premed at 3rd tier?...

Pre-Med & Medical School Pre-Med Topics
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<p>hello.</p>

<p>im a junior in HS right now and college apps are gonna roll around soon enough. i wanna do premed and i think that my grades/SATs (top4%/1450) and other stuff are good enough that i could probably get into almost any of the top cc colleges. </p>

<p>BUT, i also have the option of going to the 3rd (yes, third) tier college near my home, university of texas in dallas (UTD), on a full scholarship (full tution paid, books, etc) AND they'll pay me $1500 (yes, cash) per semester. they have a premed program, and most of their premed students feed directly to UT's southwestern medical center. they have a 70% rate of preprofessional health students continuing their education, but i dont know what percentage of premed students go onto med school. assuming i finally decide to go there, how will going to a 3rd tier and a mostly unknown college ruin my chances of getting into med school? or should it help, assuming that i would be one of the "brighter" students and therefore get better recs and that getting a high gpa there might be easier, since it is a 3rd tier college?</p>

<p>the other factor is that i know the chances of getting into med school is basically 50-50, so doing a second major in college as a back up would be a good idea in case premed doesnt pull through. however, knowing that utd is a 3rd tier college, realistically speaking, the rest of their undergrad programs are crap compared to if i went to a better college. i'm worried that if i screw up premed at utd or if i dont get into med school after graduating, i'll be stuck as a utd graduate with a utd bachelors degree with almost no hope of a getting a decent job/pay. so thats why im also pondering whether if i should go to a CC Top college, where if i screw up premed, at least i'll still have a safe "backup" major to revert to.</p>

<p>so, utd, or a top cc? o_O</p>

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<p>No offense but if I'm University of Texas I wouldn't want you based on the tone of your post nor does it seem like you want to go there outside of getting the free $$$ and easy grades.</p>

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<p>err...what? im completing my choices, i never said i didnt want to go there. i want to do premed where i know i will be successful towards getting into med school. </p>

<p>based on previous posts, many have said that it doenst matter too much where one does premed but more based on high this and high that (gpa, mcat, etc), which of course, requires an easier courseload. so, no, i dont want to go to utd just because of the full ride, although, easy grades yes...as long as it will get me into med school, which is the whole point, and which is why im still thinking about going there verses going to a cc college.</p>

<p>so, please read my post carefully norcal. i think u just skimmed it or something...</p>

<p>so, again....where should i go for premed?</p>

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<p>"3rd tier college" </p>

<p>"the rest of their undergrad programs are crap compared to if i went to a better college."</p>

<p>"i'll be stuck as a utd graduate with a utd bachelors degree with almost no hope of a getting a decent job/pay."</p>

<p>I'm a couple of years removed from when I scored 790 on SAT verbal but I don't think my reading comprehension skills have eroded that much. The tone of your post is condenscending. Even if what you are saying about the college is true, I don't think that if you liked the school, you would be calling it "crap" and talking about being "stuck" as one of its graduates.</p>

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<p>well, these are the facts of the college, they aren't my opinions. it IS a third tier college, and therefore they WILL have not-so-good undergrad programs. these are the facts, not my opinions. and this is why im contemplating whether if i should go there or not for my "plan b" in case i screw up premed.</p>

<p>and the whole point of my post wasnt to analyze whether if im a prospective student to utd. again, i just want some advice on premed as im indecisive right now as to where i should go. i didnt post to get yelled at or to get analyzed for my loyalty towards a certain college but for some constructive opinions on premed education, so i'm sorry if i've "offended" you, norcal. just drop it.</p>

<p>so, again, any ideas?</p>

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<p>fight haaha</p>

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<p>lol...i dont want this to be a fight. i want some constructive opinions!! ahhhh</p>

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<p>I had hoped that you would've been able to glean the answer to your question from my replies but apparently I gave you too much credit. So I'll lay it out explicitly:</p>

<p>Me and Sakky can argue all day long about the importance of going to a rigorous school vs. the importance of getting a high GPA in med school admissions, but one thing is for certain: you are very unlikely to succeed at a school you do not like. You clearly do not want to go to this school nor do you carry any respect for it, its programs, or any of its students. Like I said, perhaps what you are saying are "facts" But just the fact that your posts have been heavily polarized towards the negative aspects of the school suggests that you will be unhappy there. Premed is tough enough. You don't need to be doing it at a school you don't like.</p>

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<p>ahh, see? constructive opinions does help, no? that helps and i see your point. at last, thank you norcal.</p>

<p>any other thoughts?</p>

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<p>well, actually, coming back to the issue i really wanted to address and setting all other factors aside: would going to a third tier college affect my chances of getting into med school?</p>

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<p>So "setting all factors aside" - meaning equal GPA, EC's, MCATs - yes, going to a 3rd tier school certainly can't help you. Now, if you do better at that school than you would have somewhere else, maybe going was a good thing. I considered UTD, btw - the dorms look gorgeous in the brochure, and they have a really interesting program in cochlear implantation which looked fascinating - i just didn't want to lock myself into something so narrow so early - i'm at Rice now.</p>

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<p>why do you think you'll get into almost any of the top colleges? Your grades and scores are competitive, but most people who apply to top tier schools (i.e. Harvard, Yale, MIT, Princenton, Stanford) have a lot more than just perfect scores. On the other hand though, it doesn't hurt to apply because you never know. Also, i think name does make a difference for med school because usually when you go to top tier undergraduate schools you have more opportunities and connections and you can still get good grades and a good MCAT score, so in the end I think students from the best schools end up doing better, but of course this is just generally speaking.</p>

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<p>go for top tier
dont take the easy way out of life</p>

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<p>I agree with pmit and say that the OP shouldn't get too arrogant. The top-tier schools see plenty of applicants with stats that are similar to the OP and reject plenty of them. Take Caltech for instance. The OP's SAT score would place him/her at less than the 25th percentile of Caltech's entering class. </p>

<p>Having said that, I've said it before and I'll say it again - if you want to do premed, then you want to go to a school in which you will get high grades, which may or may not be a top-tier school. You may indeed be better off by going to a no-name school and pulling high grades that get you into med-school rather than going to a top-tier school and getting bad grades such that you don't get into med-school. The grading at a particular school is based on the philosophy of the school and the competition from the other students. At some schools, it's practically impossible to get a truly bad grade, as long as you do the work. At other schools, many students do massive amounts of work and study like dogs and still get bad grades. Med-school adcoms, however, don't really seem to care very much that some schools are more difficult than others. They just want to see high grades, period, and don't really care much about how hard it is to get them, as long as you get them. You may want to ask calkidd what he has to say about that.</p>

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<p>your a little wrong there sakky. when you apply from a top school to med-school they adjust your gpa. from the lower schools they keep it level and dont touch it. but when you are talking ivies then the scores are boosted a little because of difficulty of curriculum</p>

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<p>hmm..alrite. thanks for the input.</p>

<p>and sorry if i came across as arrogant. i meant that i can <em>probably</em> get in, or at least "qualify". and i meant the top cc schools (according to the list on the forums), i didnt say ivy because i dont think i can make ivys, heh.</p>

<p>but okay, i see everyones point. thanks.</p>

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<p>Bigndude, that whole idea of 'grade-compensation' that you have referred to is a widely held belief, but probably no more than that. Although it has been asserted numerous times that that is what happens, nobody has yet come up with any proof that that is in fact what happens. </p>

<p>I would also challenge the assertion that the Ivies are really all that difficult. The reality is that with the exception of Cornell, the Ivies tend to be grade-inflated. It is rare to get a truly bad grade at an Ivy, and next-to-impossible to actually flunk out. Bottom line, if you go to an Ivy, then as long as you do the work, you are basically assured of coming out with at least a half-decent GPA. This is a far cry from other schools where flunking out is a constant danger. </p>

<p>Case in point. Consider the non-Ivy league school of MIT. I think we would all agree that MIT is one of the most difficult, if not the most difficult school in the entire country. It is extremely difficult to get a high GPA from MIT. Classes are notoriously difficult.</p>

<p>Yet do the med-school adcoms seem to care about that when assessing MIT premeds? Apparently, not really. MIT premeds who were admitted into med-school had an average GPA of 3.7/4. Furthermore, more than 1/4 of all MIT premeds who apply to med-school get rejected from every single med-school they apply to. That's right - every single one. Look at the data, if you don't believe me. If grade compensation were really taking place, then the adcoms should realize that MIT is an extremely difficult school and would therefore adjust accordingly such that admitted MIT premeds would have lower average GPA's, and would be admitting a lot more MIT premeds The data indicates that that is not happening. The adcoms demand the same high grades from MIT premeds as they do from other premeds, despite the legendary difficulty of MIT. </p>

<p><a href="http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.mit.edu/career/www/infostats/preprof.html&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Take a look at the stats of the average admitted Duke and Princeton premeds. I think that even the most vociferous Princeton and Duke fanatic would concede that their schools give out easier grades than MIT does. Yet the data shows that Duke and Princeton premeds are actually getting in with LOWER grades than MIT premeds are. Ask yourself, why is that? </p>

<p><a href="http://www.aas.duke.edu/trinity/prehealth/success/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.aas.duke.edu/trinity/prehealth/success/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p><a href="http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/2004.pdf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://web.princeton.edu/sites/hpa/2004.pdf&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>Finally, let's break down the premed stats for UCBerkeley. Berkeley's stats are highly informative because they actually show the data for individual med-schools. Berkeley is also a quite difficult school at which to get a high GPA. Yet you will notice that the average admitted Berkeley premeds at a particular med-school carry basically, the same average, if not higher, GPA than the average GPA of all admitted premeds at that med-school. You can find that average GPA of all admitted premeds at the second URL below.</p>

<p><a href="http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/top20.stm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://career.berkeley.edu/MedStats/top20.stm&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/ucsf%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/ucsf&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/ucla%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/ucla&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/stanford%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/stanford&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/washington-university%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/washington-university&lt;/a>
<a href="http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/columbia/%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.medicalschooladmission.com/columbia/&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

<p>For example, let's just take a look at some of the data for the top-ranked medical schools. Column 1 is the average GPA of 2003 Berkeley premeds at that med-school. Column 2 is the average GPA of all premeds at that med-school.</p>

<p>UCSF - 3.85, 3.71
UCLA - 3.85, 3.69
Stanford - 3.91, 3.8
Columbia - 3.93, 3.79
WU in St Louis - 3.88, 3.81
(Note, I can't do an analysis of Berkeley premeds who get into Harvard, Johns Hopkins, Yale, and several other elite med-schools, because there are so few Berkeley premeds who actually do get into those med-schools). </p>

<p>By all means, do the analysis yourself, and you will come up with the same conclusion that I did. The med-school adcoms actually demand a HIGHER gpa from Berkeley premeds than they demand from all premeds, despite the fact that Berkeley is a difficult program. That's right - a HIGHER gpa. </p>

<p>The point is, I've seen no evidence of any GPA compensation, and in fact, much evidence to the contrary. If you actually have statistical evidence that demonstrates that such compensation exists, then by all means, let's see it.</p>

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<p>Sure those people may have higher gpas and MCAT scores and the such, but they dont get in for a reason. Many of the people from MIT lack social skills. At a med school interview they detect this and they dont someone like that for med. school. You can have the highest gpa possible and awesome MCATs, but if you lack good social skills you wont get in. Case in point I know someone who got into med. school it a low gpa, medium MCAT score, and very good social skills. </p>

<p>Heres something talking about GPA leveling from UCONN:
"The GPA is separated into two averages on the application. The first is BCPM average. It averages your biology, chemistry, physics, and math scores. This average, statistically speaking, holds the single greatest weight in your application. Overall GPA ranks high as well. Some consideration is taken into account concerning your overall GPA with respect to your major and the colleges and universities associated with your education. UCONN is a middle tier school. Therefore, it is unlikely that the admissions committees will alter your GPA for this reason. An engineering major is considered slightly more difficult than other programs of study. Therefore, this is taken into account when the application is reviewed. "</p>

<p><a href="http://www.bme.uconn.edu/PreMed/Home%20Page/main.htm%5B/url%5D"&gt;http://www.bme.uconn.edu/PreMed/Home%20Page/main.htm&lt;/a&gt;&lt;/p>

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<p>So Sakky, what would be your explanation as to why med schools demand higher GPA's from tougher schools? Let's face it, I don't think med school adcoms just got together and said "Let's accept students with lower GPA's from easier schools and higher GPA's from more rigorous schools" I would hope that you give admissions officers more credit than that. What must be examined is what Berkeley and MIT graduates lack in relation to those other graduates that force them to have to compensate with a higher GPA.</p>

<p>BTW: This still doesn't answer the original poster's question. You're comparing top schools to top schools.</p>

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<p>sakky, I'm not sure if you go to MIT or not, but even on the other thread you keep bringing up MIT students. First of all, at MIT when you graduate you're supposed to report your GPA and where you're going for grad school, work, med school, etc to the careers office. A lot of people don't report their information. Second of all, med schools do realize MIT is much harder to get good grades at. Just this year my friend who has a 3.4 ( a 4.4 on MIT's 5.0 scale) got into University of Chicago medical school and he's not a minority. Also another thing is a lot of the time MIT students do lack in social skills and don't do well in their interviews. I've talked to so many physicians and surgeons who are at the top of their respective fields and they've all said that MIT students have a different way of thinking which becomes very useful in medicine. So, before you go on bashing MIT premeds, get your fact straight.</p>