<p>Okay, so a student from my school has recently been admitted through the Posse program into Vanderbilt. While he is certainly a nice guy, his stats are far below Vanderbilt average (or even 25 percentile) He scored in the 1300s CR + M + W, and has about a 3.5 weighted GPA (under 50 percentile in my school). He is also not a URM, but of Iranian descent. </p>
<p>My question is: for a school such as Vanderbilt, which has very competitive application pools, are programs such as Posse a way to get in without having the necessary stats? I myself did not apply to Posse due to my state not providing the schools that I was interested in, but I kind of regret it now considering the stress of normal application process.</p>
<p>Any Vanderbilt students who know of Posse students similar to the student from my school? Anyone who knows students who actually have the stats recommended by Vandy?</p>
<p>Btw, in case this turns into a URM hate fest (I know it'll somehow turn into that), I myself am a URM, so please don't get the wrong idea.</p>
<p>Sometimes, schools will look at more than just stats - and they will provide whatever assistance is necessary to make sure the students they choose will be able to succeed.</p>
<p>I’m familiar with the Posse program (I was invited to join). From what I’m reading though, it seems as though grades aren’t taken into account at all.</p>
<p>Why the sudden disregarding of grades? Like it or not, they’re a valid representation of work ethic and innate intellect, traits that I thought were essential for leadership in post-college endeavors</p>
<p>I can’t imagine they would admit students and set them up to fail in an academic university where they are in over their head. From what I hear valedictorians and NMS struggle with the Vandy work load. It’s probably not in your best interest to attend a university where your academic profile is not similar to your peers.</p>
<p>First, grades do matter. The students they take have to show academic potential. And trust me, if they did not have academic potential, they would fail out of Vanderbilt. Kids who were valedictorians of their highschools come here and occasionally fail classes.</p>
<p>Second, you can’t apply for this. It’s not some sort of easy way in. You have to be nominated, and a very small number of students get in through the program.</p>
<p>Anyways, they do overlook stats. The students nominated have other things that make them worthy of a Vanderbilt education. Shows that the admissions process can be well rounded. The students they choose almost always succeed, which proves that the Posse program knows what it’s doing with the students they select.</p>
<p>Amen, Pancaked. The high retention rates at Vanderbilt speak for themselves re admissions making intentional decisions. Students from affluent/or just plain sophisticated homes with college educated parents who know how to direct their kids in the application process dominate the admission pool. The fact that Vanderbilt believes it has an obligation to seek raw talent and to help a few students find entry who are less likely to navigate admissions on their own makes me happy. I do not believe they admit students who can’t do the work. Also even at Vanderbilt there are paths to getting support, and the best prepared students stumble. You will see students from all sorts of backgrounds getting summer school credits and retaking courses like Organic for the second time. (Vandy --with your advisor’s input/approval…allows your second grade to go into your GPA but the transcript shows withdrawals or grades you might want to forget). In general, no one can pass classes at Vanderbilt without study habits and discipline no matter who you are.</p>
<p>Most of the URM at elite universities are “advantaged” students. The Posse Foundation helps disadvantaged URM and helps create more true diversity on campus and provide these students opportunity they may not of had due to social economic issues.</p>
<p>The idea that candidates are scoring standard deviations below the average can be successful is ludicrous. SATs and ACTs are strongly correlated with academic success, as are grades. Im sure that the majority of Posse students are admirable individuals and most will be successful. But thats true of lots of people who dont have the academic ability to justify admission to Vandy.</p>
<p>Back in 1980, Vanderbilt decided that it would address the lack of minorities in the engineering program by allowing Fisk students take cross register in Vandys engineering school. It was a dismal failure and I can remember being angry. Not with the students who were in our classes, but with Vandy for heartless putting these young people into an embarrassing situation. After a couple of semesters, none of the students remained.</p>
<p>Posses intentions are great. And the students who are being put into Vanderbilt, Cornell, or Hamilton would probably do fine at the next level or two down. Still fine universities or colleges, but at an appropriate level. I really dont understand the insistence of moving URMs into levels beyond their academic ability. Its really the universities putting their own interest ahead of the student. Each of these universities wants to show high minority percentages the students best interest be damned.</p>
<p>Admissions should be race, economics, and social status blind. Theres nothing wrong with taking into account special abilities (for example, musical and athletic) or diversity of backgrounds; but ignoring the intellectual ability of the applicants isnt fair to the Posse student nor the students who arent admitted to make way of URM.</p>
<p>The premise that a URM adds to the college experience is just as repugnant as the past idea that having people of color detracts from the university.</p>
<p>Second, I disagree entirely with the whole premise of Posse. To claim that a student who has grades far below the average of an institution (or even far below their 25%) is disadvantaged by outside factors other than work ethic is an insult to those who come from low socioeconomic backgrounds and still manage to meet the median. Leadership, extracurricular activities, and ‘hooks’ (I say this as an URM) should never overcome an academic profile. </p>
<p>I don’t see why there is an incessant need to get under qualified applicants into colleges these days. I was recently rejected from EOP from several SUNY schools due to being academically over qualified, despite the fact that my family’s income level was far below the baseline listed. Why am I being punished for keeping a strong academic record despite my disadvantages?</p>
<p>I also disagree that those chosen by Posse “always succeed.” Succeed in what? Graduating?</p>
<p>I don’t understand what you are even saying. The VAST majority of candidates are accepted on the basis of their academic profile. The Posse program a tiny number of students a change to get a great education that they otherwise would not have had zero access to. They may not have the academic stats but they have proven strength of character and tend to come from disadvantaged backgrounds. </p>
<p>What upsets you about giving them a shot at an elite school? No where is it written that elite schools must admit based on academic statistics. They can do whatever they want. They’re trying to gather a group of students who will lead the world intellectually. That’s it. The Posse program contributes to that goal. </p>
<p>You call them “underqualified.” They are not underqualified. You believe they are underqualified because you are making up a concrete set of admission standards focused on GPA and SAT scores. Some schools tend to follow these standards but do not believe they are the bottom line. You appear to be upset that schools like Vanderbilt are challenging this notion and saying that there is more to applicants than these numbers.</p>
<p>These students succeed at a rate that is absolutely astronomical compared to their peers coming from the same background, which is made even more incredible considering the caliber of school they are attending. Something like 90% graduate, higher than the national average for graduating HIGHSCHOOL. 45% who have 2years of work experience are pursuing grad school.</p>
<p>What about this bothers you? That a couple students get in without having a high SAT/GPA but bring other things to the table, and get a chance at an incredible education when they otherwise would have been completely overlooked by the applicant system and probably not even gone to college? Why is that so bad?</p>
<p>Right there, this is what perturbs me. A school as selective as Vanderbilt should be earned, not given to students in the hopes that they may succeed. It undermines the entire point of being dedicated in high school with the idea that “Hey, you have untapped potential. We’ll give you a shot at a school with a sub-20% acceptance rate.” Even if a student does succeed, which is certainly a wonderful thing, who’s to say that a student with an academically (and in many cases, extracurricular-based) superior profile would not have? If a student is not academically qualified, why not start them off in a school that has standards more similar to what they have achieved?</p>
<p>It’s similar to the notion of “Freshman Forgiveness” or “upward GPA trend.” While it’s certainly nice to see that schools are willing to overlook pure numbers, it’s a bit insulting to those who’ve worked hard all four years of high school and did not need to have a ‘wake up call’ their junior year. </p>
<p>It doesn’t bother me that they’re getting a great education. I wish that college was free to all who wished to pursue it (wishful thinking I know) At the same time, they would be “overlooked” in the first place during regular the admissions process for the sole reason that they did not meet the standards set forth by an institution. I understand that schools can take whoever they want, but as listed in my opening post, a 3.0 GPA + 1300 SAT are NOT a profile that would be taken seriously during a regular process. </p>
<p>The entire “diversity” promoting that schools are pushing is also overrated in my opinion. I say this as a URM: a school does not need diversity to succeed (at least not ethnically; socioeconomically I agree with however). It’s been pushed far too much in recent years, in my opinion. From interacting with others in different enrichment endeavors, I’ve never considered the diversity of the student body that I was a part of to be essential to my learning process. It’s definitely nice, however, students of underrepresented regions or ethnicity should work their way into top schools through merit. Who knows, maybe I just don’t see race as being all that big of a deal.</p>
<p>To state that the SAT and GPA are set-in-stone indicators of one’s potential is obviously not completely true, but to disregard them in the off chance that one might have “potential” is also a misguided path.</p>
<p>I had not previously heard of the Posse Foundation but upon scanning their website, it appears that the program partners with many fine institutions varying in size and geographic location throughout the US. Vanderbilt is not even the most highly ranked (by USNWR) university on the list; Penn, Cornell and Northwestern all participate in the program. There are also several very good LACs such as Pomona College. The program has been in operation for over 20 years.
All of this is to make the point that bigger minds than ours here on CC think this is worthwhile; it would have ended years ago and they would not be adding new partner schools if it wasn’t working.<br>
P.S. SineCosine^^ to your original question “are programs such as Posse a way to get in without having the necessary stats?” The simple answer would appear to be “yes”</p>
<p>Let’s clear something: SATs do not correlate with academic success. They correlate with college gpa (I think it’s at the end of soph year.) Big difference.</p>
<p>These institutions are saying “Sadly, the consequence of being an elite school is admissions tend to boil down to things like SAT scores, unfortunately eliminating a number of students who have earned a Vanderbilt education in other ways. This program is a way of recognizing a few select students and offering them the education they have earned.”</p>
<p>I have no issue with this. It may knock acceptances out of the hands of a few students who believed they deserved it more. That’s their own opinion. Vanderbilt and these other institutions do not think they deserved it more. Not to mention, these few students will certainly have great offers elsewhere.</p>
<p>We are talking about a few students per class who did not come from a background that offered them an elite private high school (or magnet school) education, no years of SAT prep, no private SAT instructors, no hired counselors to guide them through the application process and edit their essays, no summers at Harvard for enrichment classes, etc… If it were 15% of the class I would have a problem with it but we are talking about a few students a class. It seems like a good program.</p>
<p>So as a parent of a student who was nominated and received a Posse Foundation scholarship, let me set the record straight. My child’s “stats” would have allowed her to be accepted into most universities. She is well rounded in academics, leadership, extracurricular activities, and community service. Once she was nominated, we talked about the options of applying to colleges on her own outside of Posse. We opted for Posse because of obvious reasons – it’s full tuition scholarship plus it gives students an opportunity to connect with other students and be guided so that they can succeed in a college that may be far away from home. It’s the idea that she will know students already when she gets there and have a base of support in case she needs it. She was chosen because of her academics and her leadership and the intention is that she and the other Posse scholars will lead their college to new and better practices. These are not “unqualified” students at all. She did attend a very highly rated high school but we did not pay for tutors or ACT/SAT coaches nor did we have someone “help” write her essays. Her accomplishments are hers and she deserves all the credit for her success. Many applying to these higher ranked colleges could not say the same. Having more money to pay for all the extras does not make a student deserving of acceptance into any university or college. Hard work and motivation says a lot more about a student.</p>
<p>bud123 and parentofposse, you’re perpetuating the myth that the majority of the students at elite universities are there because they attended private schools and had lots of paid tutors for the ACT and SAT. The reality is that they are simply smart kids who come from both private and public high schools. No amount of tutoring alone will result in high grades and standardized test scores. If ACT and SAT tutoring is all that’s keeping the Posse students from scoring within the norm of a targetted university, then Posse should simply furnish tutors.</p>
<p>My point was many on this thread are stating that the Posse students are not qualified or certainly not up to par for the “norm” at these colleges. I am saying that simply is not true. No one is saying either that it’s simply tutors that get some kids in certain universities (although you have to admit that there is a huge tutoring business anymore and a certain “entitlement” from some families that their kid should get into such and such university). Posse is there to help students navigate the system, not “beat” the system or not because they aren’t qualified. And bottom line, it’s a worthwhile academic/leadership scholarship that requires many levels of interviews, transcripts, and recommendations. It’s done through nominations but it is open to any students who meets the guidelines of leadership abilities, community service, academics, and extracurricular activities. It’s really no different than a lot of scholarships, except it’s full tuition and again, there’s a lengthy process of interviews and meetings. Coca Cola, Gates, many other scholarships work the same way. But it’s insulting and offensive to these students who work so incredibly hard throughout high school to be told that they are “unqualified.” And to set the record straight before this gets mentioned, it is not only for minority students either.</p>