<p>why the limiting distance of 200 miles? like all the other posters have said, a lot of schools further away give good merit aid / financial aid to out of state students as well, since they want to attract people from all over too. Besides, I think going to college in a different location / culture is a pretty cool experience. it might be very bad in the beginning of the transition phase, but if it will save money too then it can be worth it in the end</p>
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<p>Of course it’s not true. The data is clear, and supports your anecdotal evidence: the reputation and ranking of an undergraduate institution makes no difference in the quality of education or the career prospects, with a very narrow range of exceptions in the career area, and leaving aside the religious indoctrination institutions that masquerade as colleges.</p>
<p>Are there a preponderance of high-prestige-college graduates in prestigious graduate programs? Absolutely. That’s because the high-prestige undergraduate programs attract a much higher percentage of high-potential high school seniors than less prestigious schools do. But from the standpoint of an individual student, that’s irrelevant. </p>
<p>I find it disheartening that posters here who are -or at least who claim to be - highly educated people cannot understand that simple concept.</p>
<p>If a student has the potential, and the drive, to get into a high-prestige, funded PhD program, there is no advantage to going to a high-prestige undergrad program. Again, all the anecdotal nonsense spewed about here cannot contradict the voluminous data that supports that statement.</p>
<p>They better go to an undegrad program that prepares them for the grad program and they better work with profs whose recommendations matter. Right now PhD slots are very limited in the humanities. Amazing students aren’t getting accepted. If a dept is accepting two students out of 200 applicants, does the undergraduate school matter? Do you not believe the professors at the high prestige institutions are doing everything in their power to get their students accepted to graduate school? I agree with everything NJSue is writing. Where current tenured professors received their degrees has nothing to do with graduate school admissions today. It is a completely different world.</p>
<p>Current PhD student in a very good English program chiming in in support of NJSue. For the most part, the students in my program come from top colleges. I can think of only one person who comes from a third-tier school, although there are certainly some from “non-elite” undergrad institutions. . I also want to add that, at least as of a few years ago when I was applying, Harvard had an unusually old English faculty, with a number of professors in their 60s and 70s. I’m pretty sure most of them are still there. Where they went as undergrads says next to nothing about the current state of the profession.</p>
<p>The larger issue for me, however, is the notion that there is no reason to go to a better school if you can get to the same place and earn the same money somewhere else. It is certainly possible (although, for several reasons, less likely) that I would have wound up in my current program even if I had gone to an unranked school; certainly, if I wanted to be a high school teacher, where I went undergrad probably wouldn’t have mattered all that much. That doesn’t mean that I didn’t benefit from my education or that I would have been wasting my degree had I pursued another path. As George Eliot wrote, the effects of our actions are “incalculably diffusive.” Who knows how many people the “overeducated” stay at home mom may reach, and what influence her education may have on the choices she makes?</p>
<p>Keep in mind that the OP’s son most likely wants to be a HIGH SCHOOL teacher…</p>
<p>But how much bearing do a high school teacher’s education will have on the quality of his teaching?</p>
<p>Catria–are you suggesting that by going to a state school means he won’t get a good education? I wonder how all the people in the world seem to do JUST FINE without a Harvard degree. By your assumption there are only about 5000 high school kids each year that have any chance of making it in the world, give me a break. Given that the so called “top” schools don’t even have programs for secondary education, I would say that he has a much better chance going to a “lesser” school don’t you think??</p>
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<p>Let’s leave aside the word “prestige” and replace it with “quality.” A high-quality undergraduate program has more “prestige” with graduate admissions committees who make choices about fellowship recipients based on the work they have done and the recommendations of their professors. The differences between the program quality in English at, say, University of the Cumberlands and Kenyon (or St. Olaf, or College of Wooster, or University of Iowa) are gaping. The admissions committees will not ignore this. Your advice in this case is irresponsible. </p>
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<p>And I would not have even bothered to put my two cents in here if the OP had not also mentioned that he was interested in a possible career as a college professor as well. I have no idea what the student is “most likely” to do. How can any of us know that? I am only responding to what the OP said his son’s interests were. Why choose the most limiting option? My advice would be for this student to choose the best program in English that he can afford, and not just choose the cheapest option. If a PhD and a career as a professor is the goal, that course of action is penny-wise and pound-foolish, because he will be damaging his chances of getting a funded PhD slot. This is not about snobbery, prestige, etc., it’s about money.</p>
<p>Can’t speak for Catria, but I do think a “better” education may help a high school teacher. My own father was a high school teacher for 35 years. He had also completed all but the dissertation stage of a PhD program, and he would certainly have said that his students benefited from his range of knowledge and experience. It may not have made them better writers, but it hopefully made them more thoughtful and careful readers of texts than they would have been had they had a teacher who confined himself to talking about themes and alliteration.</p>
<p>Now, I’m not saying that someone needs to go to an elite school or do an advanced degree to get that kind of background. You can get a fantastic education at many places, especially if the “lesser” school is your flagship state university. I do think, however, that a student that goes to a school significantly below his academic profile may not be forced to stretch himself intellectually in the way he would somewhere else. If you are always getting easy As and you are among the best students your professors have seen at the school, you are less likely to get the constructive feedback that will lead even the best students to really grow as writers. On a more basic level, you may not be reading some of the most sophisticated or great long works simply because there aren’t enough students who could or would be willing to tackle them. And once you get to the level of school the OP is talking about, you are really talking about someplace that just may not have the course offerings or faculty quality that you would see not only at Kenyon, but at a place like Ohio State.</p>
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<p>Words of absolute truth.</p>
<p>It seems to me we are frequently talking about different things here. Yes, it is possible for someone to get an excellent education almost anywhere. It is possible for some individuals, with potential and drive, and with internet and library resources to get an excellent education without attending college at all! However, sometimes a credential is necessary for a certain job: high school teacher or fully funded PhD spot in a program where graduates frequently are hired into tenure track jobs.</p>
<p>Again, I agree with absolutely everything NJSue is writing.</p>
<p>I only read the first & last pages of this thread. Apply widely & see what your options are both in financial & acceptance terms, then repost. Explore large state university honors colleges in addition to LACs.</p>
<p>Perhaps the word “prestige” brought out the usual posters who want to fight a prestige war, instead of addressing the OP’s choice.</p>
<p>In this particular case, one of the schools has a good department in the student’s major, but costs more, while the other is a relatively poor academic fit due to limited offerings in the student’s major. If these choices are not satisfactory, then the OP needs to do a wider search for other schools that may be better fits for both academics and cost.</p>
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<p>Of course not.</p>
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<p>Which proves … nothing. Except that so-called “top colleges” admit only students with high potential, which means that those students are most likely to have the interest and the potential to go on to high-prestige graduate programs. </p>
<p>Why is that simple concept so hard to grasp?</p>
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<p>Students who go to less-selective colleges can stretch themselves if they choose to do so. And students who go to the most prestigious colleges in the country can also slide through to a degree without stretching themselves. Read William Deresciewicz on how hard it is to get kicked out of Yale, once you’re in.</p>
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<p>Is academia one of the exceptions? If not, and if the data is so clear, then shouldn’t it be easy to find many good counter-examples to NJSue’s claims on college faculty web pages?</p>
<p>Conditions in the field have changed since, for example, Marjorie Garber at Harvard got her undergraduate degree in the 1960s. You have to look at recent hires. A good measure would be a given college’s placement rate of its students into funded PhD programs in the humanities within the last 10-15 years; don’t just look at current faculty rosters. Or if you do, look only at people who are tenure-track assistant professors.</p>
<p>I also believe that certain posters are misreading me. I specifically said that a flagship state school is a good option for an aspiring academic. I am not a prestige hound or a USNWR snob. I do, however, believe that huge differences in program quality exist among undergraduate institutions. Is it possible for someone from an undistinguished obscure teacher-training or business college to get a funded PhD slot? Sure. It’s also possible to win Powerball. But it’s not likely.</p>
<p>Anyway, I hope this student finds an affordable quality option that will permit him a realistic chance of achieving his goals, whatever they turn out to be.</p>
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<p>Nope - corporate law, Wall Street, some medical schools. That’s it.</p>
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<p><a href=“http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/15045802-post75.html[/url]”>http://talk.collegeconfidential.com/15045802-post75.html</a></p>
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<p>Also consulting (which happens to be the field in which one of my kids works).</p>
<p>As for academia, it’s important for students who aspire to academic careers and therefore to Ph.D.s to have undergraduate research experience. This type of experience may not be available at all undergraduate institutions.</p>