<p>My DD and I had a discussion during the drive on one of our college visits. I asked her if she felt the education at HYP would be $140K better than one at another good LAC which offers merit aid. After a very brief thought she said no. I'll have the same discussion with DD2 next year (with hopefully the same answer).</p>
<p>to the OP-- also worth checking out is how many kids graduate in four years. I'm sure UNC has fantastic resources and counseling.... but my neighborhood is filled with kids on the 5 and 6 year plan at both the Flagship and the lesser branches of our state u. It's still cheaper than four years at one of the privates.... but the gap is closing, and the opportunity costs for those two years (working a good job, being in grad school, startiing to pay off the loans instead of increasing them....) are very high.</p>
<p>dmd: first of all I didn't say anything about "failed" . :-) Second of all, scores and grades may have nothing to do with the major being RIGHT for the entering student. My own child was planning to major in biochemistrybeing easily successfull in high school, then he started taking bio and chem classes at our local U and realized that it's not for him, he just didn't feel it, even with exellent grades he got. Luckily it happened BEFORE he started college. somehow I find it hard to believe that fully qualified students of MIT calibre couldn't make it into engineering major at UW. Maybe they realized they'd rather major in something else? :-)</p>
<p>But for those of us who are fortunate enough to live in Michigan (or Virginia or California), aren't U of M (or UVA or Berkley) prestigious enough? There has to be a law of diminishing returns at some point.</p>
<p>There is a lot of prestigious schools that are not expensive...UT austin, U florida , UW-seattle, U of arizona, U of minnesota, U wisconsin</p>
<p>SBDad -- for those who live in Michigan or CA etc, the issue is often size. It's just a very different experience attending a school with an undergraduate population of 5,000 -- 6,000 than it is to attend one with 40,000. But, assuming that a family can afford the full fare at a private school, I think it still comes down to what people choose to spend their money on.</p>
<p>SBDad, there are parents who want to send their kid to a North East school for under grad work. Also there are those who feel that a small LAC is a much better fit. I often tell of our good friends who were staunch supporter of state schools until one of their kids got to college bound years and they had to face that he was one that was NOT going to thrive at UILL--UC as their others, and they had. It was that clear even to those staunch Illini.</p>
<p>My point was not about fit, but about prestige.</p>
<p>For astronomy, UNC is a pretty good bargain in-state. My roommate took Intro to Astronomy last year, and the first thing the professor told them was that if they wanted to do astronomy, they should've gone to UNC. Besides, how many schools have their own planetarium? ;)</p>
<p>Then again, many of the top schools are in an arms race to eliminate EFC and loans for families making under a certain amount ($45-60k). I don't know if this applies to you or not.</p>
<p>SBDad, I know many families who are now looking at those state schools even out of state, and if their kid can get generous merit money at them, they will choose one over HPY for the exact reason you state. But there are many for whom money is no object and those like Lazerbrother who will give up a kidney to send their kid to HPY et al. And the et al may not include Michigan, Va or Ca state schools. Wouldn't go there for free if they had that choice.</p>
<p>
[quote]
But for those of us who are fortunate enough to live in Michigan (or Virginia or California), aren't U of M (or UVA or Berkley)
[/quote]
My daughter was accepted to Berkeley, Santa Cruz & Santa Barbara. She is at a private college, but if she had needed to choose among the campuses she would have turned down Berkeley & opted for either UCSB or UCSC. I would have encouraged my son to make a similar choice 5 years earlier (to turn down Berkeley in favor of Santa Cruz) (He opted for a private LAC). </p>
<p>I love Berkeley, but it can be a tough place for an undergrad. I think the washout rate in the sciences may be the environment as much as course difficulty -- it's just that if a kid is in a lecture with 800 students, it doesn't foster much in the was of a feeling of worth or commitment. I myself was a science washout at a UC campus -- I had a B+ my first quarter of chem, but I dropped in the 2nd quarter and enrolled in a Shakespeare class instead. I think the fact that the English class had about 30 students was a big factor -- it just felt more comfortable being in a class where I could reasonably expect the prof. to learn my name.</p>
<p>Calmom </p>
<p>my sons decided against the UC schools for similar reasons. With OOS tuition high, very large classes many taught by TA's, and overcrowded dorms they simply did not seem like a good deal. AS we looked we even found a state U with a cap of 50 students on their freshman Math classes and English classes are capped at 23. Yes these do exists out there.</p>
<p>I totally agree and understand the basic differences between LAC's and large state schools. But it was my understanding that what we were taking about was prestige and it seems calmom and others are talking about "fit". All I'm saying is that there is a significant level of prestige attached to Michigan, Berkley and UVA and question whether paying $30,000 more per year to go the HYPS route is really worth it, especially if you are taking the money out of future retirement funds ( and not your trust fund ) to do it.</p>
<p>SBDad, I do think that there is a significant difference in the level of prestige between the excellent public U's you name and the top 20 or so private schools. Many of the privates are fairly small -- it therefore is a limited commodity, and their selectivity acts as a gating device for alumnae. There will probably always be a halo effect as the result of attending certain schools -- whether or not it is always deserved, people will assume that a graduate is pretty bright.</p>
<p>astrophysicsmom: My daughter is a sophomore at UNC (in-state), and she truly loves it. She also graduated at the top of her class at a nationally ranked and academically rigorous high school. She is certainly challenged academically at UNC. She's in honors, and as a result of AP and IB, she was also able to bypass a lot of intro courses and move into somewhat more advanced courses as a freshman.</p>
<p>Back when she was applying to schools, she kept making return visits to UNC, and every time she would visit, or call, or do more research on the school (for what she was interested in), it just seemed to stand heads and shoulders above all the rest. UNC was also the largest school to which she applied, yet the people there were consistently helpful, welcoming, and were always on top of things. This was in sharp contrast with the experience she had at a few of the (very well known and highly ranked) private universities in which she was also interested. From our viewpoint, the way they treat prospective students is very positive. We were certainly impressed from the get-go.</p>
<p>She did ultimately receive a truly wonderful scholarship, but even before that occurred, she had pretty much made the decision that this was the school she wanted to attend. UNC just had more of what she was interested in--on many levels--but certainly including a strong study abroad program, excellent departments in her majors, a gorgeous campus, and a viable and lively town right across the street. She also liked the people when she visited, and felt very comfortable with the campus and its size (~16,000 undergraduates). </p>
<p>Feel free to pm me if you have any questions, and I can also tell you more about her experience there. I will just add that the school (which should certainly be defined as more than simply a "good" school) has definitely lived up to both its promise and expectations.</p>
<p>SBDad -- I think we're talking about both. However the thread was titled, the issue is whether the prestige school is worth paying more for -- and part of the issue that comes into play is, "what more does it offer notwithstanding the prestige?"</p>
<p>Wow--thanks for all the input and advice. We were at the Scholarship Day event at UNC today, and I had the same conversation with several of the parents there, too. I see a big spreadsheet with numbers, pros and cons in our future..... As someone said, it's a great position to be in.</p>
<p>Jack,</p>
<p>My experience mirrors yours. As big as it is, Michigan has been more responsive, personal and "on top of it” than the other highly selective private schools on the list. Going into the college search and selection process, I would have never thought that would have been the case.</p>
<p>One example. DS is a jazz pianist who wants to continue playing, but not major in music. Two emails and a phone call to "Prestige U" about the jazz program yielded no response. Finally reached someone in the music department on the second phone call and the response was "Oh, you know those jazz types. They're kind of in their own world." Ultimately, never got any information from the head of the jazz program.</p>
<p>At Michigan, one email to the head of Jazz Studies yielded a same day return email. She wanted to hear a sample of playing, suggested a double major in Jazz Studies and set up a jam session with a bass player for the Campus Day visit.</p>
<p>And this is not the only example I could give you of such behavior.</p>
<p>So I learned that size doesn't necessarily correlate to individual attention. It was a major paradigm shift for me. Of course, your mileage may vary.</p>
<p>My take is different from most of the contributors on this thread. The conversation tends to be about prestige, which I assume to mean the impressiveness of the degree to others, and academic quality, which I assume to mean the scope and value of what is learned. But neither of those factors are the strongest predictors of future goals and aspirations. The strongest impact on those outcomes is the peer group. The value of four years in the company of national and international superstar achievers who are expected to be the leaders of their generation is profound, and impacts a student's future life in ways far exceeding their earning potential. The decision to attend UNC-CH is an outstanding one in every respect - a student who chooses that route is likely to treasure it always and will never regret it. There will be some superstars and amazing peers there as well. But the peer experience at HYPSM is simply going to be different, and the inspiration to live up to the standards of those colleagues is going to be life-altering.</p>
<p>GDad: Do you have studies that point to the importance of the peer group at the college level? The research I have seem have pointed to the PERSON, not the environment. Personally, I have many friends (and a few family members) with Ivy degrees. Of course, I have friends and family members with degrees from state Us and lesser known privates as well. I have to say I see NO pattern at all in terms of professional success for Ivy Grads vs non-Ivy grads. Yes, I suppose you can argue that surrounding yourself with geniuses might be beneficial - but the question on this board seems to be - is it worth a TWO HUNDRED THOUSAND DOLLARS. If you have the money and that's the right fit for you - sure. If you don't or will struggle - I just can't see it. And what exactly do you mean by life altering?</p>