Respect and care of animals is a liberal issue? Don’t tell that to my deeply conservative and religious in-laws who rescue and foster animals, or the numerous conservatives on CC and off who love and care for animals. Same deeply conservative father-in-law is the executive director of a respite center for special needs adults and children.
I won’t even go through the rest of your ridiculous list.
One student. If this were common, you would’ve heard about many more such students. And btw was this an unhooked applicant? URM status is a hook.
If you are an unhooked applicant from an upper middle class suburban school district, elite colleges won’t even consider your application unless you’ve taken the most rigorous course load at your high school. That means if your school offers IB, you’d better be doing the IB Diploma or forget it. If only AP is offered, you’d better be taking AP classes since as early as they are offered. Exceptions are only made for those “underprivileged” applicants who came from schools with limited AP offerings.
As for blossom’s assertion that many of those 14 AP kids end up at the state U, I’m sure they do, that doesn’t mean that those who did get in didn’t also do 14 APs.
CMS- your list is hysterical. My staunchly Republican child had an arms length of Republican-type candidates, elected officials, and causes for whom he’d worked (paid and volunteered). (And senior citizen centers are filled with elderly Republicans, by the way, and volunteering to drive them to the polls and coordinating voter registration for those who relocated and are no longer registered is a wonderful thing to do).
I won’t even touch your issues with Special Needs children. If you have documentation that there is a higher incidence of Downs syndrome/“special needs” among liberals we’d all love to know about it. Be sure to include Sarah Palin on your email list.
I am the sole liberal in a household of conservatives/republicans/libertarians. They all believe that volunteering (especially in those soup kitchens or among the poor) is the most conservative/libertarian thing a citizen can do. Keep the government out- let people and organizations who can do it better/cheaper/with less bureaucracy in.
You think that feeding someone who is hungry is a liberal issue?
I think there are literally millions of options b/w “relaxing” through HS and going crazy to try and achieve admission to an elite U. Each child needs to find their own place on that spectrum. However, as Miami said, it always pays to do your best. Every kid has a different “best”- some make it into HYP by doing their best and some make it into an obscure LAC that nobody’s heard of which accepts close to 100% of applicants. It doesn’t really matter at the end of the day b/c the mantra of “doing your best” is a life lesson that you can carry into relationships, work, parenthood and life in general. Cramming for 10 APs allows you to just cram for 10 APs.
We always stressed to our oldest son to do his best, that’s all we wanted from him. Sometimes he did, sometimes he didn’t (lots of blown off homework). He happened to be naturally bright, and turned out to be a talented musician through a lot of hours of work (it is his passion). That work ended up serving him well in the college search, where he could eloquently write about his experiences and demonstrate commitment to a craft. He was not aiming for top-10 schools, but he got into all of his schools ranked 30-80, and received merit scholarships at every single one.
The only pressure we ever put on him was to do his best at whatever he tried. Sometimes, like in Math, his best wasn’t getting A’s. But largely, he put in the time and hours and got what he got.
Back to the OP’s comments, we could do full pay with some non-fatal sacrifices. I didn’t necessarily want to, but was willing to if there was a good situation for my S. There was only one school (his reach where he was denied admission) where I would have done this due to the program and experience he would have had in his field. His merit at the other schools take the edge off but they were all in the 15-30% range of tuition, so I will still be paying a lot. However, I am happy to do so in order to place him in a situation where he can learn and be successful. We planned for this and have saved a bunch of money, knowing from his birth that it would be a ~$250K full pay. As for the OP’s original question, I’ll let you know in 4 yrs whether it’s worth it, as it would be impossible to assess today. I sure as hell hope it is…
You know who the liberals are on this forum. They’re the ones foaming at the mouth at my volunteer list. 
On the surface, all these activities are good, selfless, helping others, making a better society yada yada. I’m just questioning the sincerity of those involved. How many high school/college kids would voluntarily get involved if they can’t include or discuss these activities on their college/med school applications?
And wouldn’t their time be better used working on activities that truly interest them like reading the Great Books, solving difficult math/science problems, building a car engine, thinking/creating if that’s what they’re into? Creative people need time to think. All this running around from one activity to another, not just volunteering but also sports, then homework, gives our kids no time to think and create.
That could be the one exception. Liking animals is pretty universal, especially among those who aspire to be vets.
It seems like there is more than one conversation going on here…
I’ll stick with the academics discussion. True confession-neither of my children are perfect. Both managed to do well in many of their high school pursuits and have found schools for undergraduate education where I am hopeful they will be able to attain some of their goals and continue to learn and grow. I do not think a parent has very much control over how hard your kid works in high school or college anyway. It is up to them. So step back and let your child define their own interests, and with a little grit and determination, they will be where they should be when it is time to complete college applications.
Not foaming, just wondering: why is underprivileged in quotation marks?
And you do know that adcoms are not fooled by mission trips/service opportunities in Guatemala, Costa Rica, or Africa, right? That’s so yesterday (and also pretty transparent).
When I was a girl scout leader, one of my girls was genuinely, passionately, sincerely interested in all kinds of service. She didn’t do it because she wanted to apply to Top 30 schools (she actually wound up at a directional state U) - she was just that kind of kid. Just because you don’t know this kind of teenager doesn’t mean they don’t exist.
Because “underprivileged” is another code word for black/Hispanic, just like “diversity” or “minority”. There is no such thing as an underprivileged white or even Asian kid as far as adcoms are concerned.
Perhaps, as the OP’s daughter gets older, he can encourage her to do well in school and other activities but remind her that because the family finances preclude attending ultra-selective colleges, she has a little more freedom than some other kids do in her choices of courses and activities.
My son aspired to go to our state university (and got in and attended and liked it very much). In high school, he made some choices that were perfectly OK for a student in his situation but might not be for one who aspires to the ultra-elites. He didn’t apply to our county’s selective high school magnet programs even though he was invited to do so, dropped his foreign language after level 3 to make room for more computer science courses in his schedule, took regular rather than honors chemistry and physics to avoid the time-consuming projects in the honors courses, ditched his ECs in favor of paid (unchallenging) work for most of high school because he wanted more spending money, and only took 4 APs (which is low in comparison with what’s typical in our school system). Basically, he did exactly what he wanted to do, which was maximizing the time he had available to mess around with computers and maximizing the money he had to buy more hardware and software.
His sister, who did aspire to elite colleges, faced many more constraints on her choices.
I would certainly encourage a good student to take the highest classes that they can in areas that interest them and they can succeed in–not to get into a top 20 college, but to be among other top students in their high school and to have the best teachers and the best learning environment possible. I would also encourage all students to get involved in EC’s and community service–to find and stick with interests that will help them grow and learn. And if they can eventually take leadership positions, or start a new club or organization, even better!
Ultimately that is what colleges are looking for. If your child does that in the next 4 or 5 years, they will keep open all options for college. I would not close doors by saying–why bother taking an AP class or a higher level math class if it is not beyond their reach. Who knows what will be when your child applies to college?
In the span of 4 years between when my youngest and oldest applied to college, the ivies expanded the level of support to upper middle class families a great deal. It might not help you, but it did make it so that a family with an income of $180K may only need to pay $18K a year for Harvard, whereas in the past they would have been full pay. In the same period of time, the merit aid from schools like Brandeis and American University decreased. So for my older D, Brandeis would have been the cheaper school if our income was at $180K, but for my younger D, Harvard would have been far lower. Like you, our income was above that threshold–but who knows what might happen when your D applies?
As for standardized testing, I know many great students who did great without extensive prep at all. And other great students who needed a lot of prep to just get their scores high enough to get into honors at their state school. Some kids are great test takers and some need support to learn how. For some, it’s finding the right test–ACT or SAT. Older D was stuck at 650 math on SAT–took ACT without any additional prep and nailed a 35 on the math section.
Both my D’s got accepted to every school they applied to and got the merit scholarships I expected they would. Neither applied to ivies–unless you count Barnard–because we did not feel it was the best fit based on their majors (vocal performance and studio art.) Between the two of them they got talent scholarships/merit money for academics/ leadership at schools like: NYU, Brandeis, GW, American, Muhlenberg, Goucher, and Pratt Institute. Their awards ranged from $11K to $24K per year.
For older D we decided to try to get her costs equivalent to an out- of -state public university. As a NYer, we were not thrilled with our in-state options. D ended up at NYU with a merit talent-based scholarship.
For younger D, we ended up letting her attend NYU as well. She applied ED, so was not eligible for merit aid. We did have her apply to some schools early action, but she turned them down despite scholarship $ because we knew that NYU was a better fit. In the end, the extra money we spent was worth having a happy child in the right program.
Cmsjmt – I’m with you, sort of. The political distinctions of volunteer activities you make is pointless and painful, but I, too, wonder about how much emphasis is put on them by adcoms. We have a family at our school where mom creates the non profit, does most of the work ( and they’re legitimately clever ideas), advertises the work to all the TV stations, and then gets some fluff piece of journalism produced about her kids. They include the link to their work in their apps and voila! – something seemingly more legit than self reported 200 hours at the food shelf or if you prefer cmsjmt’s distinctions, working for the NRA! It just seems too easy to make a website and create a non-profit. I can’t imagine the adcoms vetting all of these claims, thus, I’d imagine they look at even the most legitimate, sincere, heartfelt service claims with a jaded eye and a grain of salt. Grades, scores, letters of rec are certainly legit. The marginally talented ghost writer can put out great pieces with the requisite slight imperfections in the voice of a rich, articulate, but humble and insightful 17 year old. Adcoms have to know this is being done by some, so it makes me wonder how much stock they put into the essays. The kids have to get their own grades, they have to take their own standardized tests ( even if the wealthy are tutored) and the letters of rec are likely to be legit. Athletic excellence is easily verified by the coaches doing the recruiting. Everything else seems open to being falsified. I’m not sure how this applies to the OP’s question. Seems we’ve gone a little tangential here.
With the exception of maybe helping the illegal immigrants, the rest of them are pretty non-political. Working at humane society (animals, for crying out loud, are NOT POLITICAL) or helping the disadvantaged are not liberal issues. Besides, you can find conservative activities if those are too “liberal.” Join TeamPact, or whatever that one is. Start an anti-abortion club. Civil Air Patrol ain’t political. Do church activities if you’re with affiliated with one. Working as a student intern for Hillary Clinton - now that might be a liberal activity. Being one for Bill Clinton, well I won’t get into what activity that would be considered… jk.
Today, for a family of 4 and 1 in college and ZERO asset, 180K income is not 18K for Harvard, it’s $34,300. Only if there are 3 kids in college (family of 4, ZERO asset) then it will drop to about $18K.
This is Harvard, which, probably, is the most generous among the elite schools. Outside of HYPS, if your income is near 200K, you are for the most part full pay.
Preach it @blossom!
Unfortunately, no one will believe you, because it is not quantifiable, and you can not buy your way to intellectual curiosity the way you can buy a couple points on the SAT by having a tutor and taking the test five or six times, or by having a house in the “right” suburb where the “right” high school has 47 AP classes and a compliant administration. The kids that I know who are going to very competitive schools are just like you describe. They did not kill themselves in high school, because they did stuff they liked.
…and some of these very top kids from the top HS’s are not even applying to any competitive colleges. Their position is: " I do not have to, I can do fine anywhere". Instead of going thru all this circles with Elite colleges, they are spending their efforts on finding the place that would fit them perfectly and maybe getting accepted to the programs at state school that have higher selectivity than Ivy’s simply because such programs have the built in opportunities that are not open to a general student body. And attending tuition free is not such a bad idea anyway, so why to pay for a college if you earn by your hard work to attend tuition free in a program that will beat the attractiveness of any Ivy?
@2018dad There was a point that those below a specific cutoff were paying 10% of income–whereas if a family was above the cutoff, they would be full-pay. And prior to the expansion of financial aid to more upper middle class families, those above $125K or so were not getting aid at all or very little of it.
Obviously, I am talking in generalities. And I am not saying what the exact numbers are today.
The point I was making is that the OP is concerned with things far in the future and that policies can change, as can income and circumstances.
I would not close doors for a student on the assumption of what financial aid might be in 5 years from now. Yes, frank discussions about financial responsibility are important. But I would not encourage a very capable child to not try in high school because of what the parent surmises will be the financial aid at a more highly ranked school five years from now.
OP, I’m sure your 8th grade D is a sweet, kind-hearted and intelligent young lady. Please make sure she stays that way! Take a step back and just enjoy this time, because it goes by very fast. She’s only in middle school and has lots of maturing to do in the next few years. Not to say that you shouldn’t be thinking about college, but a lot can happen and change in the next few years.
About the “worth” question: if your values perceive the cost to be worth it, then it is worth it. If not, then it is not. This may be oversimplified, but I like to not overcomplicated things. Run the NPCs and figure out what you will be willing to pay towards her college.
For both my Ds, college was talked about as a “when” and not an “if”. Today, one is a junior at a top 15 school and the other is Ivy bound this fall (which came completely out of left field). Our approach was as follows: They drove the train and we helped them. Not the other way around.
Other unsolicited HS advice: (feel free to ignore!)
"CMS- your list is hysterical. My staunchly Republican child had an arms length of Republican-type candidates, elected officials, and causes for whom he’d worked (paid and volunteered). "
Ditto. CMS, my kid was a Republican councilman and volunteered for a Republican state senator. And got into a top 20 university. Quite simply, you’re making it up if you think that adcoms value liberal causes more. Being interested and engaged in the world around you is the key.
My Dad was a engineer who volunteered to design and build water transportation systems in Guatemala. He would have been mortified to be labelled a “liberal” for it!
We are lucky to live in California. Thus, our Berkeley is the top choice, above Stanford/Harvard. Exactly for the financial reasons.