Prestige/Expensive vs. Good/Cheap

Parents Forum
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<p>My son is at MIT. And many of his friends are at the University of Washington. MIT is providing my son with an education that is astonishingly better than that of his friends, although much more expensive, much harder, and far more time-consuming. Of the nine friends who went to UW planning to major in engineering, ZERO are graduating in engineering. I believe that kind of screening and removal is very common in state schools with limited funding. (UW has an excellent neuroscience program, for example... but it's limited to 48 students.) </p>

<p>The private colleges have an enormous stake in seeing their students succeed; the public colleges have limited funds.</p>

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<p>to the OP-- we don't have as good an in-state option as you do, but our son would have ended up at another State U close to us, and even paying out-of-state it would have been cheaper than MIT.</p>

<p>It was worth it to us-- but then again, if he'd gone the state school route I might have been insisting it was the right option, who knows. All I can tell you is that if MIT is the dream school., as it clearly was for our son, it is a very special place. There are opportunities to work with "famous" professors from day one.... my son was eating lunch one day and a professor sat down next to him and started to chat.... that guy won a Nobel prize two weeks later and the campus went wild-- he was adored by students in addition to all of his research and "high end" activities. </p>

<p>Your kid will work harder and harder and harder than he ever thought possible-- the work load is enormous and never really lets up, and the better you get at something, the more they throw at you. If he's looking for that sort of intensity, and a place where the "cool kids" are the math nerds and not the beautiful people-- it can be a most liberating, exhilarating place.</p>

<p>re the financial sacrifices--it is a pretty "blue collar" environment, filled with kids who are loaded up with loans, work-study (mostly UROP's, which is MIT speak for student research jobs which pay pretty well, even for a Freshman), summer jobs, and lots of sacrifice from the family as well. Unlike some other colleges where I hear there is social pressure if you're not running off to ski vacations and some exotic island over Xmas-- the MIT kids we met were mostly there having already broken the bank. The Internationals especially-- at some schools they are the "rich kids" and are a way for the university to charge full freight. At MIT we met kids from third world countries being sponsored by their governments or the military or a private foundation.... their families weren't even middle class by our standards. These kids are grateful just to be given the opportunity to be there.</p>

<p>Another consideration-- it is realistic to graduate in 3 and a half years, and quite possible to do it in 3 although it's a grind. We know a few kids who did the four years but ended up with both an undergrad and master's degree.... not bad for four years. Especially for kids looking to do a PhD- shaving a year off of undergrad, considering that virtually everyone will get a good financial deal for the doctorate, is a way to save some bucks.</p>

<p>So that's the good news- if your son likes to work hard and doesn't mind shouldering the loans, and has a realistic idea of what it will take income-wise to pay them off, then it's worth thinking seriously about. My son has friends who took "sell out jobs" (investment banks, hedge funds, etc.) which pay a fortune-- and they live like grad students and are paying off the loans quickly. It may not be what they want to do for the rest of their lives, but the job offers these kids get are staggering.... and as long as they don't develop a taste for expensive champagne along the way, will provide a lot of options down the road.</p>

<p>I'm not advocating that as the reason to go to MIT.... but that's a financial strategy that kids we know are using, along with ROTC and all the usual financing strategies (i.e home equity loan, etc.)</p>

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<p>Blossom: your description of MIT matches my son's (and my own) experiences there and describes the place far more successfully than I did. Thanks.</p>

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<p>Astromom,</p>

<p>We have a HS junior and are starting to think along the same lines. Good state school, well-regarded in intended majors, excellent chance of merit money vs. private. For some schools, the financial pain will be worth it. (We refuse to touch retirement, but home equity is open to consideration. And DS will be working/borrowing, too. Sweat equity is a good thing, IMHO.) But for a lot of other schools, it would have to be one sweet, sweet deal for it to be on the table at the end of the day. </p>

<p>We have another kid two years behind DS1 and I have medical issues, so there is a limit to how far out on a limb we're willing to climb financially. On the other hand, DS is much more concerned about the program's reputation and grad school placement than the school brand name. I know there is overlap between these categories, but my point is that he's not looking for the Brand Name College diploma in whatever major he can graduate with.</p>

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<p>Back when I was choosing my law school in the mid-1970's, I made the decision simply by drawing a grid of the qualities in a school that were important to me; what each school had; and cost. Seeing it that way really left nothing to debate. Prestige/ranking was a factor on the chart. How each thing is valued depends on the individual. </p>

<p>It is not clear from your post whether there are EA decisions for either Harvard or MIT, or if the "dream" remains merely that. Assuming that you haven't heard -- I have to say, it is very hard to make a decision properly considering the prestige factor while it is still hypothetical. Or to put it another way, it is really easy to discount the value of the prestige college as long as it has not yet admitted your child -- it is much, much harder to contemplate declining an offer of admission that has been extended. </p>

<p>There is an intangible value in the prestige college. It probably depends somewhat on the student and the intended major -- but the contacts that the student makes with faculty and other students are going to have a little more value at the prestige college. I mean, my daughter's college advisor has a pretty impressive job title, and she has had a lot of contact with the advisor .... I have a feeling that a recommendation letter from this prof. would mean a lot down the line. (Of course, my d. points out that that it is quite possible that the advisor's impression of her is not all that great - just because you know someone well doesn't mean that they like you). </p>

<p>Sometimes when I have faced difficult decisions, I try to take a retrospective look at it: how will I feel years down the line over the decision? Will I always regret the road not taken? </p>

<p>With my daughter, during the college admissions process, I gave her these financial ground rules: (1) She was required to apply to our in-state publics - the UC system - and apply for need-based financial aid; (2) I was willing to pay for the most-expensive UC campus, after financial aid was considered, and to pay that amount toward any college -- that is, if it turned out that it would cost $15K to attend Berkeley, and $10K to attend Santa Cruz, then she was assured of at least $15K from me for any college, anywhere; (3) If a private college cost more than that, the answer was "we'll see".</p>

<p>I learned that my own "we'll see" limits were stretched a lot as soon as the fat envelope with the name of an Ivy League college arrived. (Barnard is very wise to include "Columbia University" on its letterhead). So again... it really isn't a decision you can make until you actually have the choice -- and at that point it is highly personal.</p>

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<p>I would also have to agree that UNC-CH surpasses 'the good state school' definition. After all, Newsweek did crown UNC one of the 'new Ivies'... ;) </p>

<p>Seriously, our d is currently a freshman in the honors program at UNC-CH, and my husband and I daily congratulate each other on what smart move this was. She has a small, partial scholarship; but even if we were paying full freight, UNC would be a fantastic deal. Though it looks as though oos tuition is gonna get a small bump, room and board is absurdly cheap there. </p>

<p>We already know we'll be paying for grad school or possibly med school and UNC accomplishes two things... with a decent ug gpa from UNC, she'll be seriously considered at all top shelf grad schools/med schools AND we can afford to pay for it! And our younger son gets to go to a decent school too. She could be at Cornell with NO scholarship right now and we would be substantially poorer with no significant educational advantage to show for it.</p>

<p>Btw....never, ever consider tapping the retirement fund for college. Take that right off the table.</p>

<p>And one other thing... Ivy or top 10 undergraduate is NOT the only way into a top 10 law school or graduate program. My brother-in-law graduated from Colorado State and rec'd his JD from Stanford Law. (He had killer LSAT scores and that seems to be the great equalizer.)</p>

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<p>
[quote]
We already know we'll be paying for grad school

[/quote]
</p>

<p>A strong student who has a chance of being admitted to an elite undergraduate program should expect to be fully funded for academic graduate school. Med school of course is different, but a graduate degree in sciences or engineering should be fully funded.</p>

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<p>Do find a good financial advisor/planner ASAP. That'd definitely help alot.</p>

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<p>dmd:
to PLAN to major in engineering is very different from actually DOING it, no matter what school a person attends. There is a reason almost nobody is admitted straight into this kind of major. So I don't see how 9 non-engineers translate into inferior education.</p>

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<p>There is no way any of us can answer your questions. We don't know, and should not know, your financial situation. On a personal level, I would have a tough time with your choices. Private college costs have gotten so large that is would be difficult to pass up much lower costs at a first rate State U.</p>

<p>Much of the decision would hinge on the individual kid. My older D is very smart but was never academically motivated. She lived at home and went to the local State U. The relatively unchallenging academics fit her. She was motivated by easy A's and graduated phi beta kappa. Her college education cost us almost nothing. The younger D was a whole other problem. She is probably not as smart but she is very self disciplined, focused, competitive, and ambitious. On the negative side, she tends not to do well unless she is challenged. She was awarded merit scholarships for more than the cost of attendance at the local State U. Instead we decided to pay big bucks and make large sacrifices to send her to a very selective, private U. She is now in her sophomore year and I am sure the costs are worth it. She is more than adequately challenged and is fighting for a "B" average. She also takes 20+ credits every semester and remains a very happy, motivated kid who tries to take advantage of every opportunity. She may be destined for great things in life - or not, but the opportunities she has seem worth the cost. The challenges and opportunites she has are way beyond what she would have had at the local State U.</p>

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<p>Everyone has made very interesting and worthwhile contributions to this thread; however, it always comes down to personal choice and values. If $ is aconcern, you just need to consider less expensive schools. There are many excellent colleges out there that will "fit" the student and where he/she will be successful. And there's always the element of luck, too. I know of someone who went to a no-name, low in the rankings, commuter-only, religious-oriented college who is making very big bucks in research and enjoying all the perks and prestige that go with it. From this no-name college, he persevered and went on to an elite graduate school....So, you just never know. Maybe the graduate program is more important than the undergraduate program (?) Something to think about....</p>

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<p>UC schools (in-state tuition) or UNC - Chapel Hill (OOS tuition) for economic or finance degree. S is now deciding. </p>

<p>As my ony child I would love him to stay somewhere i with the 5 hour by car method Plus...living away from home surrounded by all new people (and NC is diff than CA )</p>

<p>S is excited by UNC's finance and economics dept and the talented profs. I think our CA UCs are equal. He points to the companies who hire directly from UNC and the starting salaries. I have no response...<br>
Does anyone?</p>

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<p>California is the sixth largest economy in the world. China is fifth. North Carolina is???</p>

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<p>Parabella: in private engineering schools such as RPI, CalTech, and MIT, everyone is in fact able to directly enter into their major without further evaluation. At public colleges the programs are often restricted; IMO, they exclude students who have the skills to be successful and who would succeed if admitted. This appears to happen because of limited funding. </p>

<p>A student who aspires to a particular career should be aware that there may be internal limitations to access to educational programs, that even if admitted to the university, one might not be admitted to a particular undergraduate program.</p>

<p>Three of the students you describe as "failed engineers" would have been excellent candidates for a private college--good SATs, 4.0 GPAs, FIRST participation at the national level--but went to UWashington for financial reasons. IMHO, it has cost them more than they saved; they aren't going to be engineers any time soon.</p>

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<p>

As far as luck goes, kids who go to elite schools for undergrad seem to have more of it. It's a challenge to stay motivated enough in college to make it into an elite grad school program no matter where you are, but it's a substantial help to come from a small elite school as an undergrad, which I think is due to more research opportunities, better professor contacts, and more GPA leeway.</p>

<p>I had a 3.4 at MIT and was admitted last year to all of the top PhD programs in my field, largely on the strength of my research experience and recommendations. I don't think it would have been that easy had I gone to a larger school.</p>

<p>Of course kids from "less prestigious" schools get into very prestigious grad programs. But a lot more kids from "prestigious" schools get into those same programs.</p>

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<p>Another factor my D considered in making her decision was how challenged she wanted to be academically and how she wanted to fit in academically with the student body as a whole. Coming from a HS where she was at the very top of the class, she wanted to go to a college where she knew she would not necessarily be at the top, even with very hard work. She felt she would grow more intellectually and academically if she were surrounded by a higher concentration of highly motivated, intelligent students. Again, it's a personal decision, even aside from finances.</p>

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<p>It's not just a question of prestige - there are differences that can affect the academic quality and performance. It really depends on a kid's learning style and preferences as well as the opportunities offered. Kids should look at how large the classes are at the schools they're considering - most state schools have very large classes. It was a big factor for my DD (who turned down a sizeable scholarship to Syracuse).</p>

<p>In the example above regarding potential engineers (or science majors like my DS), class size and weeding out methods can be a huge factor. A calculus class capped at 20 students is a very different environment from a calc class that seats 200-300 students (my own experience at a state school). It can make a big difference - but it depends on the student... My DS, who is a HS senior, class size may not be a deciding factor. He is as excited by UNC & UVA as some of the smaller privates he applied to.</p>

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<p>OK- our smart high-acheiving son chose Penn State Honors (instate) over a few top 30 schools (no ivies - he did NOT get into the one he applied to). During the application process, we told him that, if he did get in to an expensive private with no merit, we would have to talk about how we would share the financial burden. We would pay a good chunk of it but he would need to contribute. Since he had multiple scholarships at PSU, the cost was minimal and we are able to save big $ for him toward grad school. Is a a school like Wake Forest worth 4 times the cost of PSU honors? Different folks would arrive a different answers on that one, but in our case, after he visited, the honors program was a "no brainer" (his words).
He is a happy freshman now. Not sure how this would have gone if he got into the Ivy though - since he seems quite impressed with prestige.
To the OP - good luck to you - it's a really tough choice (but a nice problem to have!) UNC is a GREAT option.</p>

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<p>Astrophysicsmom, you asked how others have made the final decision. Two years ago, I had a ton of spreadsheets, had devised my own formula for evaluating the cost/selectivity relationship, and had analyzed the choices as objectively as possible.</p>

<p>Then we went with our hearts! S1 could have had a full ride at a couple of well-known, selective private colleges, but also had acceptances to two Ivy's without aid. There are days when I really question our sanity -- we could certainly be more comfortable financially if we had made a different choice. But, like you, we COULD come up with the additional money, although through loans and stringent lifestyle choices. We do think it was the right choice, and we are prepared to allow S2 to apply ED to the same school. </p>

<p>In the end, once your basic needs are met, what would you do with the extra money? If you don't qualify for financial aid, then your income must be more that $140k per year (the difference in cost you quote.) So, you might look at it as putting off retirement for a year or two. Or, maybe you buy a Honda instead of a Lexus. Life is always about choices, and in the end, what do you value the most? For us, it's education. We don't plan to leave the kids a ton of money, but we hope to provide them with the best education we can -- for us that meant opting for full fare at a wonderful school.</p>

<p>By the way, H and I graduated from one of the UC's. H is now fairly senior in his organization, and manages many who have degrees -- mostly M.S. or PhD -- from more elite schools, including MIT etc. Yet, even he would say that progress would have been a little easier if he had attended MIT or Caltech. Graduating from a prestigious school doesn't guarantee success, but it can grease the skids.</p>

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<p>My d got full tuition from Worcester Polytechnic and 60k from RPI. We are in Florida, so UF tuition is free (Bright Futures schoolarship) and room and board is cheap. She wants to go in WPI. We kind of prefer UF just because it is higher ranked than WPI and pretty close to RPI in rankings. She did not apply to Ivy, still did not get anything from WUSTL. Expect that she will be accepted but possibly without scholarship. She is still undecided if she wants to go pre med and medical school or finance and grad school after that. We told her that she can go in any grad school she would be accepted. We are immigrants, so did not attend school in US and do not have college experience here. Any thoughts on these schools, advise, please. Thank you.</p>