you would want to advertise: </p>
<p>1) a Harvard students inherent tendency to complain, or
2) an educational experience worth complaining about. </p>
<p>If you are trying to decide amongst a number of very good colleges, you may see this as a lose/lose situation if the "college-experience" is something high on your list of wants and don't wants. Otherwise, Harvard is obviously a great school.</p>