Prestige vs. Opportunity in Music School Choice

College Majors Music Major
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<p>The March Madness will pass (albeit too slowly) and I hope we will all be facing the decision of which school to choose. With auditions done, I have had time to reflect on the classical music business of preparing future musicians. I came into the process as a consumer of classical music, without a musical background. My view of the college application process in general and the advice I gave my children was “don’t get sucked into the hype” for the Ivies, go to a school that fits you and where you will get a good education and lots of attention, and preferably one with enough money to help you pay for it. That being said, I am beginning to strongly suspect that applying this approach to music schools probably means that you won’t get a job in an orchestra at the end of the process.</p>

<p>At the Oberlin auditions, the head of the strings department gave a very interesting discourse on the application process in which two things really stood out. One was that you need a “prestige school” in your resume–Curtis, NEC, CIM, Julliard, Eastman, (and Oberlin), and the second was that the decision of where to go should be a calculation of maximizing the intersection of “opportunity and level”. By this he meant, the level of the students in the school and the opportunities you will have to play. For example, he said, at some schools you may be the best player (ie the level will not be high) but you will have all the opportunities (ie first chair, solos etc), at another the level may be incredibly high but the opportunities are few (all the chairs are filled by graduate students.) It was an interesting way to look at the whole process of deciding where to go to school. (Obviously this was his plug for Oberlin where they are all undergraduates, so there are more opportunities, but the level is extremely high.) While he didn’t say this directly he implied that this calculation should be done without regard to the cost. He did reference the “money game”, and that if you had the stomach for it, you could play schools against each other (this was another eye opener for me...actually hadn’t occurred to me!). However, he said not to bother to bring offers from schools that weren’t at Oberlin’s caliber. While “fine schools” (his words), Oberlin was not going to match these offers. He then gave an example of a kid who started out with $6000 from one prestige school and ended up with $27000 from both that one and Oberlin.</p>

<p>But it was his first comment about “prestige school” in your resume that got me doing some research. I went on the websites of 5 full-time mid-tier orchestras below the level of a NY Philharmonic level, but still quite good.. I looked up the string players in the viola section and tabulated the institutions attended. There were 12 players who attended non-prestige schools for undergraduate...of those 8 then attended a prestige school for graduate. Of the four who did not, they were older (eg joined the orchestra 30 years ago). The schools which predominated were Curtis, Julliard, CIM , Oberlin and Eastman. Then there was a scattering from Manhattan, NEC, Northwestern, CCM and Indiana. So from this I posit the theory that there is a strong positive correlation between future earnings as an orchestra member and where you went to school (and probably how much it cost you to get that education!) So if your kid is deciding between CIM with no financial assistance and OSU with a full ride, the numbers say go to CIM. That does not mean that he/she wouldn’t get a good education at OSU, but unless that teacher at OSU has a good reputation for getting their students into prestige schools, that education will not result in an orchestra job.</p>

<p>There was a whole thread about future job prospects for musicians, and what kind of jobs they can expect and how competitive the whole affair is, I do not mean to replay that here. My point is, that if a kid has the goal of becoming an orchestra musician and they do not go to a prestige school then the odds are stacked against them from the onset. I think they should know this on the front end and not be blind sided by it later when they start applying for jobs and can’t even get an audition because they do not have the right names on their pedigree. (This also raises the question in my mind of whether orchestra employment is entirely talent/skill based, or perhaps there is just a tad of “old boy” networking to it. How would an extremely talented player with a no name degree ever get an audition? )</p>

<p>And what if your 18 year old child isn’t good enough to get into one of the prestige schools? To get into one of these schools requires a child who has been serious about their instrument for several years and has known that music school was their goal probably when they entered high school and has time to polish their repertoire, enter competitions, visit schools etc. But what about the late bloomer? I think the best way to look at this whole process and go about making a decision is that becoming a musician is an apprenticeship. If you do not yet have the skills to enter the rarified world of the prestige schools (and summer music festivals), but believe you have the talent and ability to work hard to acquire those skills, then you need to find a teacher who can help you do that at a non-prestige school. A teacher who also has the prestige credentials, and the connections to get you into graduate school once you do have the necessary skills.</p>

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<p>No matter what metier you choose, you should research the hiring practices and the positions available within that metier and gauge your chances as well as your choices. Music is no different. And, of course,even a prestige school carries no guarantee.</p>

<p>This is from someone whose grad degree is in Art History.
(ok everyone, you can stop laughing now)</p>

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<p>What a thoughtful post! Your research validates my impressions at least as far as performance goes. Composition is a bit different in the sense that there are many exceptional composition programs in schools whose overall music program is not quite as strong, or these composition programs exist only at the graduate level. But I believe it is helpful for the composition major to go to a school that has a prestige performance program so that there exist the talent to play the comp. major’s works at as high a level as possible. Some schools with prestige composition departments but not undergraduate performance at the same level compensate for this by having a graduate level ensemble available.</p>

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<p>Cookerdee, your last paragraph is very interesting. A year ago I was certain I was going to go to the Naval Academy and then at the very end of my junior year I decided to go into music, not having taken piano very seriously before that. I ended up being able to have at least two options, hopefully three when all’s said and done. Nevertheless, my lack of experience put Eastman type places out of contention immediately simply because of the amount of repetoire required to audition at those schools, which is especially lengthy for piano. I can handle that level of playing but I’ve never played a whole sonata, prelude & fugue, romantic piece, twentieth century work and an etude all at the same time. (And for some of those schools the requirements are even greater!) So to anyone even remotely thinking about music or with the ability to be a musician, I advise you take it seriously!</p>

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<p>*Eastman type places as in the schools mentioned above, with the exception of CCM, CIM, and Northwestern, all schools I was able to put together enough repetoire for.</p>

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<p>cookerdee, I think we must have been in the same session with Peter Slowik! That was an eye-opening presentation. As an aside, he mentioned that Oberlin was searching for a second viola prof. Have you heard any more about that?</p>

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<p>cookerdee, were you able to find out, in the last few years or so, how many Oberlin viola grads got mid-tier orchestra jobs (please provide denominator if possible?) </p>

<p>Regarding how would a late bloomer even get an audition: recently there were auditions for a bassoonist in the Cleveland Orchestra. They selected a certain number for live audition based on resume, then invited anyone else to send in a recording. I liked that they gave that opportunity.</p>

<p>Regarding symphony jobs: There are way too few of them. This has come up on other threads. We are encouraging our daughter to diversify her skill set, network with as many people as possible, and think outside the box to forge her own path. Maybe I’m crazy but I do believe there is money to be made in music, and most of it won’t be done wearing black.</p>

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<p>Cookerdee, Will have to respond from a trombone point of view and agree that it improves your chances for a job to have a “prestige school” on your resume for an orchestra job but feel that it can be either at the Bachelor’s or Master’s level. For the BM a great teacher at a smaller school can prepare you just as well for a Master’s audition at a “prestige” location . The Trombone Forum, for example, keeps a spreadsheet of where and with who every trombone player currently in a major orchestra studied. Certain schools/teachers dominate but there are a good number of players that studied at smaller schools. I am sure there are similar lists for other instruments. I would say focus on getting the right teacher at the BM level and not trying to get into a “prestige school.” If you get both that’s fine but it is not the end of the world if it does not happen as I discovered with my S.</p>

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<p>This is an important thread. It would behoove all aspiring musicians to be able to read a list of where musicians in top tier and mid-tier orchestras went to undergrad and masters, and when they got their job. It may be that it differs greatly depending upon the instrument. While it may not make a great deal of difference on trombone, for example, it does make a great deal of difference on my daughter’s instrument. Students not only get to put their prestige conservatory on their resume, but they are trained to sound a particular way which is immediately detected by the audition committee, blind audition or not.</p>

<p>I recall that several decades ago while I was attending my Big State University, the other flute players seemed to be totally unaware that their flute studies there would not lead them into a big orchestra job. While I was just taking lessons and playing in the wind ensemble while working on my academic degree in another field, these other students were performance majors and no one had ever told them the facts.</p>

<p>While some students would be happy to become music educators or work in a music-related field, others would not. They would choose a different emphasis or another field entirely.</p>

<p>As CLRN8mom said, even going to Prestige University #1 will not guarentee you that job. But it will allow you to compete. And you should always have a backup. I too believe there is money to be made in music.</p>

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<p>musicamusica–absolutely agree that admission to a prestige school does not guarantee a job, the competition is still fierce, but not near to impossible if from a non-prestige school.</p>

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<p>CompDad–I was only looking at string player background. Different disciplines and instruments probably have their own list of prestige schools. However, I am assuming that the same conclusion would hold for others too.</p>

<p>Pianoman12–good luck with your applications. It is very hard when you come to the “music path” late. I take comfort reading stories (albeit rare) of famous musicians who came late to their calling (unfortunately late is often described as 12 years old). It seems like in this situation finding a good teacher is paramount, especially one who has a good placement rate at the prestige graduate schools. (See what NJJazzDad said about this.) And focus on graduate school for your prestige ticket.</p>

<p>CLRN8Mom–it is a very interesting question to ask every music school. "Where have your graduates gone? " I actually did this at every information session I attended. It was very illuminating. Only one school could answer it, breaking it down into percentages that went to graduate school, those working in the field, and “other”. The rest of the schools pretty much admitted that they didn’t have that data!! which is pretty interesting in itself. (Being somewhat of a cynic, I thought perhaps they knew and it wasn’t very good.) I totally agree with you about the future of musical employment requiring creativity and looking outside the (black) box. </p>

<p>NJ Jazz Dad–I haven’t been able to find for strings anything like the database you describe for trombone. Does anybody know of such a database?? My sample size was admittedly very small (5), but it would be an interesting project to undertake. I completely agree with you on the importance of finding a teacher who can impart the skills you need, as well as has the connections and knowledge to help the student get into a good graduate program.</p>

<p>I find the question of having a back up plan to be confusing. I started out solidly in this camp, researching schools that allowed/encouraged double majors etc. And surprisingly enough I did find some orchestra players who had not majored in Music at the undergraduate level (but then gone to prestige music graduate school.) But when I spoke with double majors at these schools they ALL said the same thing, they felt that each discipline had been shortchanged because of the demands made by the second major (that and the lack of sleep). My opinion now is that IF a music career is your goal, you have to give it your all, but if it looks like you will not get into a prestige graduate school or you realize that your talent is not there, then time to reassess. A BM is still a good degree that opens up lots of jobs and non-music graduate programs. And the breadth requirements at universities are an opportunity to create a platform for a back-up without sacrificing commitment to a career. (I am urging my D to consider Marketing. )</p>

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<p>From what I’ve seen the prestige of a school has a stronger impact on instrumentalists than vocalists. Instrumentalists at the most prestigious schools like Curtis, Rice or Juilliard tend to be pushed harder. Even if your child is immensely talented and with a great teacher, if it’s at a not so prestigious program most of the time they will never make it to their full potential simply because they are not driven by their peers. Obviously there are exceptions to this but it’s not as many as you might think.</p>

<p>I went to two very prestigious schools for my undergrad and grad and let me tell you that those names have in NO WAY gotten me jobs. However, being in that ultra-driven environment HAS. Just my personal experience.</p>

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<p>Isn’t it possible the reason so many orchestra performers come from “prestige” schools is that those schools tend to draw the best musicians in the first place? And given the level of teaching and peer competition, wouldn’t those schools naturally also produce many of the top performers and auditioners? This is far out of my expertise (jazz and rock here), but I’m sure it’s not the school name on the resume that gets one hired; it’s the audition, and the audition is a result of everything that led up to it.</p>

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<p>cookerdee,
Were the orchestras you studied all located in eastern states?</p>

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<p>Georgia Girl. Nope. I tried to make them geographically diverse.</p>

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<p>jazz/shreddermom, that’s where I’ve been going with this also. Chickens and eggs, as it were. I’ve always been told that it’s how you perform in the [usually blind] audition that matters.</p>

<p>OTOH, it is also true that teachers invited to summer programs will often bring significant numbers of their home studios along, e.g. Aspen, which then would make it more difficult for outsiders to (1) be accepted and (2) network with other people from prestigious schools while there.</p>

<p>I also think the music world has changed dramatically from 20-30 years ago, and a number of people who came up in that era haven’t realized that.</p>

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<p>Good question, Are the overly prestige schools represented because they are just that much better? Maybe. I just did my little research project to see if it was true that a “name” school was important to have on one’s musical resume, like the Oberlin teacher indicated. It does raise the question of why it is important. As you suggest, perhaps incoming talent is just so much higher? Greater competition? Better teaching? An argument could probably be made for lots of reasons.</p>

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<p>I think that jazzshreddermom put it correctly, that the top prestige schools draw in the best players, and then continue to train and push them more than other schools, as another poster said, because of the very high peer level. So those schools produce the best players. Since there are very few jobs, even fewer than 20 years ago, the top orchestras tend to hire students from those prestige schools.</p>

<p>The OP wondered about the backup plan. I don’t think that a double major is the best way to go. I mean a Plan B if the Plan A doesn’t work. Plan B can be music. Some students are performers and composers. In my daughter’s case, she is working on Plan B right now in high school. She’s learned all the woodwinds and is doing pit orchestra work.</p>

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<p>I think the answer to that one should be asking another question, why are kids from prestige schools getting orchestra jobs? And I think the answer is like everything else in music, nuanced.</p>

<p>-As others have pointed out, the top music schools, the Juilliard’s, NEC’s, etc, because of their name in part, attract the top students. Whether it is the best music school or not is moot, for example, but Juilliard draws students from all over the world because it is a known name, it has spread literally all over the world, and the same for some of the other schools. As a result, the competition to get in is fierce (Juilliard’s acceptance rate is 6% or thereabout), these schools are picking among the creme de la creme, and when they get accepted large percentage of the students go there (in a parent’s presentation, Juilliard’s admissions people said it is roughly 90 some odd percent of students accepted enroll).
As a result, they are getting very, very high level students across the board, and that drives the kids forward as much or more then the teaching does, in a pool with other very talented kids it tends to drive them forward.</p>

<p>-The other aspect others have sort of touched on is what is on the musical cv that many orchestras use in choosing people to audition (personally, I think orchestras would be better off using pre-screening recordings along with the resume, but many do not). Kids that go to premiere music schools tend to have a lot on their CV, many of them have done high level pre college programs, they have done major youth orchestras, summer programs, etc, and once in college many of them are doing a lot more then the school orchestra and chamber. Kids at Curtis, for example, often get sub gigs with the Philadelphia Orchestra and other performing groups, do gigs, chamber, etc outside the school, same thing at Juilliard and prob other programs. That is going to stand out on a cv, as things like internships stand out on job resumes coming out of college.</p>

<p>This experience is not just lines on a resume, it also can mean success on an audition. Think about this one, the Philadelphia Orchestra has been accused of too close ties to Curtis, that they are biased in that regards, there must be skullduggery, etc. Yet if you think about it, students at Curtis often fill in at the PO, so they learn what the orhcestra is looking for and potentially what other professional orchestras are looking for. </p>

<p>-One thing to consider in terms of undergraduate, is these days unlike past generations many musicians are getting masters level degrees or post grad education of other sorts, it is almost de rigeur these days to do so. If so, then going to Julliard et al as an UG might not matter as much; if you can go to a decent music school UG, then get into a premiere program on a masters level, could work out to be a better deal. 30 years ago my son’s prior music teacher got out of Oberlin and literally right into a seat on a pretty high level orchestra, those days are long gone (frankly, I wonder if with their skills getting out of college back then, they would have gotten into a major music school today). </p>

<p>-Another thing to consider might be networking. According to what I have read,the screening committee that decides whom to audition doesn’t see names on the resumes they screen from (for obvious reasons, to screen out bias based on racial or ethnic identifiers on a resume or male/female). That doesn’t mean in theory that someone with contacts in an orchestra from a music school might not send a resume and say “put this in the pile of cv’s you want to look at” or perhaps even get them an audition without going through screening (warning, that is strictly hypothetical, I don’t know of that happening). </p>

<p>-Having a name school on a resume might help if you want to teach, but that is another issue.</p>

<p>-Something else to think about is given the relative lack of orchestra jobs at an anywhere high level (that actually pay someone decent, etc), what is a working musician likely to do these days? Orchestra jobs are often seen as ‘working in music’ because at least some of them provide tenure and a regular paycheck and maybe benefits, which is not true elsewhere.</p>

<p>Still, given the state of orchestras (and that players in them stay there for many decades once they make it), I think targeting orchestra jobs is kind of like targeting a job at a specific company when going to college, it is putting all your hopes in one basket. Most working musicians are not soloists or members of well paying orchestras…and if so, then do you need to come from an elite school…that takes looking at what musicians actually do (as far as I can project it,not being a musician)…</p>

<p>-Chamber music. Chamber music groups generally happen by networking; it can be by students at a particular school, or they meet through music festivals and such. Musicians get to know one another, and then when openings happen and such they think of people they know. Obviously, given the talent pool at the top schools, it could be that they are more likely to choose kids they knew from school, but that also diminishes over time, as they grow as musicians.</p>

<p>-Gig jobs/substitute jobs…these again happen by networking, and who you know and such, prob a lot more then where you went to school. Like with the mystique about going to an HYP level of school academically, the influence of where you went to school for the most part wanes and it becomes what you have done and can do, on contacts and impressing people, rather then that you went to a top school</p>

<p>-Pit orchestras and such…again, usually networking, people get substitute jobs, then can be asked to be in them. </p>

<p>To be honest, a lot of this is speculation, because we don’t know if screening committees only look at kids from Curtis, Juilliard et al, and I tend to think it is more that because of the caliber of student these schools attract, and the kind of experience these students have both before and then when in the program, both in and out of formal training, that when it comes to fill the relatively small number of spots (for each open slot, they generally get about 150 resumes, and audition between 75-100), their experience wins out.
In other words, it isn’t so much the school, as the kids that go into those schools and what they do, and those kids if they have a choice will choose to pay to go to Juilliard, NEC, etc rather then a full ride at another, less prestigious program. One thing also to keep in mind, that probably for every Juilliard, NEC, etc etc student, who gets an orchestra job, there probably were 60 or so in that audition from the same schools who didn’t make it…</p>

<p>The only way to really test this would be to give me examples of students with roughly the same backgrounds, who before college went to the major summer festivals, did serious youth orchestra work or pre college work, etc, where some went to ‘top’ programs, others went to ‘the next level’ and see what happens. </p>

<p>My take? If your goal is to make it in music, specifically if you want to get into a high level orchestra, that you need to not only be a top notch player but also have a lot of training in playing in ensembles at a high level and know what audition panels are looking for, doing their homework, etc.Personally, I don’t think it is that heavily weighed towards having a name school on the resume, I think it reflects more that in the auditions the kids from those programs in general were better prepared going into music school and then had enough background to ace the auditions. 30 years ago you could do what one of my son’s teachers did, have music as a hobby in high school in effect, then ‘get serious’, go to music school, and then get an orchestra job…With an orchestra job or any other relatively major music job, the one thing I can say is that the level is incredibly high, getting higher as is the competition, and being realistic about your music goals and what it takes to get there is a must. If you are shooting for a major level orchestra position or some kind of music job that is up there,in chamber, then having high level skills all around is the key and it is likely that the level set by the best students at the top schools will be the level required, you can be pretty sure about it.</p>

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<p>musicprnt makes great sense, as usual. The comment about the Curtis/Philadelphia Orchestra tie got me thinking about the relationship between conservatories and orchestras, in particular the Cleveland Orchestra and CIM. It is not at all unusual to see one of the top instrumental students from the school filling a CO chair that is vacant due for one reason or another. They will sit in during the summer at the Blossom Festival or even go on tour if needed. They land these plum gigs because their studio teachers are at CIM and thus, their abilities are known. Those kids also get seats in regional orchestras while still in school, often as first chair in their sections. Those things look great on a resume and it’s impossible to overstate the importance of such connections- another perk that comes with a “name” school and that might be available to the top students with the drive to succeed and the ability to manage their school schedules with ensemble performing.</p>