Prestige/Expensive vs. Good/Cheap

Parents Forum
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<p>Prestige is that immeasurable among people. For those who do not have to worry about money, I don't think they would think twice about which school (some exceptions, I'm sure, but for the most part) to choose HPY or elite state U. Unless there is traditions, a special interest, or a sports bias (yeah, it happens) for the State U, off to HPY, they'll go. But when you need to worry about the money, and you are looking at special programs, the Honors program and opportunities, that is when the balance starts to shift. Some are so stuck with the HPY aura that it would not even be a consideration, but not everyone is so inflexible. </p>

<p>I can tell you that these rising prices are bringing in some converts. A neighbor is now feeling the reality of the $50K per year + cost of a GW eduation. Her son is in his second year, and it this is about when it really becomes difficult to cough up the funds. She will have another one in college his senior year, and the idea of coming up with double that amount
is a financial wrecking ball even for those who are "no need" but not in the truly wealthy category. I think they would be most amenable to a funded UVa or UNC or UMich over an ivy. I know a friend of my son's went to UVA over Dartmouth without money being a concern since he is OOS and the differential was not enormous with famlly able to cover it.</p>

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<p>toneranger: First, your $200k difference rarely applies. There are relatively equal costs for room and board, travel, clothing, and personal expenses. Then there are also tuition and fees for the State U's. The difference in total costs is likely to be way less than half the amount you mention.</p>

<p>There are very few studies with hard data to demonstrate the value of elite colleges. As you can readily imagine, it is all but impossible to factor out differences in family wealth (and connections) and differences in pre-college academic measures and then to determine, over time, the effect of a more rigorous education. There is one such study that is frequently quoted since it confirmed there was only about a 15% measureable difference. This study mainly involved 2nd tier schools in comparison with average colleges. Even the 15% income differential adds up to a huge amount over a lifetime of work, but honestly the study was so poorly done that I consider it worthless.</p>

<p>I would tend to agree with you. I think that for some kids the difference will not be worth the cost. That was certainly true for my older D. My younger D is totally different. She is clearly in a life-altering mode at her top 20 school. Last summer, she re-took a calculus course at the local State U. She remarked about the differences. The textbooks were similar but the depth and demand were much different. At the State U, the prof was very nice, taught at a much more basic level and tried to get students interested and tried to convince them to study and do problem sets outside of class. At her regular college, the kids are smarter and more motivated. The same course covered much more material at a faster rate. You could also make the point that the speed and depth were too much for my D. She struggled to get a C and that is one reason she wanted to re-take the course. That semester she was also taking a total of 24 credits and had several organized activities outside of classes.</p>

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<p>SBDad: Just now saw your post. Yes, I agree completely about the size of a school not "necessarily correlating to individual attention." We, too, were pleasantly surprised. What we (as parents) and our daughter, as a prospective student, experienced in the application stage was not at all what any of us expected. Again, the individual attention that UNC is able to give to prospective (and current) students is impressive. As stated earlier, the school has certainly lived up to its promise.</p>

<p>gadad: While I understand your perspective, I find it a little scary. Spending every minute of every day with "national and international superstar achievers" seems like it could be very stressful and wearing (to me), not to mention that this sounds like a bit of a "hot house" atmosphere. I also think the naming/recognition of "national and international superstar achievers" is somewhat subjective. I also would hope that most people would strive to live up to their own individual standards, rather than attempt to live up to someone else's standards. Also, I believe students (people) can be inspired in many different ways, and by many types of people.</p>

64

<p>I don't know about 'studies' pointing to higher 'success' (I assume that means $$$), but I do know that I LOVE, ADORE, HAVE TO HAVE challenging peer groups. High school just about killed me for that reason. I was surronded by twits.</p>

<p>then I went to a private university and met kids from all over the world. That experience--more than the admin or professor's attention--is what exploded my notion of myself and put me on a path of adventure, success (personal, intellectual, artistic, professional and financial) and happiness.</p>

<p>My husband had a similar experience. That experience is worth $200K. Easy. Happy to pay that.</p>

<p>Secondly, I believe intellectual interests are better supported in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic states. American intellectuals, by and large, prefer to live in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic for social and historical reasons. They can't all teach at HYPM and Columbia and Georgetown. </p>

<p>The $200K is not purchasing a 'career'. Why bother? It is not that hard for the upper middle class to make money in the US. One of my sons has already been told by a VC that he doesn't need to go to college to be a millionaire. I am puchasing an education for my children in the hopes that they might they have an intellectual component to their lives. Paying for them to be in the vicinity of so many high-powered intellectuals living in the Northeast is part of my strategy. Paying for them to be in amongst the most challenging peer group their apps allowed is another part of the strategy.</p>

<p>As for prestige, on the global stage where I live and work, where prestige is more important than in the US, an Ivy degree is a door opener for financial success.</p>

65

<p>So, are you saying that kids at Michigan Honors College would not meet high achieving, intellectual peers from all around the world? That Nobel laureate professors at Chicago are somehow inferior to those in Northeast schools. That those poor slobs stuck in the intellectual wastelands of Cal Tech and Stanford are all waiting for their chance to fulfill their intellectual challenges in the Northeast? </p>

<p>"American intellectuals, by and large, prefer to live in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic for social and historical reasons."</p>

<p>What is your support for such a broad brush statement?</p>

<p>If that's the kind of worldview you get from a Northeast education, count me out.</p>

66

<p>dad4son: Excellent post. </p>

<p>(I honestly wasn't sure if cheers was being amusing or deadly serious.) ??</p>

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<p>cheers:
we are happy to pay anything for our S's education. The question is, where to find $200K to spare. Believe it or not, it's not always easy( or possible for that matter) for us poor slobs of the lower middle class( we do exist, you know) . So, I guess, no intellectual paradise of the Northeast for us, no challenging peer groups, no millions to make in hours we can spare from enlightened discourse. Woe is us.</p>

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<p>parabella</p>

<p>Happily, it's not like that. Son recently graduated from a top tier college with a family likely in your economic range, and the most we paid for a term was $837. We've become solidly middle class since and will have to pay more for the daughter starting a top tier school in September, but still less than we would need to at out state university.
Don't close out your kid's options prematurely!
On another issue, it seems to me that the OP stated the issue in a biased manner. Supposed the choice was between great school/expensive and good school/cheap?</p>

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<p>danas:
I guess sarcasm is not that easy to convey on the message board. :) S already made his choice, and he is as happy as can be in the Honors Program of( o horror :) ) our state Flagship. And somehow he managed to find a wonderful peer group right here in the Pacific Northwest.</p>

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<p>parabella</p>

<p>More than good enough.</p>

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<p>danas: :)
It was not an easy choice to make, but in hindsight it was the RIGHT choice.</p>

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<p>"American intellectuals, by and large, prefer to live in the Northeast and Mid-Atlantic for social and historical reasons".
And so do elitist snobs. Just one of the state u "twits" speaking up here. Even though I'm happy, well read, and successful in my career, I guess I still lack that special edge that would help me find personal, intellectual, artistic, professional and financial happiness.<br>
Good luck to your son parabella. And stay out of the NE.</p>

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<p>toneranger:
thanks, and same to your son. I hope he likes Schreyer, it's a wonderful program many S's middlle school friends attend( we spent 4 very happy years in State College, S is still in touch with his former classmates) . S doesn't rule out NE for grad school, but CA is also a possibility( even if some people consider it an intellectual desert :) ) .</p>

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<p>edad, actually there is one very good study addressing the "value" of the college outcomes in terms of post graduate salaries. The study was by Dale and Kreuger using the Carnegie Mellon longitudinal data base which contained detailed records on more than 10,000 college graduates. The conclusion drawn was that for any particular student, it matters not what college he or she attends, ie there is no value added by attending an "elite" college vs attending a very good state university or private college. They found that a student accepted to Yale but attending Denison would have as much post graduate success vs attending Yale.</p>

<p>Surprise! Success in life depends on the talents, ambitions and determination of the person not the college name on the diploma.</p>

<p>There are very good reasons for attending HYP et. al. But do not count on that to assure more post graduate success.</p>

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<p>Cheers, based on your post #64, it seems that the quality education you received did not help you in seeing the argumentative shortcomings of relying on hackneyed stereotypes.</p>

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<p>Originaloog, I referred to that study without naming it. I have read the original papers and consider the data and conclusions near worthless. The data is also very old. I guess that cannot be helped because it takes a lot of years to collect data to detect any differences in the value of educational rigor. By the way, the oft quoted conclusion is not correct. The publications actually showed differences in outcomes, just not the huge differences that some would like to believe.</p>

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<p>toneranger - Earnest Pascarella and Pat Terenzini are the gurus of college outcomes research. They've spent the past 15 years doing meta-analyses of decades of research into college factors and outcomes, and they've published their findings in a couple of volumes of huge books called How College Affects Students. They're the ones who've found that the peer group is consistently the best predictor of goals and aspirations. As to life-altering impacts, I'd point to my daughter who's a freshman at an elite private university that was a late consideration in her college search process. She went to school this fall with her personal focus on performing arts and a lesser sense of global issues, politics, and concerns. Within the student culture that she's recently entered, there is a strong peer expectation that one will have an informed sense of global citizenship and be able to back up opinions with accurate knowledge and insights. She has attended Institute of Politics forums, joined a Latin American civil rights organization, and caught up with her more worldly peers in a hurry. She's not only developed interests in the new things she's encountering, she's passionate about many of them. And her new friends are from all over the world. When she discusses Israeli-Palestinian issues, she can easily bounce her thoughts off classmates from those backgrounds. I went to a Top 30 university that is ranked close to UNC-CH (our original example) in the college rankings. While I enjoyed it and loved it, nothing close to my daughter's experience ever happened to me in that setting. And incidentally, in my income bracket after financial aid, my daughter's tuition, fees, room and board come to about $1000 more per year than going to one of our public universities in-state.</p>

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<p>Everyone has a different scenario. My son was not admitted into HYP (waitlisted at H and P). He got into Columbia, Chicago and Penn. He also got a full ride at Michigan, and is now attending their honors program. He couldn't be happier. He has friends who got into MIT, Harvard, but are attending Michigan and are happy with the decision. The honors program tries to put students in smaller groups, both in terms of classes and in dorms.</p>

<p>In my son's case, he probably would have chosen HYP had he got admitted there. However, the lower tiered Ivy League universities were not worth the extra financial burden.</p>

<p>I have had a chance to hire fresh chemistry graduates for Fortune 500 companies. To me, how well a student performed in a top 25 university is more important than where they went to school, other things being equal.</p>

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<p>If one feels one can get a great education at their state university, then that is what is important. With few exceptions, it is grad school, not undergrad school that is important. Except for a small minority there is little prestige difference between Michigan, Berkeley, UVA, UNC, and the top 10 schools. </p>

<p>Having said this, as an earlier poster mentioned, I have been comparing the experiences my S is having at his private school with friends at the publics in our area. The experience difference is startling. Though most are quite happy, the intellectual engagement, the requirements, the peer group challenge is not the same, even for those in the flagship honors program.</p>

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<p>Hey, this thread made the front page, and after reading the posts I felt I had to say something.</p>

<p>First, please consider the environment. In the top schools, the people you meet are many times the skill level of your average state school student. You'll be surrounded by people who are smarter than you, which will in turn lift your skill level up. On the otherhand, a top student that stays for long in an area where students may not acheive as highly as that certain student does, may fall down due to lack of peer encouragement and pressure.</p>

<p>It is true that Harvard, Yale, and Princeton have become mainly names these days, but even their weakest programs are at the top of their fields. Though a state school may offer a program at the top of the field, can you guarantee your child will continue to pursue materials engineering if he goes to GeorgiaTech all four years? Many people may argue for specific programs, but with the varying interests that can be pursued in college, it should be whole fields that should be analyzed instead. </p>

<p>The strength of the local state school must also be analyzed. As a Floridian, I have the University of Florida, which is a very good school where I would no doubt have no problem going to. However, my friend who is now going to the University of Miami, a similarly strengthed institutionm, on a full scholarship, always tells me about how his classes are going on so easily. For me, having been accepted to Caltech means that I personally feel as if I MUST go out of state, to a stronger science school where I will be challenged, and if my parents refused to pay, I would happily join the army to pay for it (Or NSA or DoD, which offers a better program). My parents however, have agreed to pay following the EFC on the FAFSA. </p>

<p>I've heard many of the parents extoll UNC over some of the elite schools, due to the fact that it is cheaper. However, I have to ask about the financial aid offered at the elite schools. Those schools usually give out pretty good financial aid, so if your family recieves nothing in aid, or not enough that even out of state UNC (around 25 a year I think including living?) is attractive, I have to ask about where your priorities lie. I understand that every family may be different, but if you're driving around in $60,000 SCs and living in a $2,000,000 mansion, maybe you should reconsider your priorities? (Before I get attacked for this, let me say that you this may be an exxageration, but usually if you're comfortably making six figures you definitely have the money to afford an elite education.) If you're worried about living comfortably in retirement, maybe you can work out a deal with your child where they will pay you back what you have paid for their tuition, or cosign their loans for them. For those truly poor families, an elite acceptance guarantees a full ride to education. For middle income families, the payment may be harder, but it is still usually possible.</p>

<p>However, I recognize that schools like instate Berekely, Michigan, UVa and UNC may prove to be a very promising choice. But for UF and Caltech, I'm definitely going to Cali. The choice between Berekely (instate) and Cali would be very hard indeed however.</p>

<p>Please parents, education is the only thing that pays for itself. It fills you with intrisince value (information). From what I know, the FAFSA EFCs are usually reasonable. Most families should be able to easily afford that, especially with the aid packages from the elite schools, which are rolling with money. If you honestly feel that the tuition money is a hardship, please reexamine your priorities, for I guarantee that you have come to place too much of an emphasis on short term enjoyment and material abundancy.</p>

<p>P.S. By elite, I do not include lower-tiered Ivies, where I believe the the educational difference between that and a flagship state university is not much different. Before getting my EA acceptance, I had informed my parents that I would not be applying to any middle reach schools, only the top, as I believed those schools would offer the most financial aid as well as be worth spending the extra money on. I believe many students in middle income situations should take that route, as an honors program at a flagship state university is competitive against a lower-teired Ivy, though not the elite.</p>