<p>It says that average SATs range from 1370-1590. How the heck do 25% of the people with lower than 1370 get in? Yeah, I understand that tests are not omnipotent, but even a slightly academically gifted person can get a 1400, right? I dunno, maybe I'm overlooking something huge.</p>
<p>This year the 25th percentile at Princeton was supposed to be a little above 1400. In any case, though, all of the schools in Princeton's range (Yale, Harvard, Stanford) have about 25% of their students in this sub-1400 range. </p>
<p>The explanation is that not all smart kids have amazing SATs, and some students are admitted for accomplishments outside of academics. Consider, for instance, the math olympians who want to come to princeton. The SAT (or ACT) is a requirement for admission to the school. Of course, the math won't be a problem, but the verbal may be, especially if the student is an immigrant. So, the student could be a math genius with a 500-600 in verbal. Another group of students represented in this sub-25th percentile population is recruited athletes. While there are many athletes with 1600s and 1590s, if the school really wants them, they will accept athletes with low scores. A third group of people who fall into this category are people who have special circumstances (they might be of an underrepresented ethnicity, a really tough background that didn't allow much time to worry about the SAT, etc.) The last group of people who could potentially fall in this range are those with significant accomplishment: the internationally recognized violinist, the math prodigy, etc. If princeton wanted to, it could easily fill its entire class with >1550 SAT students (25% of its applicants had above a 1560, and it could easily select from the upper half of those scores), but then you'd have a campus dominated by one type of person. Instead, all of these top-tier schools look at the application as a whole, and don't measure the quality of the applicant solely by his SAT score. And in any case, even if one of these extraordinarily accomplished people only has a 1300 SAT (which is pretty much at the very bottom of the SAT barrel at any of these schools), that's still pretty good (it places them at the national 90th percentile).</p>
<p>i'm a math olympian, from out of the us, and got a 1530. and got in...
a good friends, with just as many medals :D , had a 1420 and did not get in... <-- not that it's all up to scores, but this was a major drawback for him, so.... also some other guys from our school, without the major medals at the imo and stuff got in, and they were much more well-rounded...</p>
<p>but i do agree with you christopher. i just wanted to share my sad and "random-admission theory" approving experience</p>
<p>
[quote]
even a slightly academically gifted person can get a 1400, right?
[/quote]
</p>
<p>my friend is one of the most brilliant students i've seen.... he got 1290... (680/610 i think). and he's a damn good writer... but got 590 writing.</p>
<p>:-/</p>
<p>I dont understand how being an underrepresented ethnicity constitutes an exception/special allowances beign made in terms of certain criteria such as sat or gpa that wouldnt otherwise be made for others unless what came with being said underrepresented ethnicity were difficulties and adversity that would have led to less of an opportunity to realize one's potential which - having many many many friends of an underrepresented ethnicity - is not automatically or even frequently the case at least not more so than your caucasian student. i just dont think that it is particularly fair to assume that being an underrepresented ethnicity means that your personal school /life experience was any more devoid of opportunity or advantage than that of a caucasian. i understand socieoeconomic allowances - to an extent - because at least there's a direct provable effect on one's education ie having to work to support the family, not having the money for a good school or private school education if in a bad school district, not havint the money for the sat prep course or tutor or anything of that sort, not having a car in the family to be able to do after school activities or after school help , etc etc. This is somethign that has perturbed me for some time but moreso now since the way the admissions chips have fallen with my friends. I am the only white student to get in an ivy, which i suppose wouldnt disturb me if it wasnt that friends of mine who are amazing were rejected by schools like brown and princeton over other friends of mine who were incidentally of an underrepresented ethnicity - the only possible/plausible reason for their acceptance for the caucasian students who applied to the schools had notably better test scores, gpa, and extracurriculars. there was absolutely nothing else to make the accepted students more appealing candidates other than their ethnicity - a quality not of their own personal merit or earning. i cannot help but think less of highly esteemed instititions who would turn away more qualified students on the basis of race/ethncity for that was the very problem that spurred affirmative action to start with. </p>
<p><em>note: i'm sorry for venting per se, it's just that i just today found out about a blatant race based ivy acceptance and it unnerved me greatly and then i saw the post about lower sats and who falls into those categories and yeah...let me just say in case of misinterpretation , i love people of all races/creeds/etc. i could care less. because that's not what counts, it's who you are deep within which for the most part is independent of the color of your skin likewise i believe college admissions should be based more on what each student did with what they had , how they excelled /stood out as a result of their own effort that stems from some amazing drive/intellect/potential within likewise independent of skin color. okay i'm goign to shut up now</em></p>
<p>This topic comes up entirely too often, and I'm tired of making the same arguments I do about people treading too closely to the hey-URMs-get-in-just-because-of-their-ethnicity message...so i won't ;) We've already had this topic come up more than once on this specific board.</p>
<p>However, in reference to the OP's concern (or whatever it is), test scores really are not everything. People would learn so much more from the whole process of college admissions if they stopped thinking it's so number-driven. As I recall, there's a rather significant part of non-numerical items that make up the application, which have just as much potential to weigh one applicant over another as anything else...</p>
<p>right i understand about the non numerical, which is why i mentioned extracurriculars, and i suppose i ought to add that in one of the acceptance cases i read the recommendation letters for both studetns (the minority and non minority) and the non minority student's recs were better from the standpoint of superlatives/praise of student's ability and persona, thus strengthening the stance for a purely ethncity related acceptance decision. i do know the specifics of each applicants background and intangible factors in addition to numbers for i wouldnt dare to comment generally on this topic esp since a number of ppl i know on here are indeed are deemed URMs and i would not want to any way discredit their work or acceptances. furthermore i didnt intend to come in with some off in right field general spewing post; i am trying to be objective as possible but i realize regardless of how objective i am/attempt to be or any case i make i still wont effect any sort of change of the college admissionsn process thru this message board, so yeah it's pointless for me to comment further. it was a bit reactionary (word? w/e) of me that i even said anythign in the first . I just have a far too heightened sense of injustice which manifests in many regards and as you get to know me better you'll learn that, endearing or not lol. my battles with front office/administration bureacracy has been forever ongoing for example. it's awful. i think i'll become a politician or something to try to put that to good use.</p>
<p>An alum told me that an admissions officer told him (i.e. slightly qualified information --> pinch of salt) that actually, scores literally only get you so far. There's a certain cut-off point which isn't particularly high (1400ish?) where above the cut-offpoint, officers take it for granted you're academically able, and below the cut-off point, you'll need to have some redeeming qualities. After that however, they toss out your scores and go on to review the rest of your application; 1400, 1500, 1550 --> all the same.</p>
<p>According to this alum, there is an exception to this case and that is if you score above 1570. In that case, given at least some distinguishing ECs, your scores will have given you a significant boost. If everything else looks good and you have the grades/maths competition scores etc to corroborate what appears to be distinctive academic excellence (compare to 'academically able') then it is possible you will be admitted on academic merit alone. However, as you can see, this hardly means 1570+ = admission; you'll have to have distinguished yourself in many other ways too, just, perhaps not as much as other people might have to.</p>
<p>pavalon. how do you do it?</p>
<p>being an math elite and a verbal nerd at the same time!</p>
<p>but again even though math seems completely irrelevant to verbal, it greatly helped me to make some logical good guesses in the CR section. Grammar and vocabs pulling me back.</p>
<p>Gabriel Caroll, the IMO full marker had a perfect SAT. and he received 1400's in 7th grade. These facts just excite me. Some people just show some sheer brilliance.</p>
<p>In any case, I don't think I'll get in. Oh well.</p>
<p>"According to this alum, there is an exception to this case and that is if you score above 1570."</p>
<p>Is this just an arbitarily determined cutoff? Any justification for setting it at this particular number?</p>
<p>student - I'm just the messenger...I don't actually know. But 1570 was the particular number the alum quoted. Evidently a 1570 is equal to a 1600, give or take different test editions and whatnot. Perhaps they go by percentiles...?</p>
<p>The bigger picture is not to stress over the SATs. Don't retake it for a few more points. SATs will rarely make or break you without corroboration from other aspects of your app.</p>
<p>asiaknight - trust me, you never, ever know. If you like the uni, definitely apply. What's a couple of dollars compared to never finding out what could have been : )?</p>
<p>Yeah I'm not doing too great with my SATs, I'm a junior and so far I've been making like 1300s due to a really weak math spot. I practically score perfect on verbal/writing but my math SUCKS! I think I'm gonna take a prep course but needless to say I've been stressing out sooo incredibly much. Not fun.</p>
<p>Yeah, but I'm not exactly super-amazing. I've never discovered new strains of bacteria, I don't have perfects across the board, I'm not that good of a writer, my social skills lack in some respects, and I'm asian; yeah, I bust my butt at everything I do, but so do most other people. All I have is a strong passion for math, but I can't even seem to qualify for the USAMOs. Most of the advice I've gotten was to "be [myself]," but i dunno... I absolutely love this school, but I doubt the feeling will be mutual. I'm applying to this mathcamp this summer to (fingers-crossed) have a discussion, maybe????? even do some studies with John Conway. It's my last hope. I guess I've no choice but to wing it.</p>
<p>I still have a little trouble believing that the types of people mentioned would constitute 25% of the freshman class. I think I'm just a little jealous.</p>
<p>I remember an interesting comment from one of the Princeton admissions people a few years back. Something to the effect of: "We're not trying to fill our freshman class with perfectly well-rounded students. We're looking to create a well-rounded student body." Princeton could easily fill the class with 1500+ (or 2250+ on the new SAT) students, but they're looking for more than that.</p>
<p>But scores do help a lot. So does being an alumni kid. But even at the top level, with students with great test scores and scads of impressive activities, it's a bit of a crap shoot. Luck does come into play because Princeton just doesn't have that many spots available. I feel lucky to have gotten in 20 years ago when the competition wasn't quite so steep.</p>
<p>Personally, I hope you all get in!</p>
<p>asiaknight --
"I can't even seem to qualify for the USAMOs..."
OK clearly you're just putting too much pressure on yourself about this princeton biz.</p>
<p>For a start, any princeton admittee will tell you that getting into princeton stop sbeing a goal the second you attain it. It's from then on a start, and you realize that fit is more important than the "i'm going to a name brand school" feeling will ever be. You see those people on the boards right now agonizing and agonizing over US News ranked no.1 vs no.3? They're worried about fit, because suddenly you realize the whole prestige/name business is worth the same as Hicktown Community College ... it's exactly what you make of it; princeton will guarantee you nothing more than your nearest state U will if it's not your fit.</p>
<p>Secondly, you don't need to be superhuman to get in. You need to be impossibly superhuman to be sure of getting in, but you and I and the rest of CC are unfortunately mere mortals. Passion is just as important as doing well; you don't qualify for USAMO? Fine, you tried your best....if your passion for math is what you live for, start a math club with tons of members in it and become president of it, teach math as community service, take college courses in it. Being dejected about yourself and second-guessing/molding yourself into doing something for a college is destined for disaster because a) nobody knows what these crazy colleges want anymore b) you'll hate hs life, you won't have real passions to bring to your college community --> you'll basically have wasted your time.</p>
<p>Thirdly, there are so many 'normal' kids who got accepted by multiple ivies/top schools from my grade this year. I assure you they're very normal -- some of them are idiots. For some reason the admissions officers saw something special in them. What will they find that's special in you? Don't make yourself so college-oriented. You just apply, let them figure out what they like about you.</p>
<p>: /. This is silly .... I was exactly fussing like you are this time last year. or even two years ago. If you were me and I were you, nothing you could have told me would have stopped me worrying. Keep up your hope and good luck then. PM me if you want advice anytime.</p>
<p>(it's 1:30 am here so that post is incoherent. sorry, heh)</p>